Why there are less cycle space on British trains compare to European ones?

[notlob.divad]

Indeed. Making matters worse is the fact that staff sometimes fill one of those sections with the litter collected from the rest of the train. Someone asked about this practice on Twitter a while ago, to which the reponse was "sorry, there is no other space on the train for the rubbish bags" - who on earth made that design decision??

They are also not visable from anywhere on the train, and I would not be happy leaving any bike in them without me being in the viccinity. As a result, I once did reading to Wolverhampton with my good bike in the bike rack and I sat on the floor under the luggage rack (I was not the only one) to quickly check on it at every station stop.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They are also not visable from anywhere on the train, and I would not be happy leaving any bike in them without me being in the viccinity. As a result, I once did reading to Wolverhampton with my good bike in the bike rack and I sat on the floor under the luggage rack (I was not the only one) to quickly check on it at every station stop.

Bike areas are often out of view (the original Virgin layout ones are too, and the 80x ones). Surprises me that no TOC has solved this in the obvious way of having CCTV there and a screen showing it in the adjacent saloon.

 

[mmh]

They are also not visable from anywhere on the train, and I would not be happy leaving any bike in them without me being in the viccinity. As a result, I once did reading to Wolverhampton with my good bike in the bike rack and I sat on the floor under the luggage rack (I was not the only one) to quickly check on it at every station stop.

This is no different from having a suitcase out of view in a luggage rack, which thousands of people do every day without complaint. I suspect the actual risk of theft of any type of luggage is vanishingly small.

 

[py_megapixel]

Bike areas are often out of view (the original Virgin layout ones are too, and the 80x ones). Surprises me that no TOC has solved this in the obvious way of having CCTV there and a screen showing it in the adjacent saloon.

Or maybe lockers with some sort of coin deposit system, like a more bike-shaped version of what's frequently seen in changing rooms. Realistically, the concern is somebody quickly taking your bike with them when they leave at a station - nobody is going to break down a door or destroy a lock to steal a bike on a train as they'd quickly attract attention.

 

[notlob.divad]

Bike areas are often out of view (the original Virgin layout ones are too, and the 80x ones). Surprises me that no TOC has solved this in the obvious way of having CCTV there and a screen showing it in the adjacent saloon.

From memory of the Pendolino layout, the advantage there was that the bikes were at least in a segregated end compartment, whereas on a voyager they are directly in the door saloon. The pendolino gave it a little bit more protection from the oppurtunist thief, it did at least have to be someone specifically going looking for one to steal.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is no different from having a suitcase out of view in a luggage rack, which thousands of people do every day without complaint. I suspect the actual risk of theft of any type of luggage is vanishingly small.

I'd think theft of expensive bicycles is rather higher risk than a bag of dirty clothes.

From memory of the Pendolino layout, the advantage there was that the bikes were at least in a segregated end compartment, whereas on a voyager they are directly in the door saloon. The pendolino gave it a little bit more protection from the oppurtunist thief, it did at least have to be someone specifically going looking for one to steal.

Actually pretty secure now the door from the saloon to the bike area is staff only (the button has been replaced with a carriage key lock). Though the door itself isn't that secure because it sometimes opens itself on a steep curve.

I suspect the reason this was done wasn't security, though, but rather so the person wanting their bike would be on the outside of the train and thus visible to the guard if they forgot about it.

 

[nw1]

There certainly used to be more bike space on UK trains, as recently as the late 90s you could put bikes in the guard's van when slam-door stock ran the majority of ex-Southern Region services. No worries in those days about transporting your bike say from Southampton to Brockenhurst, there would be room and the guard would even let you stand in the van to attend your bike.

I think there is a cultural thing too. In my experience, much of Continental Europe, particularly the Netherlands-Germany-Switzerland-Austria area, has much more of a developed cycle culture. Can't comment on train space, as I've never put a bike on a train on the Continent, but off-road routes between city centres and in rural areas seem much more developed in that part of the Continent.

The argument about bike space being a problem as it reduces the number of seats will also apply on the Continent, so culture must surely come to play. And somehow in the 80s and 90s they managed to allow bikes onto the guard's van of packed CIGs and VEPs in the rush hour without problem!

 

[notlob.divad]

I'd think theft of expensive bicycles is rather higher risk than a bag of dirty clothes.

Quite

Actually pretty secure now the door from the saloon to the bike area is staff only (the button has been replaced with a carriage key lock). Though the door itself isn't that secure because it sometimes opens itself on a steep curve.

I suspect the reason this was done wasn't security, though, but rather so the person wanting their bike would be on the outside of the train and thus visible to the guard if they forgot about it.

It has been quite a while since I used it (The voyager experience above put me off somewhat). It is nice to see the 'return' of effectively a guards van. Which IMO is the best solution for oversized luggage and bicycles. So long as it is well advertised which end of the train it is at and any change in formation well advertised. Sprinting the length of an 11 car train with a bike (not allowed to ride them on the platform) is no mean challenge, and getting one down the inside impossible.

 

[nw1]

Typical antagonistic response by someone who puts people in a box then slaps a list of qualities on that box (i.e. use of the term "group"), because they haven't considered that within any categorisation of a group of people, there can be huge variance in opinions, wants and needs. People are individuals.

We also seem to increasingly live in a society where 'hobby' is a dirty word. And that is not good. Making space for cyclists on trains for leisure purposes (e.g. transporting your bike from the city to the countryside) means less cars on the roads (as people will see the train as a viable means to travel to the countryside to do a bike ride) and reduces the need for cyclists to travel to the countryside from the town along busy main roads, because UK political culture does not encourage the creation of off-road routes out of cities, unlike large sections of the Continent.

Also the much derided 'hobbies' put money into the economy. If I travel by train with a bike to the New Forest, I might stop for a tea in the middle of the bike ride, and I will almost certainly go to a pub at the end. That is a lot of money put into the rural economy, and it might be lost if the train does not provide adequate cycle space.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I'd think theft of expensive bicycles is rather higher risk than a bag of dirty clothes.

Bikes can be locked. Even if the rules prohibit locking the bike to the train, it can be immobilised by locking the wheels to the frame. These days, with cheap cameras, you could fit a webcam to the bike (or any other unattended luggage) and monitor it from your seat.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Bikes can be locked. Even if the rules prohibit locking the bike to the train, it can be immobilised by locking the wheels to the frame. These days, with cheap cameras, you could fit a webcam to the bike (or any other unattended luggage) and monitor it from your seat.

Not very hard to pick one up.

 

[hkstudent]

There certainly used to be more bike space on UK trains, as recently as the late 90s you could put bikes in the guard's van when slam-door stock ran the majority of ex-Southern Region services. No worries in those days about transporting your bike say from Southampton to Brockenhurst, there would be room and the guard would even let you stand in the van to attend your bike.

I think there is a cultural thing too. In my experience, much of Continental Europe, particularly the Netherlands-Germany-Switzerland-Austria area, has much more of a developed cycle culture. Can't comment on train space, as I've never put a bike on a train on the Continent, but off-road routes between city centres and in rural areas seem much more developed in that part of the Continent.

The argument about bike space being a problem as it reduces the number of seats will also apply on the Continent, so culture must surely come to play. And somehow in the 80s and 90s they managed to allow bikes onto the guard's van of packed CIGs and VEPs in the rush hour without problem!

Pretty sure that culture plays the part in the game, with Europeans are more cycle friendly.
I do buy your point that cyclists without a car contribute more to the rural economy.

 

[RHolmes]

Or maybe lockers with some sort of coin deposit system, like a more bike-shaped version of what's frequently seen in changing rooms. Realistically, the concern is somebody quickly taking your bike with them when they leave at a station - nobody is going to break down a door or destroy a lock to steal a bike on a train as they'd quickly attract attention.

Lockable areas for passengers would not and will not be allowed for security reasons

 

[nw1]

Pretty sure that culture plays the part in the game, with Europeans are more cycle friendly.
I do buy your point that cyclists without a car contribute more to the rural economy.

Continental Europeans of course... Great Britain is part of Europe, just like Manhattan, Long Island, Newfoundland and Vancouver Island are all part of North America

(sorry, pet hate of mine, referring to 'Europe' as if it's an entity which excludes the UK)

 

[zwk500]

Lockable areas for passengers would not and will not be allowed for security reasons

However a supermarket trolley-style coin deposit chain to secure the bike would presumably not have that issue?

 

[py_megapixel]

Lockable areas for passengers would not and will not be allowed for security reasons

It wouldn't have to be a complete door (you could use a mesh one, or a partial one, just enough to make getting the bike out impractical) and the conductor could be given the key

Alternatively you could provide a rail for a passenger to lock the bike to with their own D-lock.

 

[norbitonflyer]

Not very hard to pick one (locked bike) up.

But more suspicious, and less easy to make off with. (Especially if there are two of you and you lock the bikes to each other)

 

[Techniquest]

Some of the ideas put forward here for improved security on bike areas are interesting. I've been touring in Shropshire today, hence my delayed response to this thread. I'm not sure locking the bike to something in the bike storage area is an overly good idea, but there are certainly worse ideas out there.

That space on Voyagers is meant for FOUR bikes?! Give over! IETs suggest the same, and I've no idea how. Given how much the handlebars stick out when the outermost space is in use, the door around the space cannot be shut and the catering trolley can barely get by, based on my experience a good few weeks back. I've not yet endured the bike space on a Voyager, indeed I had an itinerary this morning for a tour in Cheshire that had me on TfW to Crewe then Avanti to Chester. No thanks!

I am curious about the Pendolino bike area, I will have to do a trip using one some time but I do like the idea of it being locked away safely, away from other passengers. Maybe next week, money's a bit too tight currently to do another tour tomorrow.

I must say though, I do like the space for bikes on 397s, nice and easy to use. Same on TP MK5s, and there seems to have been an effort to provide a useful space. Along with pull-down seats for when the areas are not in use. 350s, I like their bike spaces too!

 

[dazzler]

Some of the ideas put forward here for improved security on bike areas are interesting. I've been touring in Shropshire today, hence my delayed response to this thread. I'm not sure locking the bike to something in the bike storage area is an overly good idea, but there are certainly worse ideas out there.

I've certainly locked my bike with a cable lock on a Voyager before now. That said, if it's a short trip - York-Darlington or Leeds - I'll just sit in the vestibule and keep an eye on it.

In the good old days - on stock with "proper guards vans" - you were encouraged to attach your bike to the parcel cage/window bars with a bungee strap (to stop it falling over) and most definitely **not** lock it!

That space on Voyagers is meant for FOUR bikes?!

Voyagers can take 3 bikes, there's an intrusion into the cubicle on one side that means you can only get one bike in there. The official line is 2 bikes pre-booked and one bike turn up and go, but I've seen 3 bikes just turn up and go on occasion!

 

[Techniquest]

Fair enough, thanks for the clarification. On XC I dare not have a reservation currently, although I must admit I did pass on the one issued to me on a recent Worcester to Coleshill journey. I wanted the 1752 not the 1709 out of Birmingham, so I was technically invalid without reservations by the looks of it. Thankfully the train was pretty quiet so it wasn't an issue.

Not that anyone checked of course, on either leg of the journey!

 

[hkstudent]

I've certainly locked my bike with a cable lock on a Voyager before now. That said, if it's a short trip - York-Darlington or Leeds - I'll just sit in the vestibule and keep an eye on it.

In the good old days - on stock with "proper guards vans" - you were encouraged to attach your bike to the parcel cage/window bars with a bungee strap (to stop it falling over) and most definitely **not** lock it!



Voyagers can take 3 bikes, there's an intrusion into the cubicle on one side that means you can only get one bike in there. The official line is 2 bikes pre-booked and one bike turn up and go, but I've seen 3 bikes just turn up and go on occasion!

Yeah, but strangely when 2 Class 222 are attached together, there's still only 2 cycle spaces reservable, instead of 4.

 

[telstarbox]

The chance of a bike thief being on the same train as your bike is pretty small. It's not the sort of thing you can conceal on your person like a phone or wallet.

 

[zwk500]

The chance of a bike thief being on the same train as your bike is pretty small. It's not the sort of thing you can conceal on your person like a phone or wallet.

Concealment actually tends to be more obviously shifty than just picking something up and walking off as if it's yours. There was a spate of thefts from trains a few years ago of people boarding trains at King's Cross, pretending they'd got on the wrong train and grabbing a case of the rack then alighting and heading back to the ticket barrier. It's easy to see how an unsecured bike would be very easy pickings.

It's similar to the principle that the easiest way to get into a restricted area is to wear a hi-vis vest and hard hat, and carry a clipboard or cardboard box. People will just wave you through without a second thought.

 

[Jozhua]

Generally there is less overall space on UK trains. Our trains are generally shorter than those seen in Europe or even North America.

The UK rail network has had quite a significant bounce back in the past 20 years and the DfT has been slow to respond, for laziness, incompetence and ideological reasons.

The UK appears to have all but ingored the network benefit on public transportation, how walking/cycling feeds into public transport and vice versa or how buses feed into trains instead of like competing with them (crazy idea I know!)

The best solution for most should be cheap or free secure bike parking at stations (takes up much less space than car parking anyway). Bike share schemes would also be useful if a bike is required on both ends.

People will still need to take bikes for riding in a certain destination, for longer trips or for moving and this is still not fulfilled by our current bike capacity. - Vertical stands should not be the standard. They are fine for a 500 gram carbon fibre racing bike with tyres the width of a few atoms, but for bikes people generally use on a day to day basis (e.g. Hybrid/Mountain), these are no good. I can't lift my bike into many of the stands even in biking sheds, the vertical situation would be nigh impossible, especially on a moving train!

Ultimately we have two choices. We can either nitpick about who deserves what space more, or focus on creating an attractive passenger-focused service that improves quality of life for those who rely on it, while creating an attractive alternative for those who may choose to drive instead.

Too often we focus on what is the most convenient to do, rather than what is actually the most beneficial to passengers. User-oriented design is the key to success and is the reason why iPhones for example, revolutionised the smartphone industry.

 

[hkstudent]

Generally there is less overall space on UK trains. Our trains are generally shorter than those seen in Europe or even North America.

The UK rail network has had quite a significant bounce back in the past 20 years and the DfT has been slow to respond, for laziness, incompetence and ideological reasons.

The UK appears to have all but ingored the network benefit on public transportation, how walking/cycling feeds into public transport and vice versa or how buses feed into trains instead of like competing with them (crazy idea I know!)

The best solution for most should be cheap or free secure bike parking at stations (takes up much less space than car parking anyway). Bike share schemes would also be useful if a bike is required on both ends.

People will still need to take bikes for riding in a certain destination, for longer trips or for moving and this is still not fulfilled by our current bike capacity. - Vertical stands should not be the standard. They are fine for a 500 gram carbon fibre racing bike with tyres the width of a few atoms, but for bikes people generally use on a day to day basis (e.g. Hybrid/Mountain), these are no good. I can't lift my bike into many of the stands even in biking sheds, the vertical situation would be nigh impossible, especially on a moving train!

Ultimately we have two choices. We can either nitpick about who deserves what space more, or focus on creating an attractive passenger-focused service that improves quality of life for those who rely on it, while creating an attractive alternative for those who may choose to drive instead.

Too often we focus on what is the most convenient to do, rather than what is actually the most beneficial to passengers. User-oriented design is the key to success and is the reason why iPhones for example, revolutionised the smartphone industry.

The issue is, narrow bike space is for box-ticking exercise for providing a certain number of bike spaces.
But for long-distance bike travel, many people would be using mountain bikes, or at best gravel bikes.
I would hope that some lower part of the longitudinal luggage area can be allowed for bike storage so that more bike space can be put in a train.

 

[Zontar]

Having seen the 230s "bike rack" designers must have got "bike" mixed up with "small dog"

 

[323235]

I didn't realise the Voyager bicycle racks required you to lift it up - I personally prefer the Class 397 type of arrange - plenty of space to just to place your bike.
I went on I think a TPE 802 or Mark? and couldn't understand how to use the cycle storage at all, so I left my bike sticking out.

I've been on 153s where people were dumping their luggage in the cycle area.

Likewise the 185 area in the middle is too small and you always encounter the same problem.

 

[24Grange]

Back in the day you just put your bike in the guards compartment - tons of room in there for loads of bikes!

 

[Wolfie]

Back in the day you just put your bike in the guards compartment - tons of room in there for loads of bikes!

Now you don't have a guard on many trains let alone a dedicated space....

 

[24Grange]

Progress they say ! and no buffet car, no hot food, less comfy seating, annoying announcements! airline seating, etc etc etc......