Entire 800/801/802 fleet stood down for safety checks

[gimmea50anyday]

What about the class 395 running for 9 years or is this Newton Aycliffe problem.

all the bodyshells were assembled in Kasado or Pistoia. Newton Aycliffe only recently had the welding facilities added

 

[edwin_m]

It's stated at the bottom of their disruption page.

Still not including SWR, despite the routes west of Salisbury being available until the weekend.

 

[Bayum]

Daily Scotsman reporting some 385s are taken out of service for similar issues.

ScotRail said a “small number” of its class 385 electric trains – which run on routes such as the main Edinburgh-Glasgow line – were affected.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/trans...ail-trains-after-urgent-safety-checks-3229781

 

[Goldfish62]

Still not including SWR, despite the routes west of Salisbury being available until the weekend.

SWR is mentioned, but I wouldn't necessarily recommend that route due to the current sparse service west of Salisbury.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This matter will have done nothing for the reputation of Hitachi, whereas I am not surprised about CAF. Has this particular problem arisen in any other countries with their units?

 

[800001]

What about the class 395 running for 9 years or is this Newton Aycliffe problem.

It is not just a Newton Aycliffe problem, some of the trains with the issues are the trains that were fully built at Kasado.

 

[Failed Unit]

Follow the thread I may have missed it but what is the fix?

I can see 2 solutions neither of them quick. Weld or cut and replace.

if set 1 takes 1 week to repair, this is a scary disruption period. Do they actually have a fix? Or ok we have a problem. Sit together in a dark room to find a solution..

 

[py_megapixel]

err... hang on, how many different leasing companies???...

and thats not all of them, just the ones involved in IEP. So who are Agility Trains?

Essentially - the 800s and 801s were bought by DfT for the Intercity Express Programme. A contract was awarded to Agility Trains, who are a consortium of Hitachi and John Laing. This contract essentially works on the basis that DfT pay fees for trains to be available to work diagrams for the TOC. Of course they aren't available at the moment so DfT isn't paying (apart from the small quantity that are out).

Subsequent 80x (the only current ones in service are 802s but more are to come) have been procured the more conventional way - a rolling stock company buys the trains from the train builder (still Hitachi) and leases them to the TOC for a fee.

 

[edwin_m]

Follow the thread I may have missed it but what is the fix?

I can see 2 solutions neither of them quick. Weld or cut and replace.

if set 1 takes 1 week to repair, this is a scary disruption period. Do they actually have a fix? Or ok we have a problem. Sit together in a dark room to find a solution..

I don't think anyone knows yet, though doubtless people are working on it. It may well take a week per train, but maybe they can find workshop space, people and equipment to do several at once.

 

[Domh245]

Essentially - the 800s and 801s were bought by DfT for the Intercity Express Programme. A contract was awarded to Agility Trains, who are a consortium of Hitachi and John Laing. This contract essentially works on the basis that DfT pay fees for trains to be available to work diagrams for the TOC. Of course they aren't available at the moment so DfT isn't paying (apart from the small quantity that are out).

Strictly speaking the TOC pays for the trains available each day, though they are mandated to use them by the DfT (and at current, financially supported directly by the DfT)

 

[800001]

I don't think anyone knows yet, though doubtless people are working on it. It may well take a week per train, but maybe they can find workshop space, people and equipment to do several at once.

There is many high level engineers and Office Of Rail Regulators actively looking into this.

Some cracks are 1-2mm in length, they may deem these safe to re-enter service on the provision they are repaired by a certain date., but I guess for us all its a waiting game to see what they do.

 

[alangla]

Daily Scotsman reporting some 385s are taken out of service for similar issues.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/trans...ail-trains-after-urgent-safety-checks-3229781

Confirmed by ScotRail last night

https://twitter.com/scotrail/status/1391480480898375686?s=21

Some short forms as a result

 

[CapitalStar378]

Transport for Wales (TfW) have 5 tph between CDF and NWP, albeit with some longer gaps due to the GWR cancellations, this should be enough to carry GWR passengers, especially as it's 1 tph off peak still.

 

[Dai Corner]

Transport for Wales

(TfW) have 5 tph between CDF and NWP, albeit with some longer gaps due to the GWR cancellations, this should be enough to carry GWR passengers, especially as it's 1 tph off peak still.

Agreed, though there is an additional 0816 Bridgend - Newport, returning to Cardiff Central at 0856. Also two additional Cardiff Central - Bridgends in the evening peak.

Normall there are 3 GWR trains per hour Newport-Cardiff, two TfW and one CrossCountry.

 

[Failed Unit]

There is many high level engineers and Office Of Rail Regulators actively looking into this.

Some cracks are 1-2mm in length, they may deem these safe to re-enter service on the provision they are repaired by a certain date., but I guess for us all its a waiting game to see what they do.

Yep. Until they know the cause they can’t do much. I don’t have much experience with aluminium but with steel it isn’t the first time I have welded a crack, just for it to reappear further down (or even worse shear altogether at a weaker point)

They will find a solution. It is probably how long it will take to find it that is scaring everyone. At least if the cause is component x, once they modify it the cracking should stop.

It is what engineers live for, however without the impact in this case.

 

[syorksdeano]

I'm assuming it must be going through some people's minds that the units that are currently running that don't appear to have any cracks, it's not a case of if they end up with cracks but when.

I can honestly see that if no quick fix is found soon, we could see more and more units taken off the rails.

Surely just welding a bit more metal (or aluminium) will only be a temporary fix. Could we see entire bodies of units redesigned?

 

[irish_rail]

So on GWR as far as I can tell the only sets out are 800006 , 800009, 800014.

No 802s, no 9 car sets. I'd be interested to know if the 3 out are 3 with the lowest mileage? Or are the fact they don't get near the notoriously bumpy b and h a factor?

 

[Failed Unit]

I'm assuming it must be going through some people's minds that the units that are currently running that don't appear to have any cracks, it's not a case of if they end up with cracks but when.

I can honestly see that if no quick fix is found soon, we could see more and more units taken off the rails.

Surely just welding a bit more metal (or aluminium) will only be a temporary fix. Could we see entire bodies of units redesigned?

Very possible. If the cause is for example a physical connection, strengthening could just move the problem. Seen it many times on steel. Force x creates a crack. You fix the crack but force x is still around. The crack is strengthened so the stress points is just moved unless you move force x. It is possible the number of units out of service could increase as the week goes on. However from the positive side they could say the unit is perfectly safe until the crack hits these parameters. with the numbers of these cracks it looks like they have something that needs a redesign. It could be a manufacturing defect of course.

 

[73128]

The Oxford to Worcester shuttle is two units, running two of three hours at roughly xx45 from Oxford, which is a convenient connection out of the northbound XC services from Reading (and sometimes south of). The southbound arrivals (also around normal times) do not connect very well towards Reading, but there are Chiltern connections into London after 10-15 minutes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 10 May 2021 ==

So on GWR as far as I can tell the only sets out are 800006 , 800009, 800014.

No 802s, no 9 car sets. I'd be interested to know if the 3 out are 3 with the lowest mileage? Or are the fact they don't get near the notoriously bumpy b and h a factor?

Those three were some of the earliest deliveries (the five car 8000xx series were delivered first) so appears unlikely.

 

[bobslack1982]

I'm assuming it must be going through some people's minds that the units that are currently running that don't appear to have any cracks, it's not a case of if they end up with cracks but when.

I can honestly see that if no quick fix is found soon, we could see more and more units taken off the rails.

Surely just welding a bit more metal (or aluminium) will only be a temporary fix. Could we see entire bodies of units redesigned?

Welding aluminium to steel is a time consuming and relatively difficult job. Whatever they do, it won’t be an easy fix, nor a quick one.

 

[24Grange]

I suppose it depends whether its the strength of the material or the design of the fixing that is the issue ( or a combination of both?) I do wonder, as a layman without any knowledge, whether the shocking ride quality over complex trackwork is connected. Massive thumps and bangs and "jolts" surely can't be as kind to components as smooth as silk interaction of different "bits".

Are the ones running presently allowed to run at full line speed or is there some temporary speed restriction on them?

 

[PHILIPE]

First up GWR IET this morning 0554 IL01 BPW to RDG has recently left 61 late, behind the 0700 (1L05). 0522 1B00 Paddington to Newport also heading down right now (but 26 late leaving BPW with a fairly tight turn round due at NWP into 0726 1L07 back up to RDG).

At least three sets are safe to be allowed out.

There has been a points failure between Newport and Bristol Parkway

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm assuming it must be going through some people's minds that the units that are currently running that don't appear to have any cracks, it's not a case of if they end up with cracks but when.

Yes, most probably.

They will also be able to do calculations to see if a certain length or width of crack can be accepted because it will not fail for some time, with close monitoring of crack growth. (I did this in an OU module ages ago, it was really interesting).

Surely just welding a bit more metal (or aluminium) will only be a temporary fix. Could we see entire bodies of units redesigned?

I doubt it. "Bodging on a bit" sounds messy, but provided it's done properly it isn't a bodge and can be a permanent fix. Do you knock your house down and rebuild it if a brick comes loose?

This is all very similar to Northern's CAF woes, yet that isn't hitting the headlines to the same extent as it's not caused near-shutdown of a whole TOC, just some short-formings which Northern passengers are used to - also it doesn't serve London.

 

[Pokelet]

Can they not be inspected by a "man in a van" in the yard at Worcester, and only go to Bristol if repairs are needed?

It's just Sidings at Worcester Shrub Hill, they don't go anywhere near Worcester TMD which is a WMT facility and I think only handles fueling, cleaning and tanking.

The GWR Sidings are behind platform 2, I think for 3 and there's also the long siding east of platform 1 that's it.

 

[172007]

Do wonder. The CAF 195 had the intervehicle Coupling boxes enlarged as they where not wide enough to allow the coupler to move. I understand this was due to some curves and points being tighter than the designer expected. Is it possible that the same specs were given to Agility / Hitachi.

The trains are encountering somewhere tighter radius curves or pointwork that is somehow putting a lot more stress on the suspension components I.e. the yawdamper which is there to damp the rotation of the bogie and is this locking out on depot paintwork enough not to derail but stress the bracket until it cracks.

I am not an engineer or rolling stock technician and have no technical knowledge of such things.

 

[357]

The trains are encountering somewhere tighter radius curves or paintwork that is somehow putting a lot more stress on the suspension components

That must be some pretty tough paint

 

[172007]

That must be some pretty tough paint

Grrr, no matter how much I spell check the predictive text gets me somewhere.

 

[Killingworth]

That must be some pretty tough paint

I see the point

 

[millemille]

This issue appears, based on current information in the public domain, to be affecting vehicles of differing ages, differing duty cycles on different routes and possibly even of fundamentally different design.

That doesn't lend itself to drawing the conclusion this is a design issue, or at least not one that is resulting in a cumulative fatigue failure.

These could, in theory, be failures resulting from a single ultimate stress event (the variation in vehicles affected or not affected explained by a confluence of circumstances such as loading, speed, track geometry, damper performance, spring performance etc. being required to realise the event) and the design failing to cope with this ultimate stress, but it would have to be a hell of a force exerted for a one off event to have initiated a crack and I would have thought/hoped there would have been damage elsewhere evident before vehicle structure failure.

Manufacturing or material variation/non-compliance does seem, based on the information in the public domain at the moment, to suit the range of vehicles affected.

 

[syorksdeano]

That must be some pretty tough paint

I'm sure why they finally fix the issues that someone will be overcome with emulsion