Entire 800/801/802 fleet stood down for safety checks

[tspaul26]

Non-provision of the service paid for is unlikely to constitute discharge of the TOCs responsibilities.

“Reasonable endeavours” to provide said service, was the requirement, as posted above?

There is no such qualification in the Conditions of Travel as to the contractual obligation of the relevant TOC(s) to convey the passenger.

I believe the reference to which you refer is NRCOT n.28.2, but this pertains to “any” TOC providing assistance “where it reasonably can”. It does not absolve total non-performance.

 

[43096]

So nothing for the South West. Surprise surprise . Always the poor man of GWR despite being the most "intercity".

What's your plan, then, given it looks like GWR will only have 3 trains out of 93 available tomorrow?

 

[HST274]

Surely it does not make a lot of sense (for the passenger) to start North Cotswold trains from Oxford. Whilst today those travelling London to Worcester, Evesham etc. could get a 387 to Reading then turbo to Worcester, it is almost impossible to get to Oxford with GWR from London unless I have missed something. Crosscountry would have to be used adding an extra change AND GWR didn't say that XC could be travelled on with gwr tickets as far as I could see. Whilst no one is really checking tickets so this is pretty much fine, I feel Reading is just a better terminus.

Edit: Thanks for the responses. It looks like I forgot about Chiltern

 

[SteelWeelApeal]

How can there be only three out tomorrow if there were five today? Surely it would mean that two of those out today would have failed the inspection, unless it‘s for another unrelated reason.

 

[ashkeba]

What's your plan, then, given it looks like GWR will only have 3 trains out of 93 available tomorrow?

There is another thread for speculation. An answer will be wrong here.

 

[Class 317]

Surely it does not make a lot of sense (for the passenger) to start North Cotswold trains from Oxford. Whilst today those travelling London to Worcester, Evesham etc. could get a 387 to Reading then turbo to Worcester, it is almost impossible to get to Oxford with GWR from London unless I have missed something. Crosscountry would have to be used adding an extra change AND GWR didn't say that XC could be travelled on with gwr tickets as far as I could see. Whilst no one is really checking tickets so this is pretty much fine, I feel Reading is just a better terminus.

Can always use Marylebone to Oxford instead.

 

[john prytherch]

Seriously, my thoughts and prayers are with everyone who is working so hard to sort out this crisis, as I am sure a lot of people are; and for all the inconvenienced passengers.

I have had only four rides on these trains, three on what I still like to call the Western Region (Gloucester - Swindon and back to Cheltenham, plus one further trip Gloucester - Cheltenham) and one on an "Azuma" (Leeds - Doncaster).

If I may include a little flippancy, I call these trains generically "Hitachi bi-modes", but, in my heart, I think of the Western ones as Cucumbers (I think Ian Walmsley has so described them in Modern Railways, and his terminology is good enough for me), and the LNER ones as Azumas. On the WR Inter-city routes, flying cucumbers (provided they work) have replaced flying bananas. The Transpennine ones are, I think, called Nova followed by a number between 1 and 5 (can't remember which). There are more on order for East Midlands Railway, which I think it is proposed to call Auroras or something. And I think there are more on order for Avanti West Coast, but I'm not sure whether anyone has thought of a name or branding for them yet. I really hope they come soon, because I long to see the back of Voyagers running under the wires all the way between London and Scotland. The Hull trains ones may have a name, but I don't know it - perhaps "Paragonias"?

 

[ashkeba]

, it is almost impossible to get to Oxford with GWR from London unless I have missed something. Crosscountry would have to be used adding an extra change

Chiltern?

 

[HST274]

Chiltern?

I meant with GWR. Are Chiltern allowing GWR passengers if so then that does make it a little better

 

[43 302]

I meant with GWR. Are Chiltern allowing GWR passengers if so then that does make it a little better

Of course they are.

 

[hexagon789]

The Hull trains ones may have a name, but I don't know it - perhaps "Paragonias"?

"Paragons" after the name of Hull station

 

[800001]

How can there be only three out tomorrow if there were five today? Surely it would mean that two of those out today would have failed the inspection, unless it‘s for another unrelated reason.

Two of the 5 sets require further over night testing, so only the 3 planned to be in use.

 

[ScouserGirl]

How can there be only three out tomorrow if there were five today? Surely it would mean that two of those out today would have failed the inspection, unless it‘s for another unrelated reason.

Two are going back in tonight for further inspection

 

[Watershed]

I meant with GWR. Are Chiltern allowing GWR passengers if so then that does make it a little better

There is ticket acceptance with Avanti, Chiltern, SWR, WMT and XC.

 

[Essexman]

Surely it does not make a lot of sense (for the passenger) to start North Cotswold trains from Oxford. Whilst today those travelling London to Worcester, Evesham etc. could get a 387 to Reading then turbo to Worcester, it is almost impossible to get to Oxford with GWR from London unless I have missed something. Crosscountry would have to be used adding an extra change AND GWR didn't say that XC could be travelled on with gwr tickets as far as I could see. Whilst no one is really checking tickets so this is pretty much fine, I feel Reading is just a better terminus.

Chiltern to Oxford is an alternative.

 

[E16 Cyclist]

Surely it does not make a lot of sense (for the passenger) to start North Cotswold trains from Oxford. Whilst today those travelling London to Worcester, Evesham etc. could get a 387 to Reading then turbo to Worcester, it is almost impossible to get to Oxford with GWR from London unless I have missed something. Crosscountry would have to be used adding an extra change AND GWR didn't say that XC could be travelled on with gwr tickets as far as I could see. Whilst no one is really checking tickets so this is pretty much fine, I feel Reading is just a better terminus.

You are forgetting Chiltern operate two trains an hour from London to Oxford

 

[HST274]

There is ticket acceptance with Avanti, Chiltern, SWR, WMT and XC.

My mistake. They had only specified avanti and wmr on their undeleted tweets and it isn't exactly obvious on their websites.

 

[SteelWeelApeal]

Surely it does not make a lot of sense (for the passenger) to start North Cotswold trains from Oxford. Whilst today those travelling London to Worcester, Evesham etc. could get a 387 to Reading then turbo to Worcester, it is almost impossible to get to Oxford with GWR from London unless I have missed something. Crosscountry would have to be used adding an extra change AND GWR didn't say that XC could be travelled on with gwr tickets as far as I could see. Whilst no one is really checking tickets so this is pretty much fine, I feel Reading is just a better terminus.

Ideally you’d join the Cotswold trains with the Oxford to Didcot stoppers, as this would provide connections at Didcot without using more stock (maybe one extra unit to match up the services, I haven’t checked in detail). I imagine this extra planning is the last thing anyone needs right now, but maybe something to consider if this lasts a bit longer.

 

[edwin_m]

Hoping that this next week sees some further trains released back into service. On the 19th my son is travelling up from Doncaster to Aberdeen to see me for the first time in 7 months. Absolutely not LNER's fault, they're working on bring Mk4s out of mothballs this week, hopefully that frees up enough Azumas for Scottish services north of Edinburgh for w/c 17th.

I think that's unlikely.

It is reported that by the end of today all trains will have been checked, so operators will know with some certainty how many will be able to go into service tomorrow. However there will be other units that have done mileages close to those that have cracked, and a close eye will need keeping on those in particular (and on all the others too), to pull them out of service if any cracks appear. Hence there is a risk that emergency timetables will have to be reduced - I would hope the operators have kept a couple of crack-free trains in hand or developed a contingency plan for withdrawing more without leaving any more huge holes in the service.

It's possible they will manage to get a better understanding of how these cracks are growing, and be able to put some with lesser cracking back into service for a limited period. But I doubt that will happen, because unless the extent of cracking correlates very closely to mileage operated they can only find it out by putting trains with cracks back into service with no knowledge of how quickly the cracks might grow. So I don't think the situation improves until trains start to be repaired. It will take some time to design a repair and get necessary checks and approvals, and it is likely that doing the repair on each train will need workshop facilities and specialist equipment for some time. So the return to service is likely to be slow, though it may speed up a bit later as people get better skilled and perhaps more resources are brought in from Hitachi plants worldwide (I hope government will waive quarantine requirements!).

The closest comparison I can think of is the Siemens Combino tram. This was apparently designed to the wrong load cases, probably because Siemens had transferred the process from the specialise Duewag plant they took over to their general facilities. In consequence there was a risk of the heavy traction equipment falling through the ceiling into the passenger area. Siemens had to modify nearly 500 vehicles, and now has a much reduced presence in the tram market.

Surely it does not make a lot of sense (for the passenger) to start North Cotswold trains from Oxford. Whilst today those travelling London to Worcester, Evesham etc. could get a 387 to Reading then turbo to Worcester, it is almost impossible to get to Oxford with GWR from London unless I have missed something. Crosscountry would have to be used adding an extra change AND GWR didn't say that XC could be travelled on with gwr tickets as far as I could see. Whilst no one is really checking tickets so this is pretty much fine, I feel Reading is just a better terminus.

Maybe they just don't have enough Turbos to do that, considering that they need to use them in other places too. At least London passengers have the option of Chiltern from Oxford.

 

[HST274]

Ideally you’d join the Cotswold trains with the Oxford to Didcot stoppers, as this would provide connections at Didcot without using more stock (maybe one extra unit to match up the services, I haven’t checked in detail). I imagine this extra planning is the last thing anyone needs right now, but maybe something to consider if this lasts a bit longer.

Yes I doubt they want to disrupt one of the services still running smoothly.

 

[Horizon22]

I meant with GWR. Are Chiltern allowing GWR passengers if so then that does make it a little better

There's also the length of route and turnaround to allow 2 diagrams to work. And yes GWR has ticket acceptance with practically everyone relevant.

 

[Watershed]

My mistake. They had only specified avanti and wmr on their undeleted tweets and it isn't exactly obvious on their websites.

It's stated at the bottom of their disruption page.

 

[matacaster]

The aircraft industry are past masters of investigating monocoque structural cracking including the use of repetitive destructive testing in a rig to handle large pieces of aluminium. Does Hitachi or other railway body have such equipment and expertise? Should they bring in BAE to help with investigation if not?

 

[nickswift99]

Chiltern to Oxford is an alternative.

XC if you really need to go via Reading - but the point is to get passengers to avoid GWR if possible.

 

[fgwrich]

The safest train is a train which is not moving. In this case, the issue has been deemed serious enough by qualified professionals that immediate inspection of the entire fleet was necessary, and immediate withdrawal from service of units which have not passed inspection.

Almost the entire GWR fleet has been disqualified, nobody responsible for train operations will make such a decision if it's not absolutely necessary. The financial and reputational impact this issue will have on the railways is massive.

If cracks were found on one unit during an inspection (probably a fitter noticing something being wrong) and then were found on a lot of different units as well, there's little data available about how long this has been an issue. It's possible that the issue developed gradually over time, but it's very well possible that the issue has appeared over the course of a few weeks. That makes it hard to predict how it will further develop, at what timeframe, and for how long a unit can continue to be used safely until the problem gets "too big".

Just to give an indication of how seriously Hitachi are taking this, one of the "marooned" sets moved up from Temple Meads to Stoke Gifford today at a max speed of 5 mph. I believe it was due to go out in service yesterday when the message was passed to the driver that it his service was cancelled, and not to be moved anywhere.

 

[24Grange]

Hmm, tricky. If she had to do it, probably best to go on the Friday (14th) to avoid any engineering work. For the least amount of changes I'd say go Waterloo - Exeter (have to change at Salisbury by the looks of it), then get a stopper from Exeter to Truro and down to Falmouth.
Coming all the way from Buntingford (starting at Stevenage or thereabouts I assume?) I'd probably say her journey wants to start about midday though !

Thanks ! Yes Friday looks the better bet - although she may have already brought her ticket ( I know fridays are more expensive) I don't think the Waterloo - Exeter trains even have a catering trolley anymore ?

Irony is she was going to drive, but thought going by train would be less stressful! I did have a look at National Express to Exeter, but don't think the 787 Cambridge - Heathrow is running to connect to the Exeter Coach, and pick up the train at St Davids.

 

[Doomotron]

Scotrail have now removed some trains due to cracks

Cracks found on several ScotRail electric trains after urgent safety checks

Several ScotRail trains have been found to have hairline cracks as part a widespread safety investigation also affecting other operators such as LNER, The Scotsman has learned.

www.scotsman.com

Let's hope Southeastern don't make it a treble...

 

[Horizon22]

There's an intention that 387s to Swindon could start as early as the middle of this week.

 

[24Grange]

I guess Paddington- Bristol - Swansea is the core route, with Bristol-Penzance, secondary ? and they will try and prioritise that first? South West served by SWR and XC and local Penzance- Exeter,which will help.

 

[Horizon22]

I guess Padd- Bristol - Swansea is the core route, with Bristol-Pen, secondary ? and they will try and prioritise that first? South West served by SWR and XC and local Pen- Exe,which will help.

Fairly sure that getting a West Country service up and running is the next priority.