Live signalling diagrams

[Inversnecky]

Some areas with mechanical boxes are covered. In general the Southern region has pretty comprehensive coverage even for mechanical or small panel boxes. Scotland by contrast doesn't have any coverage outside of the two signalling centres (except for the new Inverness workstations) . The data is never being hidden from the open data feed though - if we can't see it then neither can internal systems

It was odd that one of the maps had a small section of the Aberdeen to Inverness line including Keith in it, but neither of the termini. How is that?

 

[Sean Emmett]

Interesting thread. I would assume the CCF shows all trains incl Royal Train, nuclear flasks etc, whereas these are redacted on the publicly available sites?

 

[Aictos]

does anyone know a signal map for Dundee, Aberdeen, highlands? Tracksy and signalmaps only seem to go as far as fife

Yes but it's not free, it's part of the subscription that gives you access to webcams, maps for pretty the whole country including to Wick (Open Train Times nor Traksy extend that far), TOPS history, open data search per location etc all available at Railcam.UK for £4 per month, £8 per three months, £14 per six months or £25 per 12 months.

Site also has additional material provided by Freightmaster.

 

[Highlandspring]

It was odd that one of the maps had a small section of the Aberdeen to Inverness line including Keith in it, but neither of the termini. How is that?

The simplified explanation is that if there’s a modern enough type of Train Describer then its output will show on the data feed. The Highland Workstation TD is included in the data feed and covers the whole workstation control area. Inverness panel, which covers the station area, doesn’t have a TD and neither does Aberdeen. Dundee does has a TD but it is from 1985 and isn’t connected to the outside world. Perth used to have a TD but it hasn’t worked for years and was a really archaic type from the 1960s so wouldn’t output to the data feed anyway.

CCF shows maps for the whole Scottish network but the areas without a TD feed show train movements based on TRUST reports so there can be a significant time delay.

 

[takno]

It was odd that one of the maps had a small section of the Aberdeen to Inverness line including Keith in it, but neither of the termini. How is that?

There are two islands of resignalling on the Aberdeen to Inverness line and another two sections on the Highland Main Line that were resignalled in the last couple of years as part of the upgrade programme. there are some other islands like this in England, such the Goole workstation.

In previous decades when small-scale resignalling was done, you often ended up with a couple of manual boxes along the route closed, and a small panel being added to the remaining one, as happened at Evesham and Harrogate. Of these, the Harrogate panel (but not the mechanical frame which remained for Harrogate station itself) made it onto the data feed, while Evesham didn't.

Current policy appears to be to always move it to a workstation in a signalling centre, and to provide the data, even when it's a small island surrounded by manual signal boxes.

 

[LAX54]

Control Centre of the Future, effectively the industry version of the live maps and pre open data.

Never understood why it was called 'Control Centre of the Future',as it does none of those things, and it is not always 100% correct

 

[Sunset route]

Some areas with mechanical boxes are covered. In general the Southern region has pretty comprehensive coverage even for mechanical or small panel boxes. Scotland by contrast doesn't have any coverage outside of the two signalling centres (except for the new Inverness workstations) . The data is never being hidden from the open data feed though - if we can't see it then neither can internal systems

The reason the Southern having such a comprehension mapping even for the mechanical areas was for CSR (Cab Secure Radio) and the need to have positive train location for every stop signal, regardless of interlocking type or control interface.

 

[takno]

The reason the Southern having such a comprehension mapping even for the mechanical areas was for CSR (Cab Secure Radio) and the need to have positive train location for every stop signal, regardless of interlocking type or control interface.

Interesting, thanks. The Southern is very much the exception, but it's fairly impressive even in the lifetime of Traksy how many areas have been added or upgraded, and how much has been transferred into the ROCs

 

[littledude]

Interesting thread. I would assume the CCF shows all trains incl Royal Train, nuclear flasks etc, whereas these are redacted on the publicly available sites?

There are no trains removed from the ‘live map’ data feeds - if it’s on a signalling panel, it’s on the data feeds. This includes the Royal Train and any nuclear movements; the latter being not very special, their full schedules are available on all of the open websites (RTT/OTT/Freight Locate/Railcam etc)

Cheers

 

[Peter0124]

Railcam is definitely the best of them all, looks far better and simpler.

 

[Steve Harris]

Railcam is definitely the best of them all, looks far better and simpler.

I think Live maps is a bit like art. What one person thinks is "excellent" another will think is "poor", as everything is subjective !

I think it's probably better to just list what "Live maps" are publicly and freely available and then let each individual person decide which one (or more) fits in with their needs.

So far we have OTT, traksy, railcam, signalmaps... for MAPS... any more?

(Other site's have been mentioned up thread, eg RTT which have very useful information, however they don't actually have maps, therefore I believe their technically Off Topic as they don't fit with the title of the thread).

 

[TheEdge]

Railcam is definitely the best of them all, looks far better and simpler.

To your eyes perhaps. To mine its probably the ugliest of the lot of them. My rating would be Signalmaps, OTT, Tracksy then Railcam.

 

[Tw99]

What I'd find useful from any of these map sites is the ability to have the display follow the progress of a particular train.

 

[Peter0124]

What I'd find useful from any of these map sites is the ability to have the display follow the progress of a particular train.

Railcam has that, though when it goes off a certain map you have to go to the next page and start following it again

To your eyes perhaps. To mine its probably the ugliest of the lot of them. My rating would be Signalmaps, OTT, Tracksy then Railcam.

The other maps just look far too old and blocky looking. Though I can see how people would like them as I think it's what the signallers use.

 

[Darandio]

Railcam is definitely the best of them all, looks far better and simpler.

It does have one disadvantage over the others though, it isn't free......

 

[Skie]

There are maps on screens (at least on the high numbered platforms) at Victoria. Looks like a machine running Windows XP in a glass box.

 

[TheEdge]

There are maps on screens (at least on the high numbered platforms) at Victoria. Looks like a machine running Windows XP in a glass box.

Those are displaying CCF/P2/Tornado (or whatever other internal ones exist) so staff can check on the fly where trains are without having to phone someone else or use a mobile to check out on the platforms. They are dotted all over at busy stations.

 

[GB]

It does have one disadvantage over the others though, it isn't free......

It does have one advantage over others tho and that is the freights are usually not scrambled. (Well they are but then the operators of Railcam manage to unscramble them).

 

[takno]

What I'd find useful from any of these map sites is the ability to have the display follow the progress of a particular train.

Traksy has that. Just click on a train and hit the "track train" button. It won't currently track a train from one map to another, but the Traksy maps are generally the largest of any of the sites, so hopefully that won't happen too often

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Railcam has that, though when it goes off a certain map you have to go to the next page and start following it again



The other maps just look far too old and blocky looking. Though I can see how people would like them as I think it's what the signallers use.

Personally I've never been a fan of the approach where you have a single line broken into multiple rows on one screen, which is one of the main reasons I didn't buy a railcam subscription rather than building my own from scratch. That layout is exactly what signallers use though, so I guess some people must find it useful.

I do personally prefer a dark mode, and in fact Traksy has a hidden dark mode which I keep meaning to open up to subscribers.

At the end of the day the various sites each have differences based on what was most important to their creators, and what the tastes of their creators and users are. None of them are "the best", and it's probably better if the discussion doesn't descend into a squealing war of fanboys.

 

[Steve Harris]

None of them are "the best", and it's probably better if the discussion doesn't descend into a squealing war of fanboys.

Well said.

 

[apinnard]

That doesn't surprise me one bit.

I found a layout error on OTT and emailed them notifying them of the error. I even attached a youtube drivers eye view video to helo explain what was wrong. I'm still awaiting a reply 2 months later!

On the other hand I noticed some wrong platform numbering on traksy and had a reply in hours and the map was updated within 24hrs. The guy who runs Traksy said that he uses Sectional Appendix's (if he can get hold of current in date issues).

Therefore, I would go with the Traksy map being more accurate.

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Actual route set is also shown on some OTT maps (obviously due to data feed limitations, as some feeds will have route set data and some won't).

CCF ?

Can somebody poke the Traksy guy to ask him to update the Clacton on Sea station area now that it’s all been renewed?

 

[takno]

Can somebody poke the Traksy guy to ask him to update the Clacton on Sea station area now that it’s all been renewed?

Oh sorry. I worked through the list last week and I didn't have that noted down. Will try to take a look this week

 

[Steve Harris]

Oh sorry. I worked through the list last week and I didn't have that noted down. Will try to take a look this week

You beat me to it, as I was going to suggest that he contact you direct.

And sorry to give you yet more work takno, but I believe part of the remodelled Kings Cross will be opening soon.

 

[takno]

You beat me to it, as I was going to suggest that he contact you direct.

And sorry to give you yet more work takno, but I believe part of the remodelled Kings Cross will be opening soon.

I may end up needing that myself on the first day, so it's front and centre of my list!

 

[jadmor]

Here’s some comparative screenshots. Traksy has point labelling; signal maps seems to have a limited number of routes available.

It seems Traksy and OTT don’t have the same track layout even.

View attachment 94558

View attachment 94559


View attachment 94560

(No Edinburgh on Signal Maps.)

I believe there is an error in the layout shown for Edinburgh on the

Here’s some comparative screenshots. Traksy has point labelling; signal maps seems to have a limited number of routes available.

It seems Traksy and OTT don’t have the same track layout even.

View attachment 94558

View attachment 94559


View attachment 94560

(No Edinburgh on Signal Maps.)

i think there is an error on the OTT Edinburgh plan. Tracing the exit westbound past signal

Here’s some comparative screenshots. Traksy has point labelling; signal maps seems to have a limited number of routes available.

It seems Traksy and OTT don’t have the same track layout even.

View attachment 94558

View attachment 94559


View attachment 94560

(No Edinburgh on Signal Maps.)

There appears to be a small error on the OTT Edinburgh diagram. The exit from platform 17 past signal483 shows a short straight line section bypassing a double slip. It is more obviously when compared to a photo of the layout from the mound tunnels.

 

[zwk500]

Control Centre of the Future
Internal use only by signallers and control offices. Not (officially) available to train planners or engineering access planners.
When I last met it about 5 years ago there was a limited number of logins per control area.

Some train planners are (or were) given CCF access for Delay attribution reasons, although there aren't many logins available to them.

Interesting thread. I would assume the CCF shows all trains incl Royal Train, nuclear flasks etc, whereas these are redacted on the publicly available sites?

Sensitive train schedules are shown in OTT - it's just not immediately clear that they're any different to other freights (there are clues for those who know what to look for). The Royal train is treated somewhat differently, and no headcode should show in any system, industry-only or public.

 

[Inversnecky]

Well said.

As it should be, as everyone have their own preferences.

I've edited the OP to include all mentioned - that's five now - any more?

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Is there a glitch with Traksy that prevents it working on a PC (or my Firefox browser)?

While I can see the diagrams on my phone, I just can't get rid of this dialogue box on my laptop.

 

[Aictos]

It does have one disadvantage over the others though, it isn't free......

Remember that they have additional data from Freightmaster, none of their rivals have this.

I do personally prefer a dark mode, and in fact Traksy has a hidden dark mode which I keep meaning to open up to subscribers.

Point 1. Any idea when dark mode will be available?

Point 2. You mention subscribers, what benefits do they have over non subscribers?

Point 3. At Potters Bar for example, some signals have a red circle - are they shunt signals?

Point 4. How come some signals are grey and others show red or green? Is it possible to show other aspects too eg red, single yellow, double yellow, green? Or is it the case that only controlled signals can show what aspect it is displaying?

Apologies for what sound like nit picking but I am curious to find out the answers please.

 

[IanXC]

There are maps on screens (at least on the high numbered platforms) at Victoria. Looks like a machine running Windows XP in a glass box.

Whenever I've seen such screens they've been running another industry system, which having seen one reset once I think is called TMIS by T-Sharp.

 

[ainsworth74]

Personally I've never been a fan of the approach where you have a single line broken into multiple rows on one screen, which is one of the main reasons I didn't buy a railcam subscription rather than building my own from scratch. That layout is exactly what signallers use though, so I guess some people must find it useful.

I have idly wondered if that might be an artefact of when those sorts of systems were first becoming common (I'm assuming in the 80s when IECCs became a thing) that the cost of monitors, especially widescreen monitors, would have been cost prohibitive if you hadn't tried to squeeze as much info into each display as possible. Equally having a bank of screens would have been harder as well what with them being CRTs as well! By the time that modern flat screen displays were (comparatively) cheap and common it would likely have been more expensive in reprogramming (and refamiliarization!) to change it to take advantage of it not being especially difficult to lay out three modern widescreen monitors (or even six) to avoid having a single line on multiple rows.