Best UK 'High-speed train'

[Railperf]

222 - so EMT/EMR. Actually the tilting Class 221 Voyager could have been a winner with a better interior and better sound insulation from the engines - plus a better WC implementation to avoid the 'odour' issues! I'd much prefer a Class 755 style compact power pack at each end than underfloor engines, but hey you can't have everything lol.

 

[MattRat]

222 - so EMT/EMR. Actually the tilting Class 221 Voyager could have been a winner with a better interior and better sound insulation from the engines - plus a better WC implementation to avoid the 'odour' issues! I'd much prefer a Class 755 style compact power pack at each end than underfloor engines, but hey you can't have everything lol.

Shame Virgin trains collapsed. Avanti West Coast isn't bad, but everything else that replaced Virgin, IMO, is.

 

[AM9]

I just don't want people blaming the Japanese for a product they didn't build. Put the blame where it belongs.

All of the class 8xx units are Japanese designs and manufacture is controlled by Hitachi. Wherever faulty units were made, the materials, components (even the German engines), processes and testing is the sole responsibility of the Japanese company Hitachi, so if you want to 'blame' any country, it is Japan. Personally I think that they are OK, - many trains have had teething problems following their introduction, it doesn't necessarily make them bad forever.

 

[Purple Orange]

Eurostar trains cannot be used by UK passengers between two UK stations. Therefore irrelevant. But they do qualify in a best International high-speed train survey.
The Class 395 is a great high-speed commuter train - particularly if you live in Ashford or on the Kent Coast stations served via Ashford. However, the interior is as dull as ditchwater and there are no amenities on board. It has a limited range of operations and destination compared to say an IET.

And would you choose a Class 395 over a pendolino on the WCML? Seriously?

You have to ask the question, what train currently running today can reach every destination on the UK Intercity map and provides the best overall passenger experience - including comfort and ride. So the train has to be bi-mode or diesel.

For the average passenger, the shiny new bi-mode IET will do the job. The enthusiasts choice will usually be the HST due to the comfier looking seats, and lack of engine /electrical noise.
Probably the best train would be a modern HST2 with bi-mode or trimode power cars/power packs and a comfort level approaching the LNER Mk3/MK4 XC Mk 3 standard of seating, windows lining up with tables etc. But as it doesn't exist yet, we are stuck with HST. This is the only train that currently provides the best level of passenger comfort and can reach EVERY destination on the UK Intercity network. it is the winner for that reason.

The OP posed the question and included Eurostar, therefore it’s a valid option to pick.

Yes I prefer a Javelin over a Pendolino.

As for enthusiasts v average passenger, do you not think that regular passengers take a view on comfort and value it? Or is that just for enthusiasts? RailUK gives a good insight in to the minds of enthusiasts and I have to say that often I simply do not relate. Windows not aligned with seats? Doesn’t bother me in the slightest.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2021 ==

Eurostar trains cannot be used by UK passengers between two UK stations. Therefore irrelevant. But they do qualify in a best International high-speed train survey.
The Class 395 is a great high-speed commuter train - particularly if you live in Ashford or on the Kent Coast stations served via Ashford. However, the interior is as dull as ditchwater and there are no amenities on board. It has a limited range of operations and destination compared to say an IET.

And would you choose a Class 395 over a pendolino on the WCML? Seriously?

You have to ask the question, what train currently running today can reach every destination on the UK Intercity map and provides the best overall passenger experience - including comfort and ride. So the train has to be bi-mode or diesel.

For the average passenger, the shiny new bi-mode IET will do the job. The enthusiasts choice will usually be the HST due to the comfier looking seats, and lack of engine /electrical noise.
Probably the best train would be a modern HST2 with bi-mode or trimode power cars/power packs and a comfort level approaching the LNER Mk3/MK4 XC Mk 3 standard of seating, windows lining up with tables etc. But as it doesn't exist yet, we are stuck with HST. This is the only train that currently provides the best level of passenger comfort and can reach EVERY destination on the UK Intercity network. it is the winner for that reason.

The OP posed the question and included Eurostar, therefore it’s a valid option to pick.

Yes I prefer a Javelin over a Pendolino.

As for enthusiasts v average passenger, do you not think that regular passengers take a view on comfort and value it? Or is that just for enthusiasts? RailUK gives a good insight in to the minds of enthusiasts and I have to say that often I simply do not relate. Windows not aligned with seats? Doesn’t bother me in the slightest.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Class 390 Pendolinos are the only trains where I can travel for several hours and then be sad to get off. I adore them, they look spectacular, they have extremely comfortable seats and a cozy interior, the tilting is AMAZING and train very unique with the supermarket, table lamps etc

Has always been my favourite train both in the UK and including foreign stock without fail

 

[MattRat]

The OP posed the question and included Eurostar, therefore it’s a valid option to pick.

Yes I prefer a Javelin over a Pendolino.

As for enthusiasts v average passenger, do you not think that regular passengers take a view on comfort and value it? Or is that just for enthusiasts? RailUK gives a good insight in to the minds of enthusiasts and I have to say that often I simply do not relate. Windows not aligned with seats? Doesn’t bother me in the slightest.

I did also say I did it so I didn't have comments saying 'Where's X?'. Which someone clearly didn't read....

Speaking of which, I did also say it's about a person's personal opinion, and opinions do tend to differ, lol. Or have things gotten so bad we aren't even allowed to disagree about trains now....

 

[Metal_gee_man]

It's a 3-way play-off, but in reality it's a matter of choice.

395
Pros: fast, dual voltage, gets A-B quickly with minimal breakdowns.
Cons: Interior dull, limited speeds on 3rd rail
390
Pros: comfortable, revolutionary for the WCML, tilt (it's just cool) iconic too.
Cons: slow acceleration, cramped interiors (because of tilt) OHLE only
80X
Pros: good acceleration on both diesel and OHLE, reduced journey times on ECML and GWML, a game changer for TPE
Cons: poor seats, rough ride at 125mph, poor build quality internal rattles, and the cracks on the jacking points?

For me whilst not perfect after the 12 years of service the 395s have changed the face of high speed travel in the UK and were victim of their success (pre-covid) it edge's it for me.

 

[MattRat]

It's a 3-way play-off, but in reality it's a matter of choice.

395
Pros: fast, dual voltage, gets A-B quickly with minimal breakdowns.
Cons: Interior dull, limited speeds on 3rd rail
390
Pros: comfortable, revolutionary for the WCML, tilt (it's just cool) iconic too.
Cons: slow acceleration, cramped interiors (because of tilt) OHLE only
80X
Pros: good acceleration on both diesel and OHLE, reduced journey times on ECML and GWML, a game changer for TPE
Cons: poor seats, rough ride at 125mph, poor build quality internal rattles, and the cracks on the jacking points?

For me whilst not perfect after the 12 years of service the 395s have changed the face of high speed travel in the UK and were victim of their success (pre-covid) it edge's it for me.

I presume that's personal opinion, but on the actual poll, the '3 way play-off' is actually between the Class 43, Class 91, and Class 390. That last one surprises me, but it's a welcome one. This is as of writing BTW.

 

[507020]

If the question is about the best British train, only the HST, 91 and APT qualify and of these the APT is the best concept, but it wasn’t finished when the funding was cut. The design of the 91 in part came from the APT, which also spawned the Italian Pendolinos, and thus the 390, so I’ll have to go with that. Does anyone know why the ride quality of CAF 397s (and 195s which also run on the northern WCML on Barrow/Windermere services) is so much worse than on Pendolinos, even at lower speeds?

 

[MattRat]

If the question is about the best British train, only the HST, 91 and APT qualify and of these the APT is the best concept, but it wasn’t finished when the funding was cut. The design of the 91 in part came from the APT, which also spawned the Italian Pendolinos, and thus the 390, so I’ll have to go with that. Does anyone know why the ride quality of CAF 397s (and 195s which also run on the northern WCML on Barrow/Windermere services) is so much worse than on Pendolinos, even at lower speeds?

The question is the best high speed train you can ride on in the UK, but I didn't want a title that long, and I didn't think people would nitpick like this. As for your other question, it might have something to do with faults found in the 195s/331s regarding yaw damper mounting brackets, which apparently are to do with stopping swaying. I imagine those parts being bad in general would hamper ride quality.

 

[XAM2175]

I didn't think people would nitpick like this

You really are new here.

it might have something to do with faults found in the 195s/331s regarding yaw damper mounting brackets, which apparently are to do with stopping swaying. I imagine those parts being bad in general would hamper ride quality.

No. There is a suggestion that some other aspect of the design that causes the rough ride may have contributed to the yaw damper troubles, but to the best of my knowledge this is unsubstantiated - and in any case the problem has not been found affect Class 397 units.

 

[MattRat]

You really are new here.

No. There is a suggestion that some other aspect of the design that causes the rough ride may have contributed to the yaw damper troubles, but to the best of my knowledge this is unsubstantiated - and in any case the problem has not been found affect Class 397 units.

I thought people here were smarter and could figure things out . That's called a joke by the way

As for your other point, if the bad ride is suspension related (which in most cases it would be), then the two things would in fact be quite closely linked.

 

[507020]

the problem has not been found affect Class 397 units.

Yet…

The 397s are a bit newer and have only run on the WCML and branches to Liverpool, Manchester, Glasgow and Edinburgh. 195s and 331s have been to many more places, perhaps including the one where the problem originates…

 

[DustyBin]

Very few votes for the 180 which is understandable given their appalling reliability, but I travel on the GC ones a few times a year and they are actually decent trains from a passenger perspective. I certainly prefer them to a Voyager or 80x.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Either I missed it or you've said it elsewhere that I haven't seen. And do they really have nothing in common? I would have thought Hitachi would use the Class 395 as a base when designing the Class 8XX, as that would cut down on costs.

80x and 395 are both based on Hitachi's A-train and are described as being in the AT300 family.
There will be common components/design in some areas. Whether this is in the problematic area I wouldn't know.
Scotrail's 385s are described as from the AT200 family, but are also based on the A-train.
The trains have some relatively minor European/UK content, the most significant being the diesel power packs for 80x from MTU (owned by Rolls Royce).
385/395 were assembled in Japan, 80x in Japan (early production), UK (the majority) and Italy (802).

 

[driverd]

Very few votes for the 180... I certainly prefer them to a Voyager or 80x.

Unfortunately, that's not saying much!

Personally I voted for the HST. I see myself as a pragmatist, rather than someone voting on the grounds of nostalgia. Simply, the HST offers the best compromise of proven reliability, comfort, go-anywhere capability and future ready design (even if it is now reaching the end of its life).

Reliability is self evident, they've been soldiering on for years, and also benefit from the "back up" of having two power vehicles.

Comfort is subjective, but, there isn't a single HST interior spec that I'd say isn't better than every other contender. Yes, the VTEC IC70 interior was awful as far as HST interiors go, but still far better than that of the 80x. Ride quality was generally better than the others (although latterly some mk3s did suffer with suspension akin to a space hopper, cally sleeper I'm looking at you). Interior spec was also superb, a full, proper dining car or shop area (GWR) was such an excellent feature, and one who's absence has been often noted on these forums, from new designs. If we also look at storage space for cycles, luggage etc, the HST provided. 80x & voyagers crucially lack this (although interestingly 180s do provide).

Go anywhere capability is self evident, to me, its something that's been a pretty major drawback for the 373s and mk4 sets (in terms of infrastructure compatibility, rather than power supply).

Finally, future proof design is really the biggie for me.
Will 180s ever be re-engined (multiple times in their life)? Unlikely.
Can we shuffle 80x's vehicles around when a technical issue (yaw damper crack perhaps) is found on one vehicle in nine? No, not without great difficulty.
Can a 390 be reduced to 4 carriages and work as a regional express unit, cost effectively, and in great comfort, even compared to contemporary newcomers, some 50 years after its inception? To be seen, but I'm sure we'd all have a similar expectation here...

It's not nostalgia, it's a clear winner.

 

[MattRat]

Finally, future proof design is really the biggie for me.
Will 180s ever be re-engined (multiple times in their life)? Unlikely.
Can we shuffle 80x's vehicles around when a technical issue (yaw damper crack perhaps) is found on one vehicle in nine? No, not without great difficulty.
Can a 390 be reduced to 4 carriages and work as a regional express unit, cost effectively, and in great comfort, even compared to contemporary newcomers, some 50 years after its inception? To be seen, but I'm sure we'd all have a similar expectation here...

I mean, the 22X is probably future proof, if it can actually be looked after and used properly. Despite what XC might lead you to believe, it is actually stupidly easy to couple them together for extra capacity.

 

[driverd]

I mean, the 22X is probably future proof, if it can actually be looked after and used properly. Despite what XC might lead you to believe, it is actually stupidly easy to couple them together for extra capacity.

But its not easy to reform them. You can't turn a 5 car into a 6 car overnight, in the same way you can a HST.

I'd also debate how future proof they are. Horrendously expensive to lease, and, in the case of the 221 fleet, lumbering around heavy bogies and entirely redundant tilt equipment, it wouldn't surprise me at all if we see the first examples of 22x's being stored/scrapped within the next 10 years.

 

[Purple Orange]

I did also say I did it so I didn't have comments saying 'Where's X?'. Which someone clearly didn't read....

Speaking of which, I did also say it's about a person's personal opinion, and opinions do tend to differ, lol. Or have things gotten so bad we aren't even allowed to disagree about trains now....

Yes it’s all about opinions and the thread is full of them. IMHO the HST is not as great as many on this forum think it is. Fantastic for the late 20th century, not great for the early 21st century. Many people cite comfort of the seats as a major factor, yet the seats are interchangeable and not permanent fixtures of the train.

 

[MattRat]

But its not easy to reform them. You can't turn a 5 car into a 6 car overnight, in the same way you can a HST.

I'd also debate how future proof they are. Horrendously expensive to lease, and, in the case of the 221 fleet, lumbering around heavy bogies and entirely redundant tilt equipment, it wouldn't surprise me at all if we see the first examples of 22x's being stored/scrapped within the next 10 years.

The 222s used to be 4 and 9 car sets, but are now 4, 5 and 7 sets, so it possible. Being able to easily couple up also helps capacity. And of course I see the tilt mechanisms being removed at some point, it's a no brainer.

 

[sprinterguy]

In contrast I caught a XC HST the other day and it was fantastic, the seats actually look similar to those in the 80X but must be different?

The seats fitted to the Crosscountry HSTs were manufactured by Primarius, and are the same as those that were installed in the East Coast HST and mark 4 fleets during the 'Mallard' refurbishment circa 2005. The seats fitted to the 80x fleets are made by Fainsa.

 

[greatvoyager]

The 222s used to be 4 and 9 car sets, but are now 4, 5 and 7 sets, so it possible. Being able to easily couple up also helps capacity. And of course I see the tilt mechanisms being removed at some point, it's a no brainer.

The 7-car 222s also had to have the first class carriages swapped between them for some reason, as well as losing a standard carriage.

 

[Darandio]

Which operator for the 22X. They were fine under Virgin, and the only complaints I've heard are from people riding on XC.

They were exactly the same under Virgin. Same rattles, same noises, same smells........

 

[43096]

The 7-car 222s also had to have the first class carriages swapped between them for some reason, as well as losing a standard carriage.

It was explained to me at the time by someone at EMT and it was all very logical. Something to do with particular equipment from memory - possibly compressors.

 

[greatvoyager]

It was explained to me at the time by someone at EMT and it was all very logical. Something to do with particular equipment from memory - possibly compressors.

Thanks for explaining, always wondered why it was and that sounds logical.

 

[DustyBin]

Unfortunately, that's not saying much!

Personally I voted for the HST. I see myself as a pragmatist, rather than someone voting on the grounds of nostalgia. Simply, the HST offers the best compromise of proven reliability, comfort, go-anywhere capability and future ready design (even if it is now reaching the end of its life).

Reliability is self evident, they've been soldiering on for years, and also benefit from the "back up" of having two power vehicles.

Comfort is subjective, but, there isn't a single HST interior spec that I'd say isn't better than every other contender. Yes, the VTEC IC70 interior was awful as far as HST interiors go, but still far better than that of the 80x. Ride quality was generally better than the others (although latterly some mk3s did suffer with suspension akin to a space hopper, cally sleeper I'm looking at you). Interior spec was also superb, a full, proper dining car or shop area (GWR) was such an excellent feature, and one who's absence has been often noted on these forums, from new designs. If we also look at storage space for cycles, luggage etc, the HST provided. 80x & voyagers crucially lack this (although interestingly 180s do provide).

Go anywhere capability is self evident, to me, its something that's been a pretty major drawback for the 373s and mk4 sets (in terms of infrastructure compatibility, rather than power supply).

Finally, future proof design is really the biggie for me.
Will 180s ever be re-engined (multiple times in their life)? Unlikely.
Can we shuffle 80x's vehicles around when a technical issue (yaw damper crack perhaps) is found on one vehicle in nine? No, not without great difficulty.
Can a 390 be reduced to 4 carriages and work as a regional express unit, cost effectively, and in great comfort, even compared to contemporary newcomers, some 50 years after its inception? To be seen, but I'm sure we'd all have a similar expectation here...

It's not nostalgia, it's a clear winner.

I voted for the HST myself; I agree with everything you’ve said there!

The seats fitted to the Crosscountry HSTs were manufactured by Primarius, and are the same as those that were installed in the East Coast HST and mark 4 fleets during the 'Mallard' refurbishment circa 2005. The seats fitted to the 80x fleets are made by Fainsa.

Thanks, I’m not sure why I didn’t realise they were the same as the East Coast ones! Although it’s been a while since I travelled on one to be fair.

 

[Wolfie]

Which operator for the 22X. They were fine under Virgin, and the only complaints I've heard are from people riding on XC.

The 222s operated by EMR have a quite different interior to the 220/221 Voyagers.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 May 2021 ==

Shame Virgin trains collapsed. Avanti West Coast isn't bad, but everything else that replaced Virgin, IMO, is.

Virgin trains didn't collapse. The degree of Virgin involvement declined over the years in most Virgin branded operations (the exception was the West Coast but the Virgin element of the follow-on bid was much lower). Virgin and their majority partner Stagecoach were not, sensibly in my view, prepared to accept unquantified pension risk which DfT was seeking to foist on bidders. Hence their bid was disqualified.

 

[AM9]

80x and 395 are both based on Hitachi's A-train and are described as being in the AT300 family.
There will be common components/design in some areas. Whether this is in the problematic area I wouldn't know.
Scotrail's 385s are described as from the AT200 family, but are also based on the A-train.
The trains have some relatively minor European/UK content, the most significant being the diesel power packs for 80x from MTU (owned by Roll Royce).
385/395 were assembled in Japan, 80x in Japan (early production), UK (the majority) and Italy (802).

I chose the 395s because they are the only 'High Speed Trains' that domestic passengers can travel at 140mph. Despite the 8XX series being designed for 140mph (on OLE at least), there's no service in the UK running them at the moment.
I don't regard interior furniture as relevant when judging the merits or otherwise of a particular class. What matters to me is the ride over different quality track, the ambience in terms of temperature control, ventilation and noise (of the train, not the passengers). The livery, internal decor, seating, and announcements are all products of the image that the operator of the day cares to present to passengers, so with the majority of classes, all of that is likely to change within the revenue life of the rolling stock.

 

[Railperf]

Very few votes for the 180 which is understandable given their appalling reliability, but I travel on the GC ones a few times a year and they are actually decent trains from a passenger perspective. I certainly prefer them to a Voyager or 80x.

The GC interiors are quite comfy.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Which operator for the 22X. They were fine under Virgin, and the only complaints I've heard are from people riding on XC.

They weren't "fine" under Virgin at all. It was VXC who specified many of the flaws that still persist to this day. The overabundance of large toilets? Check. The already-obsolete audio entertainment system? Check. Toilet tanks too close to hot exhausts? Check. Stupidly over-specced "Shop" as opposed to the simple counters that worked fine for decades? Check. The only saving grace is that the shops weren't branded something like "Virgin Ministore" or something like that!

373s got my vote. The last time that the "customer experience" was truly at the forefront of the designers' minds when deciding how to build the things. No doubt like all vehicles they were specced to a cost, but it's pretty hard to tell (unlike some other examples, cough cough IET).