Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

[507021]

The issue is that to Merseyrail the TOC, there is effectively no benefit to introducing a new fleet

• The 777s have greater capacity, more passengers equals more money.
• The 777s have better access for wheelchair users, which will also reduce dwell times.
• The 777s are more energy efficient, reducing running costs.
• The 777s won't require spare parts to be specially made, as is now the case with the 507s and 508s.
• The 777s are dual voltage capable and can be fitted with batteries, enabling cheap network expansion. A greater service area opens up the network to more passengers, and in turn, additional revenue.

There's some there.

 

[InOban]

Many Metro lines in Japan run with a guard even ones that now have platform edge doors in some cases.

What are the roles of these guards? And I assume that these are much longer trains.

BTW I'm all in favour of a second person, ensuring the safety and security of the passengers on board, and for revenue protection.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The issue is that to Merseyrail the TOC, there is effectively no benefit to introducing a new fleet, other than that it’s not physically possible for the existing fleet to operate services indefinitely without disintegrating due to age, which would leave it with no income at all!

Whether that includes the subsidy or not, why is Merseyrail subsidised when it’s profits exceed the value of the subsidy by nearly £100m? Or is this gross income before expenses e.g. leasing or staff wages are deducted? If this is its profit margin then £75m a year from Merseyrail is being haemorrhaged to the Dutch state!

What are the leasing costs of the 507s and 508s to Angel and what will Merseytravel charge them to lease the 777s? Merseytravel is just a consortium of Merseyside councils at this point.

TOC lost 2m last year as operating costs were 152m.

 

[507020]

As a concession Merseyrail will not become fully part of the GBR empire but will keep some Merseytravel oversight which I am sure they will want to include branding

It will become part of the GBR empire but retain current levels of devolution. I would hope that all rail transport in Great Britain would become part of Great British Railways, including systems such as the Metrolink, as it is still a railway albeit a light one.

Many Metro lines in Japan run with a guard even ones that now have platform edge doors in some cases.

I’m glad to hear that. When has anyone ever gone wrong following Japan’s example?

• The 777s have greater capacity, more passengers equals more money.
• The 777s have better access for wheelchair users, which will also reduce dwell times.
• The 777s are more energy efficient, reducing running costs.
• The 777s won't require spare parts to be specially made, as is now the case with the 507s and 508s.
• The 777s are dual voltage capable and can be fitted with batteries, enabling cheap network expansion. A greater service area opens up the network to more passengers, and in turn, additional revenue.

There's some there.

I am aware of all of these as benefits of introducing the 777 fleet, but from the moment of first introduction, these are not benefits to the Merseyrail TOC.

Capacity is not a constraint currently as demand has not fully recovered from the start of the pandemic. While better access for wheelchairs (also bikes and prams) is to be praised all round, this limits the ability of Merseyrail station staff to assist passengers, which is detrimental to the TOC’s employees. Electric railway power consumption is the domain of Network Rail and the 777s actually use more power due to their higher rate of acceleration, but this is advantageous operationally. Stadler is already responsible for the maintenance of the 507/508 fleet, not Merseyrail, so it is them who have to source custom parts. Of course the parts support for a brand new fleet from a high quality manufacturer will be excellent, but can it be guaranteed that the same can be said in 40 years time? And whilst I would argue that network expansion is the most important improvement that the 777s will allow, for at least the first few years of operation, the 777s will act as a simple replacement for the 507/508s on existing service patterns. Such expansion is several years in the future, long after the demise of the current TOC and it’s 25 year concession.

At the point of introduction, the Merseyrail company itself will see little to no benefit from the 777s. Most of the initial benefits are to other parties, including Stadler, Merseytravel and Network Rail, not to mention the passenger. In the longer term, there will be benefits to the operator, which by that time will not be Merseyrail as it is now.

 

[XAM2175]

At the point of introduction, the Merseyrail company itself will see little to no benefit from the 777s. Most of the initial benefits are to other parties, including Stadler, Merseytravel and Network Rail, not to mention the passenger. In the longer term, there will be benefits to the operator, which by that time will not be Merseyrail as it is now.

... why does this even matter?

 

[yorkie]

Just a gentle reminder this is a Traction & Rolling Stock thread to discuss Merseyrail Class 777s

The forum has plenty of spare capacity for threads to discuss any other topic

Thanks

 

[507021]

I am aware of all of these as benefits of introducing the 777 fleet, but from the moment of first introduction, these are not benefits to the Merseyrail TOC.

I'd say that lower running costs from operating more efficient trains will benefit the Merseyrail TOC...

Capacity is not a constraint currently as demand has not fully recovered from the start of the pandemic.

I expect demand will have increased by the time the 777s start to enter squadron service. The current situation won't last forever.

At the point of introduction, the Merseyrail company itself will see little to no benefit from the 777s. Most of the initial benefits are to other parties, including Stadler, Merseytravel and Network Rail, not to mention the passenger. In the longer term, there will be benefits to the operator, which by that time will not be Merseyrail as it is now.

Merseyrail is currently enjoying the use of a brand new traction maintenance depot at Kirkdale. The TOC will also have the use of a brand new fleet of trains which will be faster, more reliable and will be maintained by the manufacturer who built them. If they're not initial benefits, then I don't know what are.

 

[jamesst]

I'd say that lower running costs from operating more efficient trains will benefit the Merseyrail TOC...



I expect demand will have increased by the time the 777s start to enter squadron service. The current situation won't last forever.



Merseyrail is currently enjoying the use of a brand new traction maintenance depot at Kirkdale. The TOC will also have the use of a brand new fleet of trains which will be faster, more reliable and will be maintained by the manufacturer who built them. If they're not initial benefits, then I don't know what are.

To be fair it's somewhat stretching it to call Kirkdale a new depot! A stupidly small maintenance shed for the 777s, a like for like replacement of the wash and overall a reduction in the number of roads available at the depot.

 

[507021]

To be fair it's somewhat stretching it to call Kirkdale a new depot! A stupidly small maintenance shed for the 777s, a like for like replacement of the wash and overall a reduction in the number of roads available at the depot.

It's been rebuilt, refreshed, whatever you want to call it.

The point I'm trying to make is I really cannot understand the logic of finding negative things to say about a fleet of trains which hasn't even entered service yet.

 

[frodshamfella]

Here here, let's look forward to new trains at last.

 

[adrock1976]

Will the 777s for the northern side of the Mersey be specially dedicated to the depot at Kirkdale, with those that run south of the Mersey on the Wirral be specially dedicated to the depot at Birkenhead?

 

[urbophile]

Will the 777s for the northern side of the Mersey be specially dedicated to the depot at Kirkdale, with those that run south of the Mersey on the Wirral be specially dedicated to the depot at Birkenhead?

you mean 'eastern' and 'west' respectively.

 

[Meerkat]

you mean 'eastern' and 'west' respectively.

pretty sure north and south of the river would be much clearer to the majority of people!

 

[urbophile]

pretty sure north and south of the river would be much clearer to the majority of people!

Look at a map!

 

[Ribbleman]

Will the 777s for the northern side of the Mersey be specially dedicated to the depot at Kirkdale, with those that run south of the Mersey on the Wirral be specially dedicated to the depot at Birkenhead?

There is no reason to split the fleet between the Northern and Wirral lines. Class 507 and 508 units travel between the two lines every day as empty stock workings and Kirkdale will be the main base for the whole new fleet. Should it eventually be decided to equip some 777 sets with batteries to permit operation beyond the current limits, then some form of segregation may be desirable, depending upon which services are affected. For example, if battery operation beyond Ormskirk to Preston came about, but this was the only line where battery operation was introduced, you would not normally want your battery equipped sets to be allocated to Wirral Line services.

 

[adrock1976]

you mean 'eastern' and 'west' respectively.

pretty sure north and south of the river would be much clearer to the majority of people!

Look at a map!

Does Merseyrail not have a "Northern Line" group of services? If so, that implies that it runs on the northern side of the Mersey.

Also, the Mersey passes through the Stockport area which when I was at primary school many years ago, Stockport is east of Liverpool. Also, before the Metropolitan Counties came into being in 1974, north of the Mersey was Lancashire, and south of the Mersey was Cheshire.

 

[507021]

Does Merseyrail not have a "Northern Line" group of services? If so, that implies that it runs on the northern side of the Mersey.

Also, the Mersey passes through the Stockport area which when I was at primary school many years ago, Stockport is east of Liverpool. Also, before the Metropolitan Counties came into being in 1974, north of the Mersey was Lancashire, and south of the Mersey was Cheshire.

It is called the Northern Line, but it's not a particularly well-named line.

Squirrel Line would be more appropriate.

 

[507020]

Does Merseyrail not have a "Northern Line" group of services? If so, that implies that it runs on the northern side of the Mersey.

Also, the Mersey passes through the Stockport area which when I was at primary school many years ago, Stockport is east of Liverpool. Also, before the Metropolitan Counties came into being in 1974, north of the Mersey was Lancashire, and south of the Mersey was Cheshire.

I was about to say the “Lancashire” and “Cheshire” sides of the Mersey is clearer. This Mersey border continued through the Non-Metropolitan Unitary Authority of Warrington to the Metropolitan Borough of Stockport, splitting both of them between Lancashire and Cheshire, as well as some other areas.

There is no reason to split the fleet between the Northern and Wirral lines. Class 507 and 508 units travel between the two lines every day as empty stock workings and Kirkdale will be the main base for the whole new fleet. Should it eventually be decided to equip some 777 sets with batteries to permit operation beyond the current limits, then some form of segregation may be desirable, depending upon which services are affected. For example, if battery operation beyond Ormskirk to Preston came about, but this was the only line where battery operation was introduced, you would not normally want your battery equipped sets to be allocated to Wirral Line services.

If certain sets are ever fitted with batteries, 25kV equipment or other non-standard additions, this will parallel the Manchester Metrolink, who’s “standard” fleet of M5000s was built in many batches at different times, to run on a number of different lines, built or converted to Metrolink operation at different times over a now almost 30 year period, each requiring different equipment to be fitted which was standard at that time. Therefore not all trams can run on all lines.

These non-standard 777s may be designated as 777/1 or 777/2 etc to differentiate them. If battery operation is introduced on both Ormskirk - Preston and Kirkby - Skelmersdale sections as well as Ellesmere Port - Helsby, battery sets will still be interchangeable between Northern and Wirral lines. I believe all 777s will be allocated to Kirkdale, with some stabling overnight and light maintenance taking place at Birkenhead North. The TfW 230s will be allocated to and maintained at Birkenhead North once the 508s have gone.

It is called the Northern Line, but it's not a particularly well-named line.

Squirrel Line would be more appropriate.

The Northern Line services were designated as such in 1971, before the opening of the Link tunnel or the Hunts Cross electrification, when all Northern Line services ran North from Liverpool out of the original Liverpool Exchange terminus, including the Diesel through service to Wigan and Manchester via Kirkby. The Preston line had already been severed at Ormskirk.

This naming remained even after the new through service began from Kirkby to Garston, on the South side of Liverpool. When the separate Gateacre service ran out of the Liverpool Central high level terminus, it may have made more sense for this to be a separate Southern Line. The other Northern Line on the London Underground began life as the City and South London Railway, so it seems no one is able to decide successfully on a geographically accurate compass point designation.

 

[Meerkat]

Look at a map!

It’s pretty common for the banks of a river which flows generally east west to be the north and south banks, rather than the pedantic geographic reality.
Your method would get pretty confusing in London - you could even be on the East and West at the same time!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It’s pretty common for the banks of a river which flows generally east west to be the north and south banks, rather than the pedantic geographic reality.
Your method would get pretty confusing in London - you could even be on the East and West at the same time!

It's also worth remembering that the island of Great Britain is not in fact neatly aligned with the cardinal directions, despite being depicted that way on maps. Hence the fact that Edinburgh is further West than Manchester, something that seems counter intuitive.

 

[507020]

It's also worth remembering that the island of Great Britain is not in fact neatly aligned with the cardinal directions, despite being depicted that way on maps. Hence the fact that Edinburgh is further West than Manchester, something that seems counter intuitive.

Try aligning a map with the Cheshire Lines Committee line from Liverpool to Manchester taken as true horizontal and you get a completely different view on things.

 

[Ianno87]

GLovesTrains (well worth a Like and Subscribe) has done a fantastic video looking at the 777s at Kirkdale depot

 

[507021]

GLovesTrains (well worth a Like and Subscribe) has done a fantastic video looking at the 777s at Kirkdale depot

Another vote for GLovesTrains here too, I need to start catching up on her videos though!

 

[Ianno87]

Aaaaaanddd Geoff Marshall's turn:

 

[507 001]

The lack of "M" branding is interesting. I half-wonder if they are planning to rebrand the network once they are fully rolled out? The current Merseyrail brand and logo is after all about 25 years old.

It would be monumentally stupid if they do.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would be monumentally stupid if they do.

Look out for the Comic Sans (OK, the PTE's present font isn't *quite* that but it's not far off!)

 

[507 001]

If certain sets are ever fitted with batteries, 25kV equipment or other non-standard additions, this will parallel the Manchester Metrolink, who’s “standard” fleet of M5000s was built in many batches at different times, to run on a number of different lines, built or converted to Metrolink operation at different times over a now almost 30 year period, each requiring different equipment to be fitted which was standard at that time. Therefore not all trams can run on all lines.

That’s not 100% accurate. Yes there are differences between the different batches of M5000, but these do not dictate where that particular unit can run, they’re just lessons learnt as the production run continued. The only thing that prevents some of the newer sets running up to Altrincham is that they’re not fitted with VRS/ATS signalling equipment which was intended to be phased out but is now looking extremely unlikely.

 

[GodAtum]

So there are separate spaces for wheelchair, buggies and cycles? That's gonna end in arguments.

And those route displays are positioned stupidly as you cannot see them while sitting down, unlike Thameslink.

 

[PR1Berske]

It would be monumentally stupid if they do.

We may yet see a compromise between the "M" branding and "GBR" branding, if it's accurate that the latter will expect a single brand across all networks, even (broadly) self-contained ones as here.

 

[507020]

We may yet see a compromise between the "M" branding and "GBR" branding, if it's accurate that the latter will expect a single brand across all networks, even (broadly) self-contained ones as here.

We should remember that the original Class 507 branding which (although it predated the “M” symbol) included the earlier “Merseyside Transport” symbol prevalent on buses at the time, the word Merseyrail and the double arrow, so it can be done. There is no reason why you can’t display the “M” and “GBR” or the double arrow on the same train.