Male violence against women in the UK

[alex397]

However, there were less issues at workplaces because fewer women were at work, and those that were more likely to be in a single sex environment, more men (and women) with mental health issues were kept in institutions rather than 'care in the community' and the social norm later at night was for women to walk/travel with a male escort of some description.

But I’m sure if you looked at it in proportion, a higher percentage of women were probably subject to harassment than to today. Women arnt seen as a ‘weaker’ sex anymore (and by weaker I’m talking about mentally weaker) and there is more legislation and company policies against inappropriate behaviour.

Your post also doesn’t get away from the fact that violence, and sexual violence, towards women was not talked about, and men got away with it much more easily.
And some of the lower level violence, like slapping a wife if she steps out of line, was socially acceptable. That is totally unacceptable now. Well, amongst developed societies anyway.

 

[AlterEgo]

I have to say it’s quite depressing for a poster to open a discussion on the subject of violence towards women by men, and for so many of the posts in the thread by men to be on the topics of:

Feeling offended by the existence of the discussion

“It was worse 100 years ago”

“What about men getting badly treated too?”

There’s been almost no discussion, or even recognition, that women almost unanimously report feeling unsafe or harassed far too often in our society. As with almost all issues surrounding gender and sex, this is men’s problem to resolve and most of us are simply not interested at all.

 

[RT4038]

But I’m sure if you looked at it in proportion, a higher percentage of women were probably subject to harassment than to today. Women arnt seen as a ‘weaker’ sex anymore (and by weaker I’m talking about mentally weaker) and there is more legislation and company policies against inappropriate behaviour.

However, there was no social media, texting, and the use of the telephone was much less than today.

Your post also doesn’t get away from the fact that violence, and sexual violence, towards women was not talked about, and men got away with it much more easily.
And some of the lower level violence, like slapping a wife if she steps out of line, was socially acceptable. That is totally unacceptable now. Well, amongst developed societies anyway.

I rather suspect that levels are fairly similar, however manifesting themselves in different ways. There are still some sections of our society where slapping a wife is she steps out of line is not that unusual, however totally unacceptable other sections may find it.

I have to say it’s quite depressing for a poster to open a discussion on the subject of violence towards women by men, and for so many of the posts in the thread by men to be on the topics of:

Feeling offended by the existence of the discussion

“It was worse 100 years ago”

“What about men getting badly treated too?”

There’s been almost no discussion, or even recognition, that women almost unanimously report feeling unsafe or harassed far too often in our society. As with almost all issues surrounding gender and sex, this is men’s problem to resolve and most of us are simply not interested at all.

Women would like it to be a problem for men to resolve, but I suspect it is an issue requiring serious compromise on both sides. I am not surprised that most men are simply not interested at all, because it doesn't affect them particularly, and they feel they are not perpetrators.

Frankly I have not seen any proposed resolution that does not involve men's thoughts and actions being closely controlled by women (being the arbiters of unsafe and harassment). This is moving away from equality towards hegemony. Resolution can only be achieved by elimination, incarceration and/or subjugation.

 

[backontrack]

I have to say it’s quite depressing for a poster to open a discussion on the subject of violence towards women by men, and for so many of the posts in the thread by men to be on the topics of:

Feeling offended by the existence of the discussion

“It was worse 100 years ago”

“What about men getting badly treated too?”

There’s been almost no discussion, or even recognition, that women almost unanimously report feeling unsafe or harassed far too often in our society. As with almost all issues surrounding gender and sex, this is men’s problem to resolve and most of us are simply not interested at all.

Thank you.

I'm staying off the forum for now as I've had a horrible headache all day - a throbbing, slimy slug of a thing has lodged itself above my nose and eyes - but thank you for articulating this.

It's all been so tiring, this week. I'm emotionally drained. And I'm a man.

Frankly I have not seen any proposed resolution that does not involve men's thoughts and actions being closely controlled by women (being the arbiters of unsafe and harassment). This is moving away from equality towards hegemony. Resolution can only be achieved by elimination, incarceration and/or subjugation.

What thoughts and actions are you worried about surrendering, then?

And no, there's not going to be a curfew. It's just a rhetorical point someone made once. You know, like people do on internet forums?

Screw this. Screw everything. I'm going back to bed.

 

[peters]

“What about men getting badly treated too?”

In some cases that's exactly the same problem. If a drug addict intends to rob someone, a woman may be the unlucky victim or it may be a man or it could be they rob a woman and a man. If you want to make the streets safer for women, then the issue needs addressing. If you want to make the streets safer for men, then the issue needs addressing. If you look at women specific issues then you ignore that problem and don't do as much as you can to make the streets safer for women.

And some of the lower level violence, like slapping a wife if she steps out of line, was socially acceptable. That is totally unacceptable now. Well, amongst developed societies anyway.

There was a social experiment done on this, which was shown on the BBC a few years back. An arguing couple (male + female played by actors) walk into a crowded public park, one demands the other hands over their phone and when they refuse they get slapped, they then walk out of the park. It was done twice at different times. The first time the man took the role of the person who shouted at his partner and slapping her, around 30 get up and follow them out of the park and start asking is the woman OK and having a go at the man for treating his partner in a disgraceful manner. The second time the woman took the role of the abusive partner and no-one took any action when they saw her slap her partner. The words said were exactly the same both times. They then sent someone back into the park the second time to ask people why they didn't do anything and people responded with comments like "Oh we thought he'd probably been an arsehole and she was probably just putting him in his place."

I thought the use of genetic modification was interesting.

Given what happened to Alan Turing when he was injected with chemicals, is that really a sensible proposal?

This is moving away from equality towards hegemony.

Originally feminism was seen about equality for women e.g. the right to vote. Now it seems feminism isn't about equality but making things better for women and that can include campaigning to make things better for women when women are already being treated equally i.e. women getting preferential treatment.

 

[21C101]

more men (and women) with mental health issues were kept in institutions rather than 'care in the community' and the social norm later at night was for women to walk/travel with a male escort of some description

Care in the community is a good call. While some people were most wrongly kept in institutions, and modern antidepressants have helped enormously, care in the community was just a good excuse to cut healthcare costs by booting people out of institutions and leaving them to fend for themselves.

One of the huge Banstead mental hospitals was flattened and turned into a prison. It was joked bleakly that it housed the same inmates as the hospital had previously.

The saving to the health service has resutled in huge and overwhelming costs to the police, courts, prisons and social services and much misery for both many inadequate people and their victims.

My recollection is that Kenneth Clarke implemented this under Thatcher, it is less well known that the conceiving and intellectual heft in developing and championing it came from Enoch Powell.

I quote from Powells Water Tower speech of 1961 when he had Matt Hancocks job of Health Minister "There they stand, isolated, majestic, imperious, brooded over by the gigantic water-tower and chimney combined, rising unmistakable and daunting out of the countryside – the asylums which our forefathers built with such immense solidity to express the notions of their day. Do not for a moment underestimate their powers of resistance to our assault”

"Powell then expressed the need for ruthlessness in preparing these provisions, and to reduce the number of mental health beds by 50%."

It wasn't just railways that Macmillans government went after.

Enoch Powell’s 1961 Water Tower Speech – Cane Hill Hospital

www.canehill.org

 

[birchesgreen]

Women would like it to be a problem for men to resolve, but I suspect it is an issue requiring serious compromise on both sides. I am not surprised that most men are simply not interested at all, because it doesn't affect them particularly, and they feel they are not perpetrators.

For interest, what "serious compromises" do you think women should make, to not have to live in fear for just... being alive?

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

I have to say it’s quite depressing for a poster to open a discussion on the subject of violence towards women by men, and for so many of the posts in the thread by men to be on the topics of:

Feeling offended by the existence of the discussion

“It was worse 100 years ago”

“What about men getting badly treated too?”

There’s been almost no discussion, or even recognition, that women almost unanimously report feeling unsafe or harassed far too often in our society. As with almost all issues surrounding gender and sex, this is men’s problem to resolve and most of us are simply not interested at all.

That's an excellent and, in my opinion, accurate response to some of the comments. Might I suggest that any forum member who has daughters ask them about the
occasions when they might have felt unsafe. It may be a subject that has not been broached before and could well be an eye-opener.

 

[alex397]

There was a social experiment done on this, which was shown on the BBC a few years back. An arguing couple (male + female played by actors) walk into a crowded public park, one demands the other hands over their phone and when they refuse they get slapped, they then walk out of the park. It was done twice at different times. The first time the man took the role of the person who shouted at his partner and slapping her, around 30 get up and follow them out of the park and start asking is the woman OK and having a go at the man for treating his partner in a disgraceful manner. The second time the woman took the role of the abusive partner and no-one took any action when they saw her slap her partner. The words said were exactly the same both times. They then sent someone back into the park the second time to ask people why they didn't do anything and people responded with comments like "Oh we thought he'd probably been an arsehole and she was probably just putting him in his place."

Ive seen this before too, and I do think that domestic abuse towards men is underreported and still not talked about no where near enough. Society largely still seems to think men need to ‘man up’ and so on. It’s an issue which needs to be tackled. However, this thread is about violence towards women from men, and this doesn’t get away from the fact that it was acceptable for men to hit their partners. I said this in reaction to a couple of posters suggesting how the change in moral attitudes from the 60s onwards have made things worse for women, which I disagree strongly with.

 

[peters]

Ive seen this before too, and I do think that domestic abuse towards men is underreported and still not talked about no where near enough. Society largely still seems to think men need to ‘man up’ and so on. It’s an issue which needs to be tackled. However, this thread is about violence towards women from men, and this doesn’t get away from the fact that it was acceptable for men to hit their partners. I said this in reaction to a couple of posters suggesting how the change in moral attitudes from the 60s onwards have made things worse for women, which I disagree strongly with.

I think the social experiment demonstrated two things. One being the point you mention. The other being both men and women generally do take action if they see a women being mistreated. The opening post mentions men taking responsibility for their mates and I think it is just that - the mates of the men who commit inappropriate acts against women are the ones who probably know about it and are protecting their mates and in doing so are letting women get abused. Most men would take whatever action they feel is appropriate in response to seeing or hearing about a woman being abused, they don't need training on it, it's their natural instinct to protect.

 

[RT4038]

For interest, what "serious compromises" do you think women should make, to not have to live in fear for just... being alive?

Please see my post #51. There was good reason why, in the past in this country and still today in some societies, women only went outside any distance chaperoned by a trusted male. Women in this country demanded an end to this practice and are now reaping what thy have sown, for both good (freedom) and bad (fear). Contrary to some opinion this practice was not entirely connected with controlling the women, but for their safety and to allay their fears. This was not only protection from robbery.

Men are physically stronger than women. Both men and women have an inbuilt urge for sexual relations and reproduction (just like every other living creature on this Earth). However, the human social conditioning is such that this takes place on a mutual basis, which leaves some (of either sex) without the urge being fulfilled. For males, however, their strength can assist when the mutual basis is unavailable.

So, unless the thoughts and actions of men can be fully controlled by the female agenda [like a reverse Stepford Wives], some compromise to the current situation will be required for men to fulfill their urges and dissipate the requirement for violence. Post #1 quotes 97% of YOUNG women (18-24) in the UK have been sexually harassed, according to UN Women. I can only guess what constitutes sexual harassment, but it must be a pretty low bar including any 'unwanted' attention by a male - wolf whistle, spooky look, asked for a date by someone unwanted, social media message etc. Men must only speak when they are spoken to?

Posters are adept at telling us all about the fears of women and they should not have to endure this. Naturally I have sympathy, however, they are very short of practical ideas to achieve such a goal on an equality basis rather than female hegemony and male subjection.

 

[DDB]

Please see my post #51. There was good reason why, in the past in this country and still today in some societies, women only went outside any distance chaperoned by a trusted male. Women in this country demanded an end to this practice and are now reaping what thy have sown, for both good (freedom) and bad (fear). Contrary to some opinion this practice was not entirely connected with controlling the women, but for their safety and to allay their fears. This was not only protection from robbery.

Men are physically stronger than women. Both men and women have an inbuilt urge for sexual relations and reproduction (just like every other living creature on this Earth). However, the human social conditioning is such that this takes place on a mutual basis, which leaves some (of either sex) without the urge being fulfilled. For males, however, their strength can assist when the mutual basis is unavailable.

So, unless the thoughts and actions of men can be fully controlled by the female agenda [like a reverse Stepford Wives], some compromise to the current situation will be required for men to fulfill their urges and dissipate the requirement for violence. Post #1 quotes 97% of YOUNG women (18-24) in the UK have been sexually harassed, according to UN Women. I can only guess what constitutes sexual harassment, but it must be a pretty low bar including any 'unwanted' attention by a male - wolf whistle, spooky look, asked for a date by someone unwanted, social media message etc. Men must only speak when they are spoken to?

Posters are adept at telling us all about the fears of women and they should not have to endure this. Naturally I have sympathy, however, they are very short of practical ideas to achieve such a goal on an equality basis rather than female hegemony and male subjection.

Where to start with this? This post seems to be entirely victum blaming. You imply women bring it on themselves by wanting to go out without requiring an escort?

Dismissing harresement as low level, presumably you mean that it is OK. Yelling at people in the street is OK as you seem to think wolf whistling is OK. Your use of quote marks around unwanted is particularly telling. Presumably these women brought it on themselves but not covering thier ankles and therfore we poor men can't help ourselves.

He is a practical idea. Men should call this nonsense out whever they see it. That's what I'm doing here. I will also be reporting your post.

 

[DB]

Care in the community is a good call. While some people were most wrongly kept in institutions, and modern antidepressants have helped enormously, care in the community was just a good excuse to cut healthcare costs by booting people out of institutions and leaving them to fend for themselves.

One of the huge Banstead mental hospitals was flattened and turned into a prison. It was joked bleakly that it housed the same inmates as the hospital had previously.

The saving to the health service has resutled in huge and overwhelming costs to the police, courts, prisons and social services and much misery for both many inadequate people and their victims.

You seem to be implying that people with mental health problems are likely to be perpetrators of violence.

This is completely incorrect - statistically, they are far more likely to be victims of violence.

 

[yorkie]

You seem to be implying that people with mental health problems are likely to be perpetrators of violence.

I don't think @21C101 was implying that they thought this to be the case.

Where to start with this? This post seems to be entirely victum blaming. You imply women bring it on themselves by wanting to go out without requiring an escort?

Dismissing harresement as low level, presumably you mean that it is OK. Yelling at people in the street is OK as you seem to think wolf whistling is OK. Your use of quote marks around unwanted is particularly telling. Presumably these women brought it on themselves but not covering thier ankles and therfore we poor men can't help ourselves.

He is a practical idea. Men should call this nonsense out whever they see it. That's what I'm doing here.

Good post; agreed.

I will also be reporting your post.

To be clear, if anyone believes a post breaches forum rules we do ask that it is reported but it is very important not to refer to it (such as by quoting it, replying to it) in any way on any forum thread.

Please see my post #51. There was good reason why, in the past in this country and still today in some societies, women only went outside any distance chaperoned by a trusted male. Women in this country demanded an end to this practice and are now reaping what thy have sown, for both good (freedom) and bad (fear).

I strongly disagree with this; it sounds like victim blaming to me.

I can only guess what constitutes sexual harassment, but it must be a pretty low bar including any 'unwanted' attention by a male - wolf whistle...

Is unacceptable behaviour, simple as that.

Posters are adept at telling us all about the fears of women and they should not have to endure this. Naturally I have sympathy...

If you do, I would consider how you post, as parts of your post do not sound very sympathetic. Perhaps that is not how you intend to come across but I do not intepret your above quotes as having "sympathy"

 

[Strathclyder]

I have to say it’s quite depressing for a poster to open a discussion on the subject of violence towards women by men, and for so many of the posts in the thread by men to be on the topics of:

Feeling offended by the existence of the discussion

“It was worse 100 years ago”

“What about men getting badly treated too?”

There’s been almost no discussion, or even recognition, that women almost unanimously report feeling unsafe or harassed far too often in our society. As with almost all issues surrounding gender and sex, this is men’s problem to resolve and most of us are simply not interested at all.

Beat me to it and said it better than I could ever hope to. This incident left me feeling disgusted, angered and depressed me in equal measure; some of the posts in this thread have done little to help ease those feelings. It's why I tend to keep out of such subjects as the responses from some quarters invariably leave me depressed, hacked off and repulsed.

To those in said quarters, I say this in the nicest possible terms (e.g, without cursing a blue streak): this is a systemic issue in our society, full stop. Downplaying/ignoring it and playing the 'victim blame' soundbyte only allows the rot to set in even further. If you don't want to be seen as part of the problem, then become a part of the solution. At the very least, you can start by calling this BS out when you see it, no matter how low on the scale it is. Not earth-shattering, but it's a damn sight better than playing that wretched 'victim blame' soundbyte for the upteempth time.

 

[GusB]

Please see my post #51. There was good reason why, in the past in this country and still today in some societies, women only went outside any distance chaperoned by a trusted male. Women in this country demanded an end to this practice and are now reaping what thy have sown, for both good (freedom) and bad (fear). Contrary to some opinion this practice was not entirely connected with controlling the women, but for their safety and to allay their fears. This was not only protection from robbery.

Men are physically stronger than women. Both men and women have an inbuilt urge for sexual relations and reproduction (just like every other living creature on this Earth). However, the human social conditioning is such that this takes place on a mutual basis, which leaves some (of either sex) without the urge being fulfilled. For males, however, their strength can assist when the mutual basis is unavailable.

So, unless the thoughts and actions of men can be fully controlled by the female agenda [like a reverse Stepford Wives], some compromise to the current situation will be required for men to fulfill their urges and dissipate the requirement for violence. Post #1 quotes 97% of YOUNG women (18-24) in the UK have been sexually harassed, according to UN Women. I can only guess what constitutes sexual harassment, but it must be a pretty low bar including any 'unwanted' attention by a male - wolf whistle, spooky look, asked for a date by someone unwanted, social media message etc. Men must only speak when they are spoken to?

Posters are adept at telling us all about the fears of women and they should not have to endure this. Naturally I have sympathy, however, they are very short of practical ideas to achieve such a goal on an equality basis rather than female hegemony and male subjection.

^^ This is where the problem lies.

 

[Class465pacer]

Victim blaming is disgusting.

 

[hst43102]

I'm going to make an attempt at putting a slight alternative spin on this matter; one that seems to be ignored by the press and social media.

I'm a young male. I'm around 5'3 tall, and my weight is <60 kg, which makes me smaller than quite a lot of women. Not disabled or impaired in any way or form other than wearing glasses.

The ONE thing that I don't really stand with the "justice for women" side of this topic on, is that somehow ALL women can't go out without fear of getting attacked and ALL men are perfectly safe if they go outside after dark. I've never had any bad experiences myself, but smaller male members of my family and friends have been mugged and assaulted before, so as such I always stick to the safest areas if I'm going out after dark. One man I know, who is about my size and was previously homeless, was assaulted and robbed on a near daily basis whilst living on the streets. It's not just an issue for women.
Without victim blaming in any way, perhaps this would be the best short term solution to this incredibly important issue?
Obviously this does nothing to combat the awful harassment and sexual assaults that women have to put up with all the time. It's time for ALL of society to get behind this cause and make sure that this generation of men who think this behaviour is acceptable to be the last.

 

[birchesgreen]

Please see my post #51.

Is this a wind-up?

Anyway maybe we should be looking into what we can do to help the proportion of man who are the kind of slavering beasts which you paint rather than subjugating half the population.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Victim blaming is disgusting.

It is indeed disgusting. But... are you talking in general terms, or are you saying that some people in this thread are victim blaming? I'm curious because I've seen several posts in this thread complaining about victim-blaming, and also seen some general complaints in the media about victim blaming. Yet I don't recall seeing anything that looks like actual victim-blaming anywhere in the current political discussion - which makes me think it's a bit of a straw man. (Admittedly I've only skimmed through bits of this thread so I may have missed something).

Beat me to it and said it better than I could ever hope to. This incident left me feeling disgusted, angered and depressed me in equal measure; some of the posts in this thread have done little to help ease those feelings. It's why I tend to keep out of such subjects as the responses from some quarters invariably leave me depressed, hacked off and repulsed.

The murder of Sarah Everard was absolutely awful and I feel the same way as you about it. And it has brought to light that clearly something needs to be done about sexual harassment and to make women feel safer - it's really unacceptable for anyone, male or female, to feel unable or unsafe to live a normal life of going out and about.

At the same time, I feel a lot of the political discussion seems to be getting bogged down in feelings of disgust - which is understandable because it's a very raw and emotive issue - but I don't think that disgust should prevent discussion of the what has caused the current situation and of whether the all of the political response is entirely appropriate - which is in part what I think you're seeing in this discussion. It's perfectly possible to feel utterly appalled both by what has happened and by how common sexual harassment appears to be, to passionately want the situation to change, but at the same time to feel slightly uneasy at how some of the resultant political narrative of the last few days seems to be about setting men against women.

To take a slightly different tack - amidst all the expressions of outrage, one thing I haven't yet seen are any practical suggestions for what can realistically be done to improve the situation. Do you - or does anyone - have any suggestions for what the Government or ordinary people should do?

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

Suggestions
Restrict sale of alcohol.
Restrict films depicting violence.
More bobbies on the beat, WALKING!

Changes to education, starting very young.
More supervision of problem families and problem couples.
Media to promote suitable role models.

 

[21C101]

To take a slightly different tack - amidst all the expressions of outrage, one thing I haven't yet seen are any practical suggestions for what can realistically be done to improve the situation. Do you - or does anyone - have any suggestions for what the Government or ordinary people should do?

It is a question that has vexed humanity throughout history.

Unfortunately the current fashion is to expect utopias that solve the unsolvable to appear and then express outrage when they don't, both at the failure of the utopia to appear and at the injustices caused by the authoritarian measures imposed in the cause of trying to create the utopia.

The current outrage at the police is a case in point. In a futile attempt to stop death by a respiratory disease, MPs voted to impose authoritarian measures that banned peaceful protest. They didn't care when the likes of Piers Corbyn were arrested and manhandled.

However as soon as the laws they voted for lead to the same treatment of protestors in a cause they support, these same MPs squeal like stuck pigs. Perhaps they should have thought about that before voting for such authoritarian legislation?

I don't think @21C101 was implying that they thought this to be the case.

I am at a loss as to how a post condemning the abandonment of the mentally ill to fend for themselves to save money is twisted into such an assertion.

 

[yorkie]

I'm going to make an attempt at putting a slight alternative spin on this matter; one that seems to be ignored by the press and social media.

I'm a young male. I'm around 5'3 tall, and my weight is <60 kg, which makes me smaller than quite a lot of women. Not disabled or impaired in any way or form other than wearing glasses.

The ONE thing that I don't really stand with the "justice for women" side of this topic on, is that somehow ALL women can't go out without fear of getting attacked and ALL men are perfectly safe if they go outside after dark. I've never had any bad experiences myself, but smaller male members of my family and friends have been mugged and assaulted before, so as such I always stick to the safest areas if I'm going out after dark. One man I know, who is about my size and was previously homeless, was assaulted and robbed on a near daily basis whilst living on the streets. It's not just an issue for women.
Without victim blaming in any way, perhaps this would be the best short term solution to this incredibly important issue?
Obviously this does nothing to combat the awful harassment and sexual assaults that women have to put up with all the time. It's time for ALL of society to get behind this cause and make sure that this generation of men who think this behaviour is acceptable to be the last.

Very much agreed.

Is this a wind-up?

It certainly sounds like it! But it probably isn't. I'm not sure which is more disturbing..

Suggestions
Restrict sale of alcohol.

People will get around that

Restrict films depicting violence.

Yes maybe

More bobbies on the beat, WALKING!

Does not solve this problem though; they can't be everywhere

Changes to education, starting very young.

What exactly would you change? What part of education today is inadequate?

More supervision of problem families and problem couples.

But how?

Was the accused from a "problem family" and what does that even mean?

Media to promote suitable role models.

Well that I agree with, but how do you mandate that?

I am at a loss as to how a post condemning the abandonment of the mentally ill to fend for themselves to save money is twisted into such an assertion.

In this case I agree though I will point out with text only mediums misunderstandings are very common; it's not easy to convey tone (though it can be done to some extent with the use of "emoticons"/"smileys") and people sometimes infer meanings that aren't there, or misread certain words or have the wrong interpretation. We've all done it!

 

[D365]

^^ This is where the problem lies.

I don’t want to quote the post in question myself. The final sentence of the second paragraph is extremely concerning.

 

[duncanp]

Suggestions
Restrict sale of alcohol.
Restrict films depicting violence.
More bobbies on the beat, WALKING!

Changes to education, starting very young.
More supervision of problem families and problem couples.
Media to promote suitable role models.

I can't think that restricting the sale of alcohol is going to make much difference.

But a more visible police presence would help, as well as more of a response when cases of sexual harrassment are reported.

Even if the police cannot do much about catching the perpetrator immediately, reporting a case enables them to get a picture of what is happening where.

If a particular area becomes a problem, they could use plain clothes female police officers as decoys to target persistent offenders.

If an offender is caught, they need to be given a sanction which fits the gravity of the offence. This could be an informal warning, a formal caution or prosecution.

Restriction of films showing violence could help, but it is much more difficult to do this in the digital age, where a lot of content is outside the jurisdiction of the UK courts.

I agree that changes to education are the key to addressing the issue of sexual harrassment and violent crime. Children have to be taught that low level harrassment (eg wolf whistling or cat calling) is not socially acceptable. They should also be taught what constitutes consent with regard to sexual intercourse, to avoid the risk of be falsely accused of an offence.

There should also be an information campaign, targeted mainly at men, to try and get them to avoid taking actions which would inadvertently cause women to fear for their safety. For example, if boarding a bus or train, don't sit too close to a lone female (perhaps using the COVID guidelines as a template) unless there are no other seats available. Sitting too close to someone isn't in itself an offence, but you have to be able to see it from the other person's point of view.

 

[RT4038]

Anyway maybe we should be looking into what we can do to help the proportion of man who are the kind of slavering beasts which you paint rather than subjugating half the population.

You are quite right. Unfortunately the 'help' being peddled at the moment is increasing conviction rates (for alleged crimes that are often committed in intimate moments where no witnesses or CCTV cameras are present, so let's believe the women rather than rely on evidence) and increasing punishments, presumably in the vain hope that this will act as a total deterrent. The real issues will not be tackled because they are societal and uncomfortable for many.

Sadly this manifests itself in the belittling or making fun of the issue, such as the 'slavering beasts' reference. Perhaps this is by men who have had perfectly happy relationships throughout their life and/or to those whom violence towards women is a complete unknown and total anathema. There are a good many whose relationships have been rocky and will know it has been difficult, at some point or another, to restrain themselves. Others unfortunately have not been so lucky and succumbed in one way or another. Yet another group (frequently derided) are those who have not been able to form any meaningful relationship for a variety of reasons, or been disappointed, cheated, whatever, and feel that life is passing them by. The response of society to this latter group is of 'hard luck', suspicion and ostracism ('It must be your fault').

None of this excuses violence towards women, but in order to tackle the problem there needs to be an understanding of the issues. It only takes (at worst) a short time to bring a woman fulfillment for the rest of her life. Men are only peripheral to this fulfillment and largely only with the woman's consent. The social (and medical) changes in the last sixty years have marginalised their role and increased competition, without any balancing. Marginalised people, without a meaningful stake in society, can be quite a danger.

Victim blaming is disgusting, but just who are the victims?.....

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Suggestions
Restrict sale of alcohol.
Restrict films depicting violence.
More bobbies on the beat, WALKING!

Changes to education, starting very young.
More supervision of problem families and problem couples.
Media to promote suitable role models.

Thanks, that's good to see some positive suggestions. Even though I see other people have raised issues with some of these particular suggestions, I think coming up with ideas like this is an essential part of making things better in the future.

On restricting films - I would think the problem isn't violence in films in general - it's specifically porn films that present a completely distorted view of sex and of what consent involves. Given that there is a recognised problem of young men getting much of their sexual 'education' from those kinds of films and as a result ending up with no idea of how to treat women in a respectful way in a sexual context, I wonder if there could be a link there with some harassment that happens. But I'm not sure how it'd be possible to restrict such films. Better sexual education about consent etc. may be good too - although I don't really know what is taught at the moment in that regard in schools.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

@DynamicSpirit
Thanks very much.

Perhaps bobbies on the beat could aim to be as common as sandwich-artist establishments. I think Mr Cameron (a nice tory?) was right with his nudge unit. A great suggestion from the BMA some years ago: restrict sales of pointed knives. A bread knife, for example, does not need to have a sharp point. Could have a big impact on domestics where someone takes up a knife in a moment of madness. But the crimes that do not occur are not registered of course,nobody knows..

 

[RT4038]

Thanks, that's good to see some positive suggestions. Even though I see other people have raised issues with some of these particular suggestions, I think coming up with ideas like this is an essential part of making things better in the future.

On restricting films - I would think the problem isn't violence in films in general - it's specifically porn films that present a completely distorted view of sex and of what consent involves. Given that there is a recognised problem of young men getting much of their sexual 'education' from those kinds of films and as a result ending up with no idea of how to treat women in a respectful way in a sexual context, I wonder if there could be a link there with some harassment that happens. But I'm not sure how it'd be possible to restrict such films. Better sexual education about consent etc. may be good too - although I don't really know what is taught at the moment in that regard in schools.

But the same can be said with 'feel good' romance films with sex scenes - men who haven't been able to have such relationships become envious/jealous and believe the only way they can experience such is by force.

 

[21C101]

I don’t want to quote the post in question myself. The final sentence of the second paragraph is extremely concerning.

Why? It is a statement of fact. An uncomfortable fact that the human race has wrestled with and sought to mitigate to a lesser or greater extent throughout history but have never fully overcome.

The issues arising from the physical difference between men and women, the fact that women bear children with all the physical and mental implications (and men don't) together with the problems resulting from the human sex drive (in particular the male sex drive, something shared with much of the animal kingdom, as anyone with a tank of guppies can attest to), have probably taken up more of societies time and effort than any other single thing.

The naievity is in thinking that modern civilization is so clever it can eradicate the problem with enough will.

The parable of Martin Day applies:

Here lies the grave of Martin Day,
Who knew he had the right of way,
He knew it sure,
He knew it strong,
And he is just as dead as if he was wrong.

Is it victim blaming to point out that the Princess of Wales would be alive today if she had worn a seatbelt?

What this sort of thing confronts us with is, that underneath the thin veneer of civilization we are animals, and predatory animals at that. As civilisation becomes ever more technological and all encompassing, we seem less and less unable to cope with that unpleasant reality and increasingly expect an impossible perfection and try to shut out voices who puncture the bubble.