Brexit matters

[21C101]

Begging to join the CPTPP. Where does this come from?

Their fertile imagination? I'm surprised how little comment about CPTPP the government have actually made.

Scratch below the surface of most uber remainers and you discover that what it is really about is handing over power to the enlightened and progressive EU to permanently keep out the Tories (and by extension English "old" establishment) by other means, because they can't persuade the electorate to stop voting them into power, because the electorate, especially in England are too stupid to see the light and believe everything that the Mail, Sun, Express and Telegraph print, without question, which of course is all pro tory propaganda.

Unfortunately trying to sell the EU as enlightened and progressive isn't very easy when it turns out that those most influential in it behave like anti vaccer nutjobs.

 

[najaB]

I'm surprised how little comment about CPTPP the government have actually made.

Ahem.

Formal Request to Commence UK Accession Negotiations to CPTPP

On Monday 1st February, we submitted our notification of intent letter to begin the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership (CPTPP) accession process.

www.gov.uk

 

[21C101]

Donald Trump: “It’s a great vaccine, it’s a safe vaccine, and it’s something that works”. We’ve now reached the point where Trump is adopting a more mature and rational attitude to Covid vaccination than the leaders of the European Union.

©Dan Hodges.

Ahem.

Formal Request to Commence UK Accession Negotiations to CPTPP

On Monday 1st February, we submitted our notification of intent letter to begin the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership (CPTPP) accession process.

www.gov.uk

I said little comment, not no comment.

 

[37424]

Yes, they have deals with the countries, but they aren't seeking to join.

Maybe not but you admit that they do have deals with with some of the countries in CPTPP so your argument "Most of the members are also in the other side of the world and don't need anything from us" would seem a little hollow. I think Australia would like a deal with the EU but find them difficult to deal with No surprises there, and expect it will be the case even for a more sympathetic Biden.

Now I realise I seem to be talking like a full blown Daily Express Brexiteer now but I am actually coming to the conclusion that the EU needs to go and become more of simple trading block again, of course whether there will be enough dissent eventually in EU countries for that to happen I have frankly no idea as I am not the Daily Express which does like to predict the fall of the EU on a daily basis but I'm sure there are many people in EU countries who don't like the way the EU is going or the way the vaccine roll out has been handled.

 

[biko]

This thread is becoming more ridiculous by the minute. It is so clear many people in the UK see the EU as a scapegoat and blame anything that goes wrong in Europe and beyond to the EU. I am absolutely no fan of Ursula von der Leyen but I see the EU is really needed for trade but also for tackling problems that are international, such as climate change.

Donald Trump: “It’s a great vaccine, it’s a safe vaccine, and it’s something that works”. We’ve now reached the point where Trump is adopting a more mature and rational attitude to Covid vaccination than the leaders of the European Union.

©Dan Hodges

This is an example of such wrong attribution of faults to the EU. The EU leaders didn’t say anything about that any vaccine wouldn’t be great. Funnily enough, the whole saga of countries stopping using AstraZeneca (also a Swedish company btw) is because each country is independent. The EMA is still saying it is very safe but because some national regulators have doubts, those countries have stopped using it.

The EU vaccination strategy is nothing more than collective purchase to make sure they have a better negotiating position than individual countries. That is of course no advantage to France, Germany or UK (if you would still been inside it) but mainly for counties like Luxembourg and poorer ones like Bulgaria. Take my home country as an example: the Netherlands. The reason why vaccination is so slow is because we have a minister who is incapable of organising anything and we have all kinds of decentralised organisations who want to organise it in a different way.

Maybe not but you admit that they do have deals with with some of the countries in CPTPP so your argument "Most of the members are also in the other side of the world and don't need anything from us" would seem a little hollow. I think Australia would like a deal with the EU but find them difficult to deal with No surprises there, and expect it will be the case even for a more sympathetic Biden.

Now I realise I seem to be talking like a full blown Daily Express Brexiteer now but I am actually coming to the conclusion that the EU needs to go and become more of simple trading block again, of course whether there will be enough dissent eventually in EU countries for that to happen I have frankly no idea as I am not the Daily Express which does like to predict the fall of the EU on a daily basis but I'm sure there are many people in EU countries who don't like the way the EU is going or the way the vaccine roll out has been handled.

I don’t think that will happen. Today there are Dutch elections and probably a new pan-European party will be voted in parliament for the first time. This party is openly supporting a United States of Europe. But as there are also opposite opinions, I think it will probably remain about the same for many years to come. Actually nearly anybody in Europe thinks the EU should take a lead in tackling climate change for example, so going back to just trade seems unrealistic.

 

[REVUpminster]

Has the EU collective bargaining got them the Phizer jab any cheaper?

 

[VauxhallandI]

Has the EU collective bargaining got them the Phizer jab any cheaper?

That would probably be commercially confidential information. Real world stuff you know, not relevant to Brextieers

 

[REVUpminster]

That would probably be commercially confidential information. Real world stuff you know, not relevant to Brextieers

What have phizer and the EU to hide? Have they undercut third world countries?

 

[AlterEgo]

Has the EU collective bargaining got them the Phizer jab any cheaper?

Who cares? At the moment the lack of progress with vaccinations is leading to deaths that otherwise wouldn't happen in some very developed European countries. Meanwhile, sensible Brits think vaccines are Brilliant and A Good Thing and our uptake of the vaccine is enormous, especially in the most clinically important groups.

They want to stick one over Boris and the Brexiteers so badly they'll do anything to undermine confidence in the vaccines. We even had one person on this thread say he wouldn't have the vaccine solely because Boris said it was fine. How do you even reason with people like that? Bonkers, head's-gone stuff.

I voted Remain but I'd never, ever vote to rejoin.

 

[ainsworth74]

What have phizer and the EU to hide? Have they undercut third world countries?

That's quite a lot of tin foil you're wearing there! Lots of companies and governments, including our own, will refuse to release information on the grounds that it's commercially sensitive. 'Twas ever thus!

 

[biko]

Has the EU collective bargaining got them the Phizer jab any cheaper?

It is commercially sensitive information as the other posters also mentioned, but a Belgian minister leaked the prices the EU paid. The EU paid €15.50 per dose of the Pfizer vaccine, which is less than the US did ($19 or close to that). Don’t think the price the UK paid is known.

 

[jon0844]

It is commercially sensitive information as the other posters also mentioned, but a Belgian minister leaked the prices the EU paid. The EU paid €15.50 per dose of the Pfizer vaccine, which is less than the US did ($19 or close to that). Don’t think the price the UK paid is known.

For the UK, we'd need an additional breakdown of how much we pay and how much is kicked back to the Tory party!

 

[21C101]

While on the subject of Pious compliance with international law. Latest from Ms Von Der Leyen, EU President:

"Von der Leyen says the EU could seize production of vaccines and suspend intellectual property rights. 'All options are on the table. We are in the crisis of the century and I'm not ruling out anything for now. We have to make sure Europeans are vaccinated as soon as possible.'"

https://mobile.twitter.com/nickgutteridge/status/1372156152822312961

 

[class ep-09]

While on the subject of Pious compliance with international law. Latest from Ms Von Der Leyen, EU President:

"Von der Leyen says the EU could seize production of vaccines and suspend intellectual property rights. 'All options are on the table. We are in the crisis of the century and I'm not ruling out anything for now. We have to make sure Europeans are vaccinated as soon as possible.'"

https://mobile.twitter.com/nickgutteridge/status/1372156152822312961

Even the EU have a trade deal with some of CPTPP countries so even they clearly think there is some benefit to it.
[/QUO

Perhaps EU decided yo look after their own first ( finally ).

BTW- UK left the EU, why are you still so hooked up to what is happening on The Continent , while there is massive problem inside of the UK?

I guess - you must be obsessed with the EU , and hate it so much that you cling on to any negative ( in your mind ) piece of information to reaffirm your conviction .

I think , obsessions can be treated but one has to admit to it first .

While on the subject of Pious compliance with international law. Latest from Ms Von Der Leyen, EU President:

"Von der Leyen says the EU could seize production of vaccines and suspend intellectual property rights. 'All options are on the table. We are in the crisis of the century and I'm not ruling out anything for now. We have to make sure Europeans are vaccinated as soon as possible.'"

https://mobile.twitter.com/nickgutteridge/status/1372156152822312961

Perhaps EU decided yo look after their own first ( finally ).

BTW- UK left the EU, why are you still so hooked up to what is happening on The Continent , while there is massive problem inside of the UK?

I guess - you must be obsessed with the EU , and hate it so much that you cling on to any negative ( in your mind ) piece of information to reaffirm your conviction .

I think , obsessions can be treated but one has to admit to it first .[/QUOTE]

 

[37424]

Deleted

 

[class ep-09]

.

I'm not obsessed by it I was quite happy to remain in the EU at the time of the vote, however now we have left I have no inclination to re-join and I'm getting fed up of Remainers whinging about it. We need to get on with and make it work.
[/QUOTE]

I did not reply to your post but another member , did I?

 

[AlterEgo]

Amazing to find the few holdouts who believe the EU’s actions around the vaccine are defensible.

 

[class ep-09]

I'm not obsessed by it I was quite happy to remain in the EU at the time of the vote, however now we have left I have no inclination to re-join and I'm getting fed up of Remainers whinging about it. We need to get on with and make it work.

I did reply to a post of another member , not yours .

 

[37424]

I did reply to a post of another member , not yours .

OK sorry but with some of your use of quotes its not that easy to tell

 

[class ep-09]

Amazing to find the few holdouts who believe the EU’s actions around the vaccine are defensible.

Depends on point of view .

I do not defend the EU but I think that if they need to stop exports to outside of the EU to vaccinate EU citizens first , they should (34 mil of vaccines have been exported to other countries so far ) .

OK sorry but with some of your use of quotes its not that easy to tell

Work in progress , still learning how to use the editing system in this forum )

 

[37424]

Depends on point of view .

I do not defend the EU but I think that if they need to stop exports to outside of the EU to vaccinate EU citizens first , they should (34 mil of vaccines have been exported to other countries so far ) .



Work in progress , still learning how to use the editing system in this forum )

If other countries have ordered vaccines before them no they shouldn't really, it looks like we stop other countries getting a vaccine due to our own incompetance, and if say the EU stop the Pfizer to the UK then that could have major implications for people due to get a second jab in the UK. Also if I was vaccine manufacturer who had been prevented from sending my orders to my customers by the EU or any other country for that matter I might well be looking to move my production elsewhere when this over.

 

[class ep-09]

If other countries have ordered vaccines before them no they shouldn't really, it looks like we stop other countries getting a vaccine due to our own incompetance, and if say the EU stop the Pfizer to the UK then that could have major implications for people due to get a second jab in the UK. Also if I was vaccine manufacturer who had been prevented from sending my orders to my customers by the EU or any other country for that matter I might well be looking to move my production elsewhere when this over.

I am listening ...
You almost convinced me that I may be wrong )

 

[brad465]

The thing that annoys me most about this whole vaccine row, is that none of the players involved can see they've already lost. Neither the EU, us , the US or anyone involved in supplying and distrusting vaccines in this country has or will win. Why? Because China has already won (well the CCP specifically). First by showing the world its police state way of handling a pandemic, the only reason we're all so reliant on these vaccines in the first place, and secondly, they're already back to growth and rapid progression while we're all fighting amongst ourselves

 

[AlterEgo]

Depends on point of view .

I do not defend the EU but I think that if they need to stop exports to outside of the EU to vaccinate EU citizens first , they should (34 mil of vaccines have been exported to other countries so far ) .

You don’t defend the EU ...except where you just did. Just accept that if the UK was doing the same thing - halting exports, briefing against AZ, undermining vaccine confidence - because it totally fouled up it’s procurement strategy, you’d find it disgusting and self interested.

The EU’s actions are going to cost thousands of preventable deaths.

 

[Domh245]

I do not defend the EU but I think that if they need to stop exports to outside of the EU to vaccinate EU citizens first , they should (34 mil of vaccines have been exported to other countries so far ) .

They aren't the EU's vaccines to stop exports of though. The vaccines that they're threatening to block have all been purchased by other nations and are "theirs" from the minute Pfizer starts manufacturing them - that plant supplies pretty much all countries bar the US with that vaccine, and has been backed & developed on that basis. If the EU had said (or even threatened) back in 2020 that it'd consider blocking exports then Pfizer would have put a lot more effort into setting up additional production facilities elsewhere - indeed that's half the reason that plant is doing vaccines, as Trump had threatened to (and eventually did) force US domestic vaccine production to solely supply the US.

 

[najaB]

Maybe not but you admit that they do have deals with with some of the countries in CPTPP so your argument "Most of the members are also in the other side of the world and don't need anything from us" would seem a little hollow.

Okay, sorry. "They don't need anything like an additional £200 billion worth of stuff from us above what they already do" would be more accurate.

Take my home country as an example: the Netherlands. The reason why vaccination is so slow is because we have a minister who is incapable of organising anything and we have all kinds of decentralised organisations who want to organise it in a different way.

Indeed. As I've said repeatedly, the reason the UK has been so successful in rolling out vaccinations is because we have (for now at least) the NHS. Health provision in Europe is much more fragmented.

 

[REVUpminster]

The crisis in the EU of demanding a vaccine they have successfully convinced their people is unsafe is a perfect example of how the EU works. British farmers and fishermen have known this for years.

 

[jon0844]

The crisis in the EU of demanding a vaccine they have successfully convinced their people is unsafe is a perfect example of how the EU works. British farmers and fishermen have known this for years.

It's going to be such great fun seeing how both sides defend the current woes.

AstraZeneca have hit supply problems and there's now a delay on the UK vaccination programme, which will be spun by the press to be down to the EU. The Government is already playing it down, saying everything will still be on target even if vaccines slow in April.

Let's hope that's true, but of course there has been a lot of bragging about getting ahead of schedule, so however you spin it - slowing vaccinations means less vaccinations. You just had sufficient padding in your timetable!

There may be questions about whether the UK were prepared for the second wave of jabs now due, and it won't be helped if the EU plays silly buggers with the Pfizer supplies.

At the end of the day, we're 'free' of the EU so they're doing what they need to do, and we're doing what we need to do.

I can already see the front page headlines on tomorrow's papers in my head. Isn't going to be good for the EU, who I expect will shoulder most or all of the blame. Can't possibly be us doing anything wrong.

 

[brad465]

The crisis in the EU of demanding a vaccine they have successfully convinced their people is unsafe is a perfect example of how the EU works. British farmers and fishermen have known this for years.

While I believe we were better off in the EU, I take a “Eurosceptic Remainer” attitude, because what you describe here is the EU endorsing the capitalist/neoliberalist model that is behind the protectionism at the centre of this vaccine rollout row. Basically capitalism is the ultimate failed system here that all of the EU, us and other western countries have and are relying on the vaccine to maintain capitalist interests, with the health benefits of the population an effective side effect, i.e. capitalism only helps people if it can make a profit.

The opposite of capitalism is democracy, the former is about corporate interests, where democratic principles only exist as a smokescreen and are often rigged to favour corporate interests. For democracy to be in its true form we need to decentralise power, giving more of it to the people, not to elite interests (e.g. a PR voting system, citizens' assemblies, etc.).

 

[REVUpminster]

While I believe we were better off in the EU, I take a “Eurosceptic Remainer” attitude, because what you describe here is the EU endorsing the capitalist/neoliberalist model that is behind the protectionism at the centre of this vaccine rollout row. Basically capitalism is the ultimate failed system here that all of the EU, us and other western countries have and are relying on the vaccine to maintain capitalist interests, with the health benefits of the population an effective side effect, i.e. capitalism only helps people if it can make a profit.

The opposite of capitalism is democracy, the former is about corporate interests, where democratic principles only exist as a smokescreen and are often rigged to favour corporate interests. For democracy to be in its true form we need to decentralise power, giving more of it to the people, not to elite interests (e.g. a PR voting system, citizens' assemblies, etc.).

"protectionism". You have hit the nail on the head. I said it before the EU is one big protection racket lorded over by Germany and France and the smaller countries in the EU pay for this protection by buying French and German goods at inflated prices. The must have read the Kray Twins biography.