Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

[Nicholas Lewis]

Crew training won't start until there is a union agreement regardless of how many units there are. Sadly that's a long way off.

Whats the union issues over these?

 

[L401CJF]

Whats the union issues over these?

Merseyrail/Merseytravel wanting to go DOO, still undecided what roll the guard will have, should they be kept as far as I know.

 

[jamesst]

The guards dispute is still far from settled regardless of what certain quarters say.
Aslef won't talk over the drivers until the guards are settled.
Theres a long way to go.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The guards dispute is still far from settled regardless of what certain quarters say.
Aslef won't talk over the drivers until the guards are settled.
Theres a long way to go.

Four half years ago the 777's were ordered presumably as DOO so they've had plenty of time to get a resolution which i thought was settled that a 2nd person would be on board. So whats the issue now - this half billion pounds worth of stock just sitting idle.

 

[L401CJF]

Four half years ago the 777's were ordered presumably as DOO so they've had plenty of time to get a resolution which i thought was settled that a 2nd person would be on board. So whats the issue now - this half billion pounds worth of stock just sitting idle.

I believe they said they'd keep the guards but as onboard hosts stripped of their safety critical roles. Then last I heard they were talking about driver open, guard dispatch. No idea where they're up to.

 

[urbophile]

RTT is now showing a Monday - Friday training run for next week (w/c 5/7/21).

5S06 1532 Sandhills - Southport
5U06 1622 Southport - Sandhills

Links below:

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:S01682/2021-07-05/detailed

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:S01684/2021-07-05/detailed

Any runs south of Sandhills/Central?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

So whats the issue now - this half billion pounds worth of stock just sitting idle.

Isn't the immediate issue that the new trains haven't yet done enough miles to be accepted into service, the delay being due to the pandemic? Perhaps someone with the facts at their fingertips could confirm or put me right.

Having said which, if I were a union negotiator, I'd be looking to spin out the discussions until my members had the maximum leverage - and that point, it seems to me, would be when the new fleet was ready for service.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Article confirming daylight running to commence

https://lbndaily.co.uk/daytime-testing-begins-new-merseyrail-trains/

Although this comment sums things up

However, Liverpool City Region Combined Authority (CA) which bought the 52 trains for the rail network is remaining tight-lipped on when they will come into full service and start carrying passengers on the Northern and Wirral lines.

 

[Skie]

Isn't the immediate issue that the new trains haven't yet done enough miles to be accepted into service, the delay being due to the pandemic? Perhaps someone with the facts at their fingertips could confirm or put me right.

Having said which, if I were a union negotiator, I'd be looking to spin out the discussions until my members had the maximum leverage - and that point, it seems to me, would be when the new fleet was ready for service.

Yes. Right now the blocker is no accepted units. That will change fairly quickly as the mileage accumulation runs bed in and the first few units that have to do the longest runs pass and are handed over. It's also the reason why there is now renewed talk between the involved parties.

 

[TheSel]

777010 on today's runs.

Image (mine) below shows 777010 working 5U06 (1622 Southport to Sandhills) - passing 2S29 (1536 Hunts Cross to Southport) with 507024 trailing - just north of Ainsdale Station. Taken from the overbridge at Ainsdale Station.

 

[Meerkat]

Am I the only one who thinks the old trains look much nicer, and the new ones look untidy and awkward (externally)?

 

[Jamesrob637]

Am I the only one who thinks the old trains look much nicer, and the new ones look untidy and awkward (externally)?

Well, by the time you actually ride a 777, they'll be as old as the current fleet is now!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The most obvious thing to me is that they are much higher than the PEPs. I guess they will only just fit in Moorfields, as the PEPs are pretty close to the ceiling there!

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Am I the only one who thinks the old trains look much nicer, and the new ones look untidy and awkward (externally)?

They look better than 717's with the evac door.

 

[Skie]

Am I the only one who thinks the old trains look much nicer, and the new ones look untidy and awkward (externally)?

No, plenty of other people are also wrong.

 

[Ribbleman]

No, plenty of other people are also wrong.

I think that paint schemes can make a great deal of difference to the overall external impression. I think that there is rather too much black on the 777 cab fronts, but no doubt others will like it

 

[L401CJF]

What I keep wondering about is the practicality of a 8 car train evacuation in the narrow loop tunnels, where one end exit door of the train is obstructed (eg fire) meaning passengers have to exit via the cab on the other unit. With the emergency gangway door being on one side, when coupled together theyll be on opposite sides. Surely that makes things a bit awkward?

 

[Techniquest]

Am I the only one who thinks the old trains look much nicer, and the new ones look untidy and awkward (externally)?

I must say I went back to have another look after reading your post, and I'm not sure yet to be brutally honest. Once I've seen the new trains 'in the flesh' I'll make an informed decision. Right now, I'm biased too much by nostalgia for the 507s and 508s to make a fair judgement.

I think that paint schemes can make a great deal of difference to the overall external impression. I think that there is rather too much black on the 777 cab fronts, but no doubt others will like it

Agreed. The Hull Trains 802s just look wrong to me, in comparison to the GWR fleet, purely because of the lack of yellow. If the nose ends of the Hull Trains fleet was more contrasting with the main body, it would look better. Dark blue/navy with black doesn't work so well in this case, in my view.

Now if we were talking black and orange...

 

[Skie]

What I keep wondering about is the practicality of a 8 car train evacuation in the narrow loop tunnels, where one end exit door of the train is obstructed (eg fire) meaning passengers have to exit via the cab on the other unit. With the emergency gangway door being on one side, when coupled together theyll be on opposite sides. Surely that makes things a bit awkward?

There is a pretty smart mechanism above the coupler that, when units are coupled and the evac door is opened, slides out and helps fill the gap so you can relatively easily walk across between the doors.

 

[L401CJF]

There is a pretty smart mechanism above the coupler that, when units are coupled and the evac door is opened, slides out and helps fill the gap so you can relatively easily walk across between the doors.

I was wondering if something like that could be the case, thanks.

 

[507020]

Aye, was just listing the hard milestones required to actually get a unit into service, not the ones involving the politics of the squishy things up front (and back, hopefully).

Things are definitely moving on that front, though.

To be allowed into mixed traffic (daytime) testing, units must have 250 fault free miles, 777010 is currently the only unit that qualifies for this, but presumably because it’s the only one which has been out for mileage accumulation. 777008 is the next unit they are hoping will follow. These mileage accumulation runs can only take place to Southport where there is a proper terminus, so as not to block the main line and/or the only platform. Another reason to reopen the disused northbound platform at Ormskirk.

Merseyrail/Merseytravel wanting to go DOO, still undecided what roll the guard will have, should they be kept as far as I know.

The solution to this is blatantly obvious. Guards must open and close doors for the safe dispatch of the train from all platforms and for that Merseyrail must pay up. It is not the role of the driver to operate doors, that is the role of the guard and DOO is not safe when/where it is impossible to see one end of the train from the other, or any part of the train from the front cab, even with CCTV. The 319/769s had guards panels fitted after 30 years of DOO on Thameslink, so things seem to be moving more in the right direction.

Yes. Right now the blocker is no accepted units. That will change fairly quickly as the mileage accumulation runs bed in and the first few units that have to do the longest runs pass and are handed over. It's also the reason why there is now renewed talk between the involved parties.

Another issue is that with most of the 777s stored at Warrington, units that have completed mileage accumulation and are accepted will have to either enter service, or be swapped with the units stored at Warrington in order for those units to begin mileage accumulation. If Merseyrail continues to refuse to begin driver and guard training because they won’t let guards do their jobs and would prefer to endanger the lives of passengers, this will necessitate additional movements of 777s between Kirkdale and Warrington and keep more 507/508s in traffic longer. It seems like it could be quite costly if they don’t come to an agreement with the unions soon enough. Keeping guards is the simplest way to achieve this, which only makes the union’s position stronger.

The most obvious thing to me is that they are much higher than the PEPs. I guess they will only just fit in Moorfields, as the PEPs are pretty close to the ceiling there!

David Powell has stated that the body profile of the 777s (and numerous other factors including car length, wheel base and wheel diameter) is specifically tailored to the dimensions of the most restrictive single bore tunnel section. The PEP of course was a generic design that came from the Southern region, with the design absolutely unrelated to the design of the loop and link tunnels or any other part of Merseyrail for that matter, just being of a roughly similar layout to the 502s and 503s they replaced.

I think that paint schemes can make a great deal of difference to the overall external impression. I think that there is rather too much black on the 777 cab fronts, but no doubt others will like it

Interestingly the Stadler T&W units have yellow fronts and more black on the body sides, so they could easily be painted yellow. They haven’t even put any branding or the word Merseyrail anywhere on them yet. Is that due to the lack of unit acceptance as they are not yet Merseyrail units?

There is a pretty smart mechanism above the coupler that, when units are coupled and the evac door is opened, slides out and helps fill the gap so you can relatively easily walk across between the doors.

I am yet to see a picture of this mechanism and would very much like to.

777010 on today's runs.

Image (mine) below shows 777010 working 5U06 (1622 Southport to Sandhills) - passing 2S29 (1536 Hunts Cross to Southport) with 507024 trailing - just north of Ainsdale Station. Taken from the overbridge at Ainsdale Station.

View attachment 99271

This is a very good picture. There is another footbridge slightly further down the line in somewhere to be found in Ainsdale. I would like to get a picture from there.

 

[Skie]

I am yet to see a picture of this mechanism and would very much like to.

Soon (it was demonstrated recently to Geoff Marshall and a few others)

 

[TheSel]

This is a very good picture. There is another footbridge slightly further down the line in somewhere to be found in Ainsdale. I would like to get a picture from there.

Thank You!

Indeed, there are TWO further bridges in Ainsdale from which photography is easy (i.e. no steps, no poles etc required). A couple of hundred yards south of the station is Kenliworth Road, and a hundred or so yards further is a footbridge most easily accessible from Easedale Drive. I have shots of 507/508s from both, but they're not really in scope for this thread.

 

[hacman]

Am I the only one who thinks the old trains look much nicer, and the new ones look untidy and awkward (externally)?

I think a big part of this is that these are quite a departure from anything we've really seen on UK rails before, and the old units are of a style used for everything from PEP to Sprinters, so are very much the epitome of what a British train looks like.

 

[AntoniC]

I am looking forward to the wifi on my daily commute from Southport to Moorfields (and back of course).

 

[Skie]

I am looking forward to the wifi on my daily commute from Southport to Moorfields (and back of course).

Will certainly be handy down in the tunnels!

 

[py_megapixel]

Re. the experience of the front end - if I had to assign emotions to them, I'd say the 777 looks angry especially with the red tail lights on, while the 507 looks indignant or offended!

 

[RossMcCall]

777010 on today's runs.

Image (mine) below shows 777010 working 5U06 (1622 Southport to Sandhills) - passing 2S29 (1536 Hunts Cross to Southport) with 507024 trailing - just north of Ainsdale Station. Taken from the overbridge at Ainsdale Station.

View attachment 99271

Great pic, got a similar shot at Hightown

 

[Meerkat]

I think it’s the basically minimalist front but with the fiddly untidy lights. If they were flush it would be better.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The lack of "M" branding is interesting. I half-wonder if they are planning to rebrand the network once they are fully rolled out? The current Merseyrail brand and logo is after all about 25 years old.