Merseyrail Class 777 introduction updates

[Jamesrob637]

The lack of "M" branding is interesting. I half-wonder if they are planning to rebrand the network once they are fully rolled out? The current Merseyrail brand and logo is after all about 25 years old.

25 years ago was privatisation so that figures. Probably no need to change what's already good.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The solution to this is blatantly obvious. Guards must open and close doors for the safe dispatch of the train from all platforms and for that Merseyrail must pay up. It is not the role of the driver to operate doors, that is the role of the guard and DOO is not safe when/where it is impossible to see one end of the train from the other, or any part of the train from the front cab, even with CCTV. The 319/769s had guards panels fitted after 30 years of DOO on Thameslink, so things seem to be moving more in the right direction.

Merseyrail had already agreed to keep a 2nd person on the train to undertake despatch role so what is the issue? Has someone got them to renege on this agreement as it has considerable repercussions across the English network or did no one tell Stadler that door controls were needed that weren't operated from the cab in use?

 

[507020]

The lack of "M" branding is interesting. I half-wonder if they are planning to rebrand the network once they are fully rolled out? The current Merseyrail brand and logo is after all about 25 years old.

I doubt it is a priority of the present Serco/Abellio Merseyrail company to rebrand itself. In 2028 at the end of the 25 year concession, the running of the services, by then entirely with 777s, will either be re-tendered or taken back in house by Great British Railways. This new operation is much more likely to want to rebrand the network, as is Great British Railways.

 

[urbophile]

The lack of "M" branding is interesting. I half-wonder if they are planning to rebrand the network once they are fully rolled out? The current Merseyrail brand and logo is after all about 25 years old.

the TfL roundel is much older than that. The point of a recognisable logo is that it is recognisable and not something that changes according to whim.

 

[Journeyman]

the TfL roundel is much older than that. The point of a recognisable logo is that it is recognisable and not something that changes according to whim.

Indeed it is, it's one of the oldest pieces of corporate branding you'll find anywhere. The original solid red circle version is well over 100 years old, probably getting on for 120.

TfL's adoption of a range of different coloured roundels for different modes of transport in the early 2000s shows how well recognised and effective the roundel is - it can be flexible without diluting its simplicity and effectiveness.

 

[Bletchleyite]

25 years ago was privatisation so that figures. Probably no need to change what's already good.

It slightly predates privatisation so perhaps nearer 30 years. In terms of livery the first one was early 90s, though the "upside down W" for the PTE came a bit before that. The older logo was the "loop line" graphic on BR blue and grey.

I am not saying they need to change it, but I wonder if they might choose to.

It is not a national franchise any more so is very unlikely to go back under GBR.

I doubt it is a priority of the present Serco/Abellio Merseyrail company to rebrand itself. In 2028 at the end of the 25 year concession, the running of the services, by then entirely with 777s, will either be re-tendered or taken back in house by Great British Railways. This new operation is much more likely to want to rebrand the network, as is Great British Railways.

It is Merseytravel's branding, not the TOC's. The TOC does not have its own public facing branding as such, and has not really had since Regional Railways branding was removed, though there was the odd bit of "letterhead branding" out there in the 90s and 2000s plus some Arriva stickers.

 

[jamesst]

Merseyrail had already agreed to keep a 2nd person on the train to undertake despatch role so what is the issue? Has someone got them to renege on this agreement as it has considerable repercussions across the English network or did no one tell Stadler that door controls were needed that weren't operated from the cab in use?

They may of 'agreed' but nothing was ever officially signed. Then covid happened...

 

[PR1Berske]

I'm not sure anybody wants these brand new trains delayed yet further because of the usual ups, downs and roundabouts about DOO.

 

[Meerkat]

They may of 'agreed' but nothing was ever officially signed. Then covid happened...

And now presumably Merseyrail is dependent on DfT ‘generosity’. Considering the hoops TfL had to jump through for their money I’m guessing Merseyrail signing up to guards operating the doors is somewhat tricky.

 

[jamesst]

And now presumably Merseyrail is dependent on DfT ‘generosity’. Considering the hoops TfL had to jump through for their money I’m guessing Merseyrail signing up to guards operating the doors is somewhat tricky.

Merseyrail are actually the only toc not to receive one penny from the DfT, funding has mainly been through Serco/Abellio.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Merseyrail are actually the only toc not to receive one penny from the DfT, funding has mainly been through Serco/Abellio.

They are in that sense more like Metrolink. They did however (eventually) receive COVID bailouts, as Metrolink did, and this might give DafT a feeling of control.

Funding is via Merseytravel direct to the "TOC".

 

[razor89]

They are in that sense more like Metrolink. They did however (eventually) receive COVID bailouts, as Metrolink did, and this might give DafT a feeling of control.

Funding is via Merseytravel direct to the "TOC".

Have you got a source for this? As far as I was aware they still haven't received any financial assistance, at least not in the form of an EMA/ ERMA.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Have you got a source for this? As far as I was aware they still haven't received any financial assistance, at least not in the form of an EMA/ ERMA.

From a very quick search there were certainly talks over it, unless Merseytravel pulled out?

Bailout expected for UK city transport networks crippled by Covid-19

Manchester, Liverpool and London in talks to secure emergency government funding

www.theguardian.com

The government could bail out rail and tram networks in cities such as London and Manchester as soon as this week, as public transport revenues almost entirely disappear during the coronavirus lockdown.

Transport has been among the hardest-hit industries during the pandemic, with all but essential journeys banned and people across the UK urged to work from home where possible.

 

[jamesst]

From a very quick search there were certainly talks over it, unless Merseytravel pulled out?

Bailout expected for UK city transport networks crippled by Covid-19

Manchester, Liverpool and London in talks to secure emergency government funding

www.theguardian.com

There was never any bailout for Merseyrail, one wasn't offered and any talks there may of been came to nothing.

 

[py_megapixel]

From a very quick search there were certainly talks over it, unless Merseytravel pulled out?

Bailout expected for UK city transport networks crippled by Covid-19

Manchester, Liverpool and London in talks to secure emergency government funding

www.theguardian.com

There's no actual mention of Liverpool in the article - that's just a stock image of a Merseyrail train.

 

[Meerkat]

So how are Merseyrail funding the big deficit they must be facing?!

 

[507020]

So how are Merseyrail funding the big deficit they must be facing?!

Shortly there will be a huge influx of cash once the 507s and 508s are sent for scrap, money will no longer be leached out of the system by Angel Trains never to be seen again. When Class 777 leasing fees start going to the public body Merseytravel, they can initially use it for covid recovery, before starting to spend it more freely on improvements, but I’m certain the 777s will not enter service without guards. The unions won’t budge on that and Merseytravel are desperate for their new source of income to start and bring a new image with it. Was Merseyrail not profitable for several years before the virus came along?

 

[Meerkat]

Shortly there will be a huge influx of cash once the 507s and 508s are sent for scrap, money will no longer be leached out of the system by Angel Trains never to be seen again. When Class 777 leasing fees start going to the public body Merseytravel, they can initially use it for covid recovery, before starting to spend it more freely on improvements, but I’m certain the 777s will not enter service without guards. The unions won’t budge on that and Merseytravel are desperate for their new source of income to start and bring a new image with it. Was Merseyrail not profitable for several years before the virus came along?

Wow, that’s rather vitriolic. Merseyrail won’t get any cash for scrapping the old trains as they are owned by Angel. Most of the leasing fees was, and will be, going to pay for the borrowing that paid/pays for the trains - AIUI Liverpool City Region borrowed the money from the government to fund the trains.
AIUI Merseyrail train services were some of the most highly subsidised in the country!

 

[InOban]

Are there any modernised city metro system anywhere still else using guards in their traditional role?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Shortly there will be a huge influx of cash once the 507s and 508s are sent for scrap, money will no longer be leached out of the system by Angel Trains never to be seen again. When Class 777 leasing fees start going to the public body Merseytravel, they can initially use it for covid recovery, before starting to spend it more freely on improvements, but I’m certain the 777s will not enter service without guards. The unions won’t budge on that and Merseytravel are desperate for their new source of income to start and bring a new image with it. Was Merseyrail not profitable for several years before the virus came along?

The TOC might have been profitable, but it has never operated without considerable subsidy, typically second behind Island Line for per passenger mile subsidy.

 

[Grumpy Git]

.................. but it has never operated without considerable subsidy, .............................

......... and the city is much better of for this subsidy and the benefit the Merseyrail system brings, (especially when I get my over 60 pass next year).

 

[L401CJF]

Straying a bit off topic now but is the large subsidy mainly Merseytravels concession payments from ENCTS, Trio, Saveaway payments etc?

 

[PR1Berske]

Are there any modernised city metro system anywhere still else using guards in their traditional role?

The short answer is "not many"

 

[Bletchleyite]

Straying a bit off topic now but is the large subsidy mainly Merseytravels concession payments from ENCTS, Trio, Saveaway payments etc?

That isn't really subsidy, it is just farebox(ish).

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Wow, that’s rather vitriolic. Merseyrail won’t get any cash for scrapping the old trains as they are owned by Angel. Most of the leasing fees was, and will be, going to pay for the borrowing that paid/pays for the trains - AIUI Liverpool City Region borrowed the money from the government to fund the trains.
AIUI Merseyrail train services were some of the most highly subsidised in the country!

MerseyTravel is financing the rolling stock with a European Invest Bank Loan of 190m and balance from Public Loans Works Board so only has to cover interest rate charges currently which will be a lot less than leasing charges.

The operating grant to Merseytravel was 97M in 2019/20 of which £53m was given to rail. MERSEYRAIL ELECTRICS 2002 LIMITED results for the 2020 year show operating income of £150m but can't work out if that includes the subsidy or is just farebox revenue. I suspect it does as revenue previous year was 173m so quite heavily subsidised for sure which is funded through local council tax levies.

 

[Energy]

MerseyTravel is financing the rolling stock with a European Invest Bank Loan of 190m and balance from Public Loans Works Board so only has to cover interest rate charges currently which will be a lot less than leasing charges.

Surely it has to pay of those loans at some point?

 

[Meerkat]

I suspect it does as revenue previous year was 173m so quite heavily subsidised for sure which is funded through local council tax levies.

It’s mainly funded by central government grant isnt it?

 

[507020]

Wow, that’s rather vitriolic. Merseyrail won’t get any cash for scrapping the old trains as they are owned by Angel. Most of the leasing fees was, and will be, going to pay for the borrowing that paid/pays for the trains - AIUI Liverpool City Region borrowed the money from the government to fund the trains.
AIUI Merseyrail train services were some of the most highly subsidised in the country!

The issue is that to Merseyrail the TOC, there is effectively no benefit to introducing a new fleet, other than that it’s not physically possible for the existing fleet to operate services indefinitely without disintegrating due to age, which would leave it with no income at all!

The operating grant to Merseytravel was 97M in 2019/20 of which £53m was given to rail. MERSEYRAIL ELECTRICS 2002 LIMITED results for the 2020 year show operating income of £150m but can't work out if that includes the subsidy or is just farebox revenue. I suspect it does as revenue previous year was 173m so quite heavily subsidised for sure which is funded through local council tax levies.

Whether that includes the subsidy or not, why is Merseyrail subsidised when it’s profits exceed the value of the subsidy by nearly £100m? Or is this gross income before expenses e.g. leasing or staff wages are deducted? If this is its profit margin then £75m a year from Merseyrail is being haemorrhaged to the Dutch state!

What are the leasing costs of the 507s and 508s to Angel and what will Merseytravel charge them to lease the 777s? Merseytravel is just a consortium of Merseyside councils at this point.

 

[Mollman]

I doubt it is a priority of the present Serco/Abellio Merseyrail company to rebrand itself. In 2028 at the end of the 25 year concession, the running of the services, by then entirely with 777s, will either be re-tendered or taken back in house by Great British Railways. This new operation is much more likely to want to rebrand the network, as is Great British Railways.

As a concession Merseyrail will not become fully part of the GBR empire but will keep some Merseytravel oversight which I am sure they will want to include branding

 

[Geeves]

Many Metro lines in Japan run with a guard even ones that now have platform edge doors in some cases.