Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

[Grumpyscot]

Ok, a simulation - but exactly what Lothian is on about and why I back them 100%.

 

[Edirim]

Just to add borders buses have also been attacked...so it's not just lothian getting it unfortunately. Situation been going on a while and in ever increasing areas so only right to have done what they did last night.

 

[Geordie driver]

Can anyone who works for the company confirm, has this come from the management or has the union exerted pressure on them? Possibly with an ultimatum?

Because in my experience " bricking" as we called it and driver assaults were not seen as a big deal by management.

 

[Graham Alexand]

I've found an image which appears that an eVoRa has been vandalised with something thrown though its Windows, as you may see there is a disabled seating sign, so this could have potential killed someone if they don't have as much power to move and react to it quickly.

These people need to take a good long hard look at themselves and relise what they are doing could be potentially life changing for some people.

 

[Bus9120UK]

View attachment 92604
I've found an image which appears that an eVoRa has been vandalised with something thrown though its Windows, as you may see there is a disabled seating sign, so this could have potential killed someone if they don't have as much power to move and react to it quickly.

These people need to take a good long hard look at themselves and relise what they are doing could be potentially life changing for some people.

Those are two different buses in the image. The Gemini 3 on the left indeed have the disabled seat window damaged. The eVoRa damage was on the other side which had the whole destination screen window on the side smashed

 

[ScotRail158725]

These people need to take a good long hard look at themselves and relise what they are doing could be potentially life changing for some people.

The people doing this don’t care and nothing will change that, all it is is just a bit of fun bricking bus windows and its an added bonus if they hit someone...

 

[buslad1988]

What the media hasn’t disclosed is how widespread these incidents are occurring. Realistically pulling services from particular streets/estates is now not an option as the youths are simply moving.

Taking buses out of Moredun on Monday night the vandals then made their way to Gilmerton and started hurling rocks and bricks there instead. And it’s not just the usual hot spots for this kind of thing it’s happening in places like Balerno too. It’s out of control.

Groups of youths are using social media to communicate and compete with each other to cause as much damage as possible. Some drivers have been faced with 10-15 youths waiting at multiple stops along a route. There’s only so much the police and Lothians management can do. Even last night with the early finish two buses still received broken windows; one at Crewe Toll and one in West Lothian.

 

[stantheman]

Back to more normal matters ...
I see 190 is out on the42 today

 

[OmniCity999]

Can anyone who works for the company confirm, has this come from the management or has the union exerted pressure on them? Possibly with an ultimatum?

Because in my experience " bricking" as we called it and driver assaults were not seen as a big deal by management.

The management proposed the action and the unions backed it.

Perhaps a solution would be to reduce and revise the routes in the evening to avoid the problem streets/areas, often vandals will strike in roughly the same places, however although it can work critics of this solution would argue that the vandals would just move to wherever the buses are. Converting services to single deck operating in the evening can also help reduce attacks as it removes the possibility of a vandal doing something "out of sight" on the upper deck.

Like others in the thread i applaud Lothian for the bold move they've made. Thankfully we've not seen any of it here, but i think it's best we avoid flat out pointing fingers at parents (which is what the Facebook Parade like to do...) as i can guarantee most are unaware their kids are doing this and would be just as appalled as us if they found it. Hopefully some of the attacks have been caught on CCTV and can be forwarded to the relevant authorities.

I agree entirely, that's also not to forget the revenue lost having vehicles off the road and the potential shortage of vehicles leading to cancelled services. They've had multiple buses off the road here for up to 4 weeks at a time purely because one window has been put in and they're waiting for parts.

It may come as a surprise but Edinburgh isn't the only place badly affected by vandalism lately, others areas are too, in fact most nights Stagecoach here are diverting the 59 to miss part of it's route. Vandalism can and does happen anywhere, it doesn't matter if the areas are affluent or not.

Also like it or not but access to public transport is a right, people need to be able to travel. You can't permanently isolate a community purely because of a small number of mindless thugs.

The vandals are just moving to other areas, changing a route from a decker to a saloon is irrelevant. If its a bus, its getting hit.

Handing over CCTV to police is irrelevant when the powers aren't there and the vandals are wearing all black and have a covered face. Needle in a haystack comes to mind.

It's just awful and it's a difficult situation.

However even though transport is a right, the service ill continue to be curtailed as required. Money doesn't grow on trees and human life is valuable.

The only way we can seek effective change is through curtailing services, people getting annoyed and reporting it to councilors - when it comes from the top, we can see change.

 

[Humberscot]

The management proposed the action and the unions backed it.


The vandals are just moving to other areas, changing a route from a decker to a saloon is irrelevant. If its a bus, its getting hit.

Handing over CCTV to police is irrelevant when the powers aren't there and the vandals are wearing all black and have a covered face. Needle in a haystack comes to mind.

It's just awful and it's a difficult situation.

However even though transport is a right, the service ill continue to be curtailed as required. Money doesn't grow on trees and human life is valuable.

The only way we can seek effective change is through curtailing services, people getting annoyed and reporting it to councilors - when it comes from the top, we can see change.

Am 100% behind the decision Lothian have taken. These idiots need to be stopped and by curtailing services this will cause anger in the community which will then provoke pressure being applied on the relevant authorities to respond, when they haven't been responding appropriately previously. I applaud whatever action is necessary to have services restored (more of an example made of offenders, police travelling onboard/ahead of services). In a civilised society we shouldn't be allowing 'no go' areas/times for public transport. If that is sanctioned then what will these yobs be demanding happens next? The authorities and the civilised members of society are in charge here, not the low lifes.

 

[CN04NRJ]

Back to more normal matters ...
I see 190 is out on the42 today

Also 1-10 have/are being upgraded to Euro 6. Drove bus 9 this morning and it had the additional warning lights and accompanying sticker for the new system.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Also 1-10 have/are being upgraded to Euro 6. Drove bus 9 this morning and it had the additional warning lights and accompanying sticker for the new system.

Hopefully it makes these nicer to travel on, they’ve been very very shaky since near new.

The 7900’s are at least getting runs now with the Central ones doing the NightBuses and the 12, the Marine ones getting runs on the 42 every few days and then the Longstone ones mixed between mainly the 30, 36 and 38.

 

[CN04NRJ]

Hopefully it makes these nicer to travel on, they’ve been very very shaky since near new.

I only noticed as I was bored sitting at the temporary lights on the Bankhead diversion. Otherwise there was no difference at all .

 

[takno]

Am 100% behind the decision Lothian have taken. These idiots need to be stopped and by curtailing services this will cause anger in the community which will then provoke pressure being applied on the relevant authorities to respond, when they haven't been responding appropriately previously. I applaud whatever action is necessary to have services restored (more of an example made of offenders, police travelling onboard/ahead of services). In a civilised society we shouldn't be allowing 'no go' areas/times for public transport. If that is sanctioned then what will these yobs be demanding happens next? The authorities and the civilised members of society are in charge here, not the low lifes.

I don't know what the council can do about it to be honest. It's a perfect storm of bored kids being progressively excluded from society, taught to do all their communications through channels that can't be intercepted or controlled *and* encouraged to wear masks. Meanwhile there are relatively few responsible adults about to do any of the necessary management of their communities.

It's terrible that it's happening, and Lothian's response is perfectly sensible and appropriate, but I reckon there's basically just going to be more of this until they get the kids back in school and the adults back out and about again.

 

[Jordan Adam]

The vandals are just moving to other areas, changing a route from a decker to a saloon is irrelevant. If its a bus, its getting hit.

Handing over CCTV to police is irrelevant when the powers aren't there and the vandals are wearing all black and have a covered face. Needle in a haystack comes to mind.

It's just awful and it's a difficult situation.

However even though transport is a right, the service ill continue to be curtailed as required. Money doesn't grow on trees and human life is valuable.

The only way we can seek effective change is through curtailing services, people getting annoyed and reporting it to councilors - when it comes from the top, we can see change.

Indeed, that's why i mentioned that "count argument" to the point i was making in my last post. The point about single deckers was more about vandalism in general, for example look at the amount of instances where double deckers have been deliberately set on fire from the upper deck, although i'm aware that the incidents lately have mostly been attacks on windows so indeed it makes no difference.

I'm not criticising Lothian, i praise the decision, just stimulating a healthy discussion as some sort of solution will need to be sought. Cancelling services is only a short term fix and can't go on forever. The social and economic impacts it would have could be disastrous, hopefully this short term cancelation will open peoples eyes to that. Thankfully the Covid pandemic has opened peoples eyes to the fact key workers extend to far more than just the emergency services, who equally do a great job. However i fear once things go back to normality people will forget that and it'll be the same old. It's strange how much people can respect something like the NHS and rightly so, yet can't respect the people who do equally as important of a role in their local communities.

I didn't think the CCTV would be much use at night, that's why i was more hopeful rather than expecting it to happen.

Am 100% behind the decision Lothian have taken. These idiots need to be stopped and by curtailing services this will cause anger in the community which will then provoke pressure being applied on the relevant authorities to respond, when they haven't been responding appropriately previously. I applaud whatever action is necessary to have services restored (more of an example made of offenders, police travelling onboard/ahead of services). In a civilised society we shouldn't be allowing 'no go' areas/times for public transport. If that is sanctioned then what will these yobs be demanding happens next? The authorities and the civilised members of society are in charge here, not the low lifes.

Any sort of curfew won't have much impact, the police won't be able to enforce it and the thugs in question will easily just ignore it. The police have nowhere near enough resources to put an officer on each bus. The only way the police could really catch them is if they increased patrols around the problem areas in unmarked cars as often it isn't just buses being attacked by stones but also cars.

 

[eoff]

Yes, I am telling you that this IS widespread and happening in many places in Edinburgh, not just one or two locations. That is why it is not as simple as just curtailing some routes. And we are not talking about little stones here, but actual house bricks.

I did not know this was so widespread. Are the details of the individual incidents publicly availabe?

 

[Robertj21a]

I don't know what the council can do about it to be honest. It's a perfect storm of bored kids being progressively excluded from society, taught to do all their communications through channels that can't be intercepted or controlled *and* encouraged to wear masks. Meanwhile there are relatively few responsible adults about to do any of the necessary management of their communities.

It's terrible that it's happening, and Lothian's response is perfectly sensible and appropriate, but I reckon there's basically just going to be more of this until they get the kids back in school and the adults back out and about again.

In earlier times a bus company would run a ghost bus along the route, full of coppers. Perhaps a few security staff, plus some fast runners could have a similar impact now.

 

[CN04NRJ]

I did not know this was so widespread. Are the details of the individual incidents publicly availabe?

I guess you could submit a FoI request if you're unsure whether to believe everything that's been posted or not?

 

[mark-h]

It must be more difficult to suspend services to the Royal Infirmary- removing services to the city's main hospital will be controversial. Unfortunately the hospital is not well located.

 

[Busman757]

In earlier times a bus company would run a ghost bus along the route, full of coppers. Perhaps a few security staff, plus some fast runners could have a similar impact now.

That has already been done.....

 

[Geordie driver]

One of the reasons buses get bricked so often is they are fairly sure nothing will happen. Kids know if they attack a taxi or similar there is a very real chance the driver will try and get hold of them, they know they can attack buses with virtual impunity.

 

[Jordan Adam]

One of the reasons buses get bricked so often is they are fairly sure nothing will happen. Kids know if they attack a taxi or similar there is a very real chance the driver will try and get hold of them, they know they can attack buses with virtual impunity.

Not really sure thats the case. I can't speak for the recent cases in Edinburgh but I know here cars have been getting targeted just as much. Perhaps what makes a difference is that buses are significantly larger so the chances of actually hitting the window on one are higher.

 

[Mal]

One of the reasons buses get bricked so often is they are fairly sure nothing will happen. Kids know if they attack a taxi or similar there is a very real chance the driver will try and get hold of them, they know they can attack buses with virtual impunity.

Once upon a time there were deterrents like hanging, the tawse and so on in Britain. Now with human rights, civil liberties and a no-blame culture these idiots know they won't get anything in the way of punishment!

 

[LiviCrazy]

One of the reasons buses get bricked so often is they are fairly sure nothing will happen. Kids know if they attack a taxi or similar there is a very real chance the driver will try and get hold of them, they know they can attack buses with virtual impunity.

I remember years ago sitting on a bus in Livingston and a rock coming through the side window. The driver stopped the bus immediately, naturally, one of the passengers told the driver to let him off, he then shot off after the wee ned and dragged him back by the scruff who then sat on the bus looking sheepish until the police came.

Sad that this is back on the rise again, not pleasant for drivers or passengers to feel like they are in danger while travelling.

 

[Geordie driver]

Not really sure thats the case. I can't speak for the recent cases in Edinburgh but I know here cars have been getting targeted just as much. Perhaps what makes a difference is that buses are significantly larger so the chances of actually hitting the window on one are higher.

I am not saying only buses are being targeted, given there must be 20 times the number of cars on the road compared to buses ( at least) there will be some damage done. But the kids know the bus driver is very unlikely to deal with them in a robust manner, indeed, they know the driver is not permitted to. I have never had my car attacked but have been bricked driving a bus so many times I can't remember them all.

 

[Graeme Duncan]

I observed 175 heading westwards along Calder Road yesterday afternoon presumably on it's way to pastures new.

 

[OmniCity999]

A lot of our Eclipses are currently stored at Newbridge, they are regularly coming into the city for routine maintenance.

 

[CN04NRJ]

A lot of our Eclipses are currently stored at Newbridge, they are regularly coming into the city for routine maintenance.

Saw 174 the other day as well headed for maintenance. Not sure why whenever a stored or heritage vehicle is spotted somewhere (especially within Edinburgh) it simply must be off for sale/scrap.

It particularly tickled me the other week when, after an Olympian was spotted going somewhere, an enthusiast made enquiries to buy it only to post later on he'd received a response that it was just undergoing maintenence or something to that effect.

 

[Bus9120UK]

Another image has been released of one of the new B5TL E400MMC's. I do like the look of them, and the use of smart seat - although there will only be 8 of these (I believe?)

I notice it has a small dent on the rear

Obviously not my photo, credits to David Oakley

Volvo B5TL - Alexander Dennis Enviro 400MMC

Seen on the M73 northbound is one of Lothian Buses new Alexander Dennis Enviro 400MMC bodied Volvo B5TL.

www.flickr.com

 

[route101]

Another image has been released of one of the new B5TL E400MMC's. I do like the look of them, and the use of smart seat - although there will only be 8 of these (I believe?)

I notice it has a small dent on the rear

Obviously not my photo, credits to David Oakley

Volvo B5TL - Alexander Dennis Enviro 400MMC

Seen on the M73 northbound is one of Lothian Buses new Alexander Dennis Enviro 400MMC bodied Volvo B5TL.

www.flickr.com

What makes it a B5TL? Looks same as other E400mmcs.