EMR Class 360's

[_toommm_]

Trainspotting with Opentraintimes maps from home...

There's a 5H24 10.28 STP-COR that hotly pursues the Melton train (running in a Corby Electrics path). It is shown as going on top of 1H42 12.11 COR-STP in the single platform at Corby. How does that work? (16 cars...).
It's also odd that 5H24 becomes the rear train and 1H42 the front for the return.

Looks like 5H24 forms 1H42 so nothing goes on top of anything.

 

[swt_passenger]

Looking at it now, at 1245, the next departure 1H48 is already showing in the platform at Corby, but 1Y23 that forms it is still at Kettering…

 

[JN114]

Looking at it now, at 1245, the next departure 1H48 is already showing in the platform at Corby, but 1Y23 that forms it is still at Kettering…

Remember that the train describer - what open train times and the ilk display a copy of - is essentially the signallers’ whiteboard - they are free to input whatever they want on there.

Just because a TD is shown, does not mean a train is actually there. Perhaps the signaller is just being proactive and setting up the next description before the train arrives?

 

[swt_passenger]

Remember that the train describer - what open train times and the ilk display a copy of - is essentially the signallers’ whiteboard - they are free to input whatever they want on there.

Just because a TD is shown, does not mean a train is actually there. Perhaps the signaller is just being proactive and setting up the next description before the train arrives?

Yes I see that, and it’s obvious really when you think about it.

Anyway, I watched the next services come and go, and the incoming train and outgoing were showing together for a few minutes in the two berths, 1H48 - 1Y23 in left and right positions respectively. (Which will be what @Merle Haggard must have seen earlier.). Then 1Y23 swapped to the left hand, and after another few minutes changed to 1H48 but now showing in yellow.

So does that mean for some reason opentraintimes now couldn’t associate the ID with its schedule - it‘s how they explain the yellow colour?

 

[Merle Haggard]

Looks like 5H24 forms 1H42 so nothing goes on top of anything.

Well, OTT Maps showed 1H42 already in the platform when 5H24 was approaching from Kettering...
But you're right, the reason for the ECS is to provide the stock for 1H42 (because the usual inward working continues to Melton).
I should get out more, as they say .

 

[JN114]

Well, OTT Maps showed 1H42 already in the platform when 5H24 was approaching from Kettering...

OTT Maps showed a description in the platform when 5H24 was approaching from Kettering. As I said earlier - the presence of a description does not mean there is a train there.

Anyway, I watched the next services come and go, and the incoming train and outgoing were showing together for a few minutes in the two berths, 1H48 - 1Y23 in left and right positions respectively. (Which will be what @Merle Haggard must have seen earlier.). Then 1Y23 swapped to the left hand, and after another few minutes changed to 1H48 but now showing in yellow.

Possibly an unintended consequence of setting up early - when the real train arrives and the description steps into the platform, it shuffles the one already typed in along, so you end up with the inward description “in front of” the outward. But there’s still only one train there; and as you attest to the signaller then corrects it after.

It’s somewhat of an unintended consequence of all this data being open and accessible to all, the confusion that arises. OTT and others are just repeating the contents of the little boxes on the real train Describer - which until a couple of years ago only could be read by people who were “trained” to understand them. Nowadays literally anyone can see them, but as evidenced here not everyone understands what is being shown. I’m not saying it shouldn’t be open, far from it, just cautioning that we are not the intended audience, and shouldn’t read too deeply into what we see.

There’s all manner of reasons why schedule association may fail - I couldn’t comment without more info.

 

[Ethan1852]

Not sure if it has been mentioned before but it has been mentioned by a driver for EMR.

The route is 100MPH except from Bedford going north up until Wellingborough where it is 110MPH.

I'm surprised it isn't 110MPH all the way north.

 

[43102EMR]

Not sure if it has been mentioned before but it has been mentioned by a driver for EMR.

The route is 100MPH except from Bedford going north up until Wellingborough where it is 110MPH.

I'm surprised it isn't 110MPH all the way north.

The OHLE south of Bedford needs upgrading to enable operations above 100mph.

 

[londonmidland]

Some pictures I took today on my journey from St. Pancras to Kettering.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Nice photos but I am absolutely dumbfounded that anyone would choose to travel on that to Kettering rather than the lovely fast Meridian
It's a pretty shameful downgrade - hoping the refurbishment comes soon

 

[westcoaster]

More cancellations this even the circuit that comes of cricklewood never left the Depot.
1 and a half round trips cancelled now starting back up from Kettering .

Not going to well is it. ( train home is also a meridvice 360, do I detect a problem arising?)

 

[Railperf]

More cancellations this even the circuit that comes of cricklewood never left the Depot.
1 and a half round trips cancelled now starting back up from Kettering .

Not going to well is it. ( train home is also a meridvice 360, do I detect a problem arising?)

There's nothing wrong with the trains. These were among the most reliable on the UK network in the last couple of years.
Am I right guessing that sitting around in sidings has not been good for them? Did they receive the same level of maintenance in the last six months with the previous TOC or was it run down as transfer time came?
Can it be expected that EMR fitters need more time to get to know these trains inside out?

The OHLE south of Bedford needs upgrading to enable operations above 100mph.

What did Network Rail do to upgrade the similar design 'knitting' on the ECML and GWML to allow 110mph running?

 

[JonathanH]

2145 from St Pancras to Corby appears to be shown as a 4-car unit on Tiger (with the inbound working starting 24 minutes late at Kettering https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G91136/2021-05-17/detailed, presumably as a knock on to a working running empty from Hendon https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/27169/2021-05-17/detailed)

 

[Bald Rick]

What did Network Rail do to upgrade the similar design 'knitting' on the ECML and GWML to allow 110mph running?

Unfortunately, ‘similar’ isnt good enough.

The OLE on the ECML was always designed for 125mph, and didn’t need upgrading. IIRC it was the same on the GWML east of Airport Jn. West of there is designed for 140mph.

The OLE on the MML was very definitely not designed for 125mph (or even 110mph). As has been posted elsewhere (possibly on this thread) certain components in some part s of the registration are not suitable for the higher speed running, and I’m reasonably sure the wire tension needs raising.

 

[londonmidland]

What did Network Rail do to upgrade the similar design 'knitting' on the ECML and GWML to allow 110mph running?

I believe it isn’t the headspans that are the issue, but the single track cantilevers don’t allow for minimal required vertical movement above 100mph.

These sort (ignore location of York)

 

[Bald Rick]

This post by @59CosG95 explains...

MML Electrification: progress updates

Can confirm via a LinkedIn post that piling has resumed for KO1a OLE work, on the Fasts in the Kettering area. 1606292900 Another LinkedIn update - the OLE between Bedford & Kettering/Corby (i.e. KO1, not KO1a) has now been permanently energised...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[59CosG95]

This post by @59CosG95 explains...

MML Electrification: progress updates

Can confirm via a LinkedIn post that piling has resumed for KO1a OLE work, on the Fasts in the Kettering area. 1606292900 Another LinkedIn update - the OLE between Bedford & Kettering/Corby (i.e. KO1, not KO1a) has now been permanently energised...

www.railforums.co.uk

Hope this helps! Other locations where the contrast in cantilever types is visible include Peterborough, and the former Three Counties station between Hitchin & Arlesey.
The general rule of thumb is that deep-curve steady arms are capable of higher speeds (contenary near overbridges/tunnels is the exception to the rule). Shallow-curve arms on single track cantilevers are the standard on the MML (look for photos around Ampthill as an example).

I seem to recall that, at least on UKMS125 OLE, the overlap droppers are set up ever so slightly differently to UKMS100/Mk3 OLE.

 

[WiredUp]

Unfortunately, ‘similar’ isnt good enough.

The OLE on the ECML was always designed for 125mph, and didn’t need upgrading. IIRC it was the same on the GWML east of Airport Jn. West of there is designed for 140mph.

The OLE on the MML was very definitely not designed for 125mph (or even 110mph). As has been posted elsewhere (possibly on this thread) certain components in some part s of the registration are not suitable for the higher speed running, and I’m reasonably sure the wire tension needs raising.

Not quite, it could be best described as a 125mph capable OLE system; attainable with subtle modifications.

The OLE on the MML was one (if not) the first installation of auto-tensioned Mk3B in the UK. The system has the correct contact and catenary wire tensions (11kN/11kN) and does not need re-tensioning if single pantographs of the HSP or HSX type are used. Its issue is that where STC's are in situ these the steady arms are of the shallow curve type, and not the deep curve type predominantly seen on headspans. The shallow curve type (when fitted to STCs) provide insufficient uplift for anything greater than 110mph; these would be an issue around the Ampthill Tunnel area where the HST speed is 125mph on both the Down and Up Fast Lines as alluded to elsewhere in this thread. There are also several other issues on the MML:

- Bridge grading and clearances at fitted overbridges, it is assume that these were setup for no more than 100mph when installed - records are unclear!
- Clearance from the contact wire to the lowest spanwire, which is substandard in certain headspan areas
- Presence of split span wires between the Fast Lines and Slow Lines - a case in point is around Stewartby
- A general drift away from the correct heights and staggers for anything more than 100mph.

The ECML uses STC's with drop brackets and deep curve steady arms. When correctly setup these can accommodate >125mph operation and have 250mm - 300mm uplift - whereas the shallow curve type only give something like 150mm.

West of Stockley Viaduct Series 1 is installed, this can be operated at up to 140mph with the correct pantograph types, but not where any overbridges use the fitted GFRP bridge arms - these are limited to 125mph to avoid forming hard spots in the contact wire.

 

[Bald Rick]

Not quite, it could be best described as a 125mph capable OLE system; attainable with subtle modifications.

The OLE on the MML was one (if not) the first installation of auto-tensioned Mk3B in the UK. The system has the correct contact and catenary wire tensions (11kN/11kN) and does not need re-tensioning if single pantographs of the HSP or HSX type are used. Its issue is that where STC's are in situ these the steady arms are of the shallow curve type, and not the deep curve type predominantly seen on headspans. The shallow curve type (when fitted to STCs) provide insufficient uplift for anything greater than 110mph; these would be an issue around the Ampthill Tunnel area where the HST speed is 125mph on both the Down and Up Fast Lines as alluded to elsewhere in this thread. There are also several other issues on the MML:

- Bridge grading and clearances at fitted overbridges, it is assume that these were setup for no more than 100mph when installed - records are unclear!
- Clearance from the contact wire to the lowest spanwire, which is substandard in certain headspan areas
- Presence of split span wires between the Fast Lines and Slow Lines - a case in point is around Stewartby
- A general drift away from the correct heights and staggers for anything more than 100mph.

The ECML uses STC's with drop brackets and deep curve steady arms. When correctly setup these can accommodate >125mph operation and have 250mm - 300mm uplift - whereas the shallow curve type only give something like 150mm.

West of Stockley Viaduct Series 1 is installed, this can be operated at up to 140mph with the correct pantograph types, but not where any overbridges use the fitted GFRP bridge arms - these are limited to 125mph to avoid forming hard spots in the contact wire.

Thank you for that - explains it perfectly.

I should perhaps have said the MML was not installed as a 125mph system.

Reasonable to assume that the MML south of Bedford will need multiple pan operation at 125mph - is the current tension ok for that?

 

[WiredUp]

Yes the tensions should be fine provided nice new modern pantographs are used.

South of Bedford probably Long Meadow Farm (Sundon) - Bedford South (where UKMS125 commences) would require 125mph EMU operation, it's been done between Paddington and Stockley Junction before so it would just require modification (and money £££ from the project team). The other areas which could potentially be done are Elstree & Borehamwood - St Albans (or even further south at Mill Hill if you want to resolve the Fast line tunnel aerodynamics issue at Elstree.), St Albans to Harpenden (HST 115mph/120mph spilt), and then finally Luton - Sundon.

The biggest time gain - aka BCR - is Luton/Sundon - Bedford.

Harpenden - Luton is quite a quick win (although it varies from 110mph down to 90mph); there is only one fitted bridge to worry about regrading. The linespeed also never exceeds 110mph (it's mainly 105mph or 100mph on the Fast Lines) so little if any modifications to the STC's, required around the Chiltern Green and Luton Airport Parkway areas, would be needed.

 

[Wolfie]

Nice photos but I am absolutely dumbfounded that anyone would choose to travel on that to Kettering rather than the lovely fast Meridian
It's a pretty shameful downgrade - hoping the refurbishment comes soon

Meridio seating is pretty awful.

 

[59CosG95]

Not quite, it could be best described as a 125mph capable OLE system; attainable with subtle modifications.

The OLE on the MML was one (if not) the first installation of auto-tensioned Mk3B in the UK. The system has the correct contact and catenary wire tensions (11kN/11kN) and does not need re-tensioning if single pantographs of the HSP or HSX type are used. Its issue is that where STC's are in situ these the steady arms are of the shallow curve type, and not the deep curve type predominantly seen on headspans. The shallow curve type (when fitted to STCs) provide insufficient uplift for anything greater than 110mph; these would be an issue around the Ampthill Tunnel area where the HST speed is 125mph on both the Down and Up Fast Lines as alluded to elsewhere in this thread. There are also several other issues on the MML:

- Bridge grading and clearances at fitted overbridges, it is assume that these were setup for no more than 100mph when installed - records are unclear!
- Clearance from the contact wire to the lowest spanwire, which is substandard in certain headspan areas
- Presence of split span wires between the Fast Lines and Slow Lines - a case in point is around Stewartby
- A general drift away from the correct heights and staggers for anything more than 100mph.

The ECML uses STC's with drop brackets and deep curve steady arms. When correctly setup these can accommodate >125mph operation and have 250mm - 300mm uplift - whereas the shallow curve type only give something like 150mm.

West of Stockley Viaduct Series 1 is installed, this can be operated at up to 140mph with the correct pantograph types, but not where any overbridges use the fitted GFRP bridge arms - these are limited to 125mph to avoid forming hard spots in the contact wire.

Yes the tensions should be fine provided nice new modern pantographs are used.

South of Bedford probably Long Meadow Farm (Sundon) - Bedford South (where UKMS125 commences) would require 125mph EMU operation, it's been done between Paddington and Stockley Junction before so it would just require modification (and money £££ from the project team). The other areas which could potentially be done are Elstree & Borehamwood - St Albans (or even further south at Mill Hill if you want to resolve the Fast line tunnel aerodynamics issue at Elstree.), St Albans to Harpenden (HST 115mph/120mph spilt), and then finally Luton - Sundon.

The biggest time gain - aka BCR - is Luton/Sundon - Bedford.

Harpenden - Luton is quite a quick win (although it varies from 110mph down to 90mph); there is only one fitted bridge to worry about regrading. The linespeed also never exceeds 110mph (it's mainly 105mph or 100mph on the Fast Lines) so little if any modifications to the STC's, required around the Chiltern Green and Luton Airport Parkway areas, would be needed.

Thanks very much for this comprehensive explanation! I'm guessing that a few small alterations around the new sectioning areas and the current sectioning areas due for removal are also due to occur.

 

[Chiltern006]

Meridio seating is pretty awful.

thats something I've never heard before

 

[ExRes]

thats something I've never heard before

I rather think it's a typo, Meridio seating certainly exists but I really can't imagine it being used for trains, if it was fitted I'd love to see the reactions

 

[Wolfie]

I rather think it's a typo, Meridio seating certainly exists but I really can't imagine it being used for trains, if it was fitted I'd love to see the reactions

Oops, it was predictive text at it's finest, lol.

 

[WesternLancer]

thats something I've never heard before

Yep - gone v poor in Std Class on Meridians. 1st is OK but in std the seat base cushions have lost much of their 'stuffing'/padding - so when you sit down, esp the ones next to windows that I guess are more heavily used, you can feel the seat frame through your backside. Feels like seat pad is about to give way for a split second in some cases (obv it's not). Very poor, and way worse than an 'ironing board' seat.
In 1st it's OK - I guess thicker seat pads and probably less use over equivalent time.

This is in addition to quite worn to threadbare in places / not esp clean seat fabric. Bad wear on fabric on seat arms in particular - not uncommon to be torn. Again in 2nd - 1st not being fabric.

It's very poor and will be the case for at least 2 years until the 800s come I presume.

Typically poor planning by DfT - since the trains will almost certainly have a use with another TOC there was no reason not to commence a generic internal refurb to solve this - since it has to be solved, and could, say have been started whilst HST fleet was at strength. But obv the DfT approach is to pretend this can only happen as part of a new franchise type activity (I assume they imagine that interior train wear is somehow related tot he lifespan of their franchise periods?) so the passenger is left to put up with declining standard of train comfort - alongside fares increases as product quality declines.

 

[43102EMR]

Anymore issues so far today? Looking on Twitter I can see a lot of fury from passengers towards EMR, particularly the Wellingborough commuters...

 

[WiredUp]

Thanks very much for this comprehensive explanation! I'm guessing that a few small alterations around the new sectioning areas and the current sectioning areas due for removal are also due to occur.

Yes in particular the Neutral Section at Sundon FS.

 

[Bald Rick]

Anymore issues so far today? Looking on Twitter I can see a lot of fury from passengers towards EMR, particularly the Wellingborough commuters...

Some minor delays after the peak due to a points failure at Leagrave, but everything has run and only 3 Corby trains so far have missed PPM (and none by more than 5 minutes).

 

[43102EMR]

Some minor delays after the peak due to a points failure at Leagrave, but everything has run and only 3 Corby trains so far have missed PPM (and none by more than 5 minutes).

Not to shabby - at least all diagrams are 360s today which is a good sign!