Why there are less cycle space on British trains compare to European ones?

[jfowkes]

The class 745 has excellent bike spaces in my opinion.

• 6 spaces, three per side. Relative to size of train, that's a good amount for the UK.
• Simple but effective securing method (a large hook on a retracting seatbelt like strap)
• Wide enough for even the longest bike
• Door clearly signed and visible from a distance, or as the train is passing you on a platform

I guess the 755 must have similar but I haven't been on one.

I hate the bike spaces on the class 222. Often filled with rubbish, difficult to manoeuvre in/out of, badly signed from the outside, unclear which are in use (always the rear, but newcomers won't know that). And I once had my bike locked in there by a staff member and the train got held up while they ran down the train to unlock the door.

 

[Intercitybruce]

I remember on the old slam door trains on the oxted line back when it was connex, use to have a carriage for bicycles only and next door was a office for the conductor.

Not sure if anyone else remembers these, I’ve tried to find a photo online but I can’t find nothing, to be fair it is going back some years now.

 

[Journeyman]

I'd think theft of expensive bicycles is rather higher risk than a bag of dirty clothes.

A friend of mine did actually get a bag of dirty clothes stolen on a train once.

Progress they say ! and no buffet car, no hot food, less comfy seating, annoying announcements! airline seating, etc etc etc......

I wish people would stop slagging off airline seating. If I'm travelling alone, it's much better than staring at strangers.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Back in the day you just put your bike in the guards compartment - tons of room in there for loads of bikes!

Up to a point. Back in the day the 'brake' was often well loaded with parcels or, even better, mailbags locked in the caged area. So room and/or access could be an issue (and you had to pay for bikes in those days as well, which at least tended to suppress demand).

 

[The exile]

Up to a point. Back in the day the 'brake' was often well loaded with parcels or, even better, mailbags locked in the caged area. So room and/or access could be an issue (and you had to pay for bikes in those days as well, which at least tended to suppress demand).

Even when it was free and parcels traffic had disappeared I don’t ever remember my bike having another one for company. Frequent encounters with grumpy guards when I pointed out that the van they wanted me to put the bike in in the 8 car unit was going to be 1 and a half coach lengths off the platform where I got off. Presumably I wasn’t supposed to be in the van (with potential access to the handbrake) in a unit he couldn’t get to - the days of CAPS on the Readings

 

[ashkeba]

The class 745 has excellent bike spaces in my opinion.

• 6 spaces, three per side. Relative to size of train, that's a good amount for the UK.
• Simple but effective securing method (a large hook on a retracting seatbelt like strap)
• Wide enough for even the longest bike
• Door clearly signed and visible from a distance, or as the train is passing you on a platform

I guess the 755 must have similar but I haven't been on one.

755 are similar. 745/1 (Stansteds) have 18 bike spaces (3 areas) despite bikes being officially banned on that line still.

Class 700 also have nice wall strap bike spaces for off peak use. I bet the numbers standing with bikes in doorway areas on the electrostars around Cambridge has reduced a bit.

 

[24Grange]

A friend of mine did actually get a bag of dirty clothes stolen on a train once.


I wish people would stop slagging off airline seating. If I'm travelling alone, it's much better than staring at strangers.

Maybe personal preference, I'm quite tall ( 6ft 3 - don't know what that is in new money So I find them incredibly lacking in leg room, and the back of the seat ( and table) in front make me feel claustrophobic, coupled with usually no window to look out of ( or at best half a window)

 

[ashkeba]

I wonder why British ones are falling behind, which makes group cycle trips (especially long-distance ones) difficult and pushing them to cars, which causes more environmental problems.

The UK Dept of Transport seems to work in silos. Rail does not seem to coordinate with active travel or buses and often not even with motoring. Will GBR change this?

 

[zwk500]

Maybe personal preference, I'm quite tall ( 6ft 3 - don't know what that is in new money So I find them incredibly lacking in leg room, and the back of the seat ( and table) in front make me feel claustrophobic, coupled with usually no window to look out of ( or at best half a window)

6'3 is just under 1.9m, I'm 6'1 and find Airline seats vary from TOC to TOC from absolutely fine to about 3cm too short, forcing me to sit either continually forcing my back into the seat, or to sit with my knees across the adjacent seat.

The UK Dept of Transport seems to work in silos. Rail does not seem to coordinate with active travel or buses and often not even with motoring. Will GBR change this?

Well GBR is going to be directed by the DfT, and its remit is only the trains, so I wouldn't hold your breath. First/last mile has slowly been making inroads, but painfully slowly.

 

[Mikey C]

There certainly used to be more bike space on UK trains, as recently as the late 90s you could put bikes in the guard's van when slam-door stock ran the majority of ex-Southern Region services. No worries in those days about transporting your bike say from Southampton to Brockenhurst, there would be room and the guard would even let you stand in the van to attend your bike.

I think there is a cultural thing too. In my experience, much of Continental Europe, particularly the Netherlands-Germany-Switzerland-Austria area, has much more of a developed cycle culture. Can't comment on train space, as I've never put a bike on a train on the Continent, but off-road routes between city centres and in rural areas seem much more developed in that part of the Continent.

The argument about bike space being a problem as it reduces the number of seats will also apply on the Continent, so culture must surely come to play. And somehow in the 80s and 90s they managed to allow bikes onto the guard's van of packed CIGs and VEPs in the rush hour without problem!

Nowhere else in Europe, certainly not in those countries you mentioned, have anywhere near the numbers of commuters, travelling long distances to work in a single City that we have.

For better or worse, the rail network around London is designed around carrying ridiculous numbers of people a ridiculous distance to London where they work, hence having more seats for people to sit in is a better use of space than a guard's van for weekend cyclists.

 

[ashkeba]

For better or worse, the rail network around London is designed around carrying ridiculous numbers of people a ridiculous distance to London where they work, hence having more seats for people to sit in is a better use of space than a guard's van for weekend cyclists.

Multi function space like NMBS is needed.
Seats or standing during peak loadings, space for bikes and luggage off peak.

This still fails to serve weekday commuter cyclists but they are probably most able to afford the current alternatives of folding bikes, bike shares or leaving a clunker in the city.

 

[wobman]

Many TFW units are just 2 car units as an example and they have limited bike spaces due to that, I've seen 6 cyclists turn up and expect to take the bikes on a single 150. They don't reserve places and travel at busy times, if they jumped on early trains at quiet times they may have a chance.

Maybe the ScotRail 153 plan and the TFW trial of such units, could be a temp solution to the issue.

 

[allotments]

last week a small 2 car TFW service in North Wales coped well with 6 bikes parked neatly including mine which was folded

 

[miklcct]

This thread is a no brainer. Bikes aren't even allowed on some trains on the timetable, presumably to give standing space for passengers.

The Europeans must be running trains empty all the time that they can afford big bike spaces.

 

[Skie]

The 777s have a decent amount of space and floor markings, but the bum rests could encourage people to not give up the space when a cyclist gets on. Better than the existing stock though which has tip up seats in the bike space and definitely causes confrontation.

 

[ashkeba]

The Europeans must be running trains empty all the time that they can afford big bike spaces.

Except they're not. They're pretty full, but of passengers plus luggage plus bikes. Presumably their railway decision-makers count more than just seats or people and have more interest in getting cars off the roads.

 

[zwk500]

Except they're not. They're pretty full, but of passengers plus luggage plus bikes. Presumably their railway decision-makers count more than just seats or people and have more interest in getting cars off the roads.

And have an extra foot of width to play with!

 

[Jozhua]

The UK Dept of Transport seems to work in silos. Rail does not seem to coordinate with active travel or buses and often not even with motoring. Will GBR change this?

Probably not. You'd have a hard time convincing the DfT that modes shouldn't need to compete with each other. In their eyes, HS2 is probably competing with walking/cycling lol...

This thread is a no brainer. Bikes aren't even allowed on some trains on the timetable, presumably to give standing space for passengers.

The Europeans must be running trains empty all the time that they can afford big bike spaces.

Forgetting the fact that the alternative, cars, run on average 70% empty...

 

[Haywain]

I think there is a cultural thing too. In my experience, much of Continental Europe, particularly the Netherlands-Germany-Switzerland-Austria area, has much more of a developed cycle culture.

Pretty sure that culture plays the part in the game, with Europeans are more cycle friendly.

This is often given as both the reason for cycle facilities not being well used and for not providing good (if any) cycle facilities. In the same way as cyclists simultaneously ride on the pavements while blocking roads.

 

[al78]

Probably not. You'd have a hard time convincing the DfT that modes shouldn't need to compete with each other. In their eyes, HS2 is probably competing with walking/cycling lol...

Forgetting the fact that the alternative, cars, run on average 70% empty...

Well cars are not public transport, and it may be harder and less convenient to coordinate a car share with a complete stranger (car sharing works well with co-workers sommuting), but how many trains run 70+% empty outside of peak times?

 

[stonojnr]

The class 745 has excellent bike spaces in my opinion.

• 6 spaces, three per side. Relative to size of train, that's a good amount for the UK.
• Simple but effective securing method (a large hook on a retracting seatbelt like strap)
• Wide enough for even the longest bike
• Door clearly signed and visible from a distance, or as the train is passing you on a platform

I guess the 755 must have similar but I haven't been on one.

I hate the bike spaces on the class 222. Often filled with rubbish, difficult to manoeuvre in/out of, badly signed from the outside, unclear which are in use (always the rear, but newcomers won't know that). And I once had my bike locked in there by a staff member and the train got held up while they ran down the train to unlock the door.

whilst I think of all the solutions that the new rolling stock has provided, it looks the best, though I think most cyclists would be happier transporting their bikes with the kind of space the Scottish Rail 153 active travel coach arrangement provides.

Ive yet to be convinced theres enough room for 6 bikes on those trains, Ive only been on the 745s a couple of times and neither seemed the right time at the moment to go investigating.

bikes do take up more space than people realise and especially if you are carrying luggage, Harwich is a destination alot of touring cyclists use to/from Europe. plus the downside of that setup is the bike jenga you have to work out to get your bike out if you arent going to the same place all the other bike users are.

 

[Jozhua]

Well cars are not public transport, and it may be harder and less convenient to coordinate a car share with a complete stranger (car sharing works well with co-workers sommuting), but how many trains run 70+% empty outside of peak times?

Exactly, that's my point. Trains are still more efficient and have higher occupancy rates, improving car occupancy beyond 1.5 (or 20%) is almost impossible.

Peak hours are where the key capacity crunch is, so the fact occupancy rates can be flexible allows rail services to keep to time even during times of higher demand. Even if the quietest times dip below 30% occupancy, the average will still be significantly higher than what is achievable with the car, forgetting that even a 20% full train is more efficient than a 20% full car.

It's all semantics though to be honest, all to say providing bike space is completely possible. That said, cycle hire and good bike parking facilities are just as important for good integration.

 

[WesternBiker]

The argument about bike space being a problem as it reduces the number of seats will also apply on the Continent, so culture must surely come to play. And somehow in the 80s and 90s they managed to allow bikes onto the guard's van of packed CIGs and VEPs in the rush hour without problem!

Culture plays a big part: it would be inconceivable to design trains without lots of cycle storage space in the Netherlands.

That said, even in that most cycle-friendly of countries, in some circumstances you have to book; and pay; and not all trains can accommodate bicycles; and there are still restrictions during rush hour for non-folding bicycles. (See the NS website here.)

 

[stut]

Culture plays a big part: it would be inconceivable to design trains without lots of cycle storage space in the Netherlands.

That said, even in that most cycle-friendly of countries, in some circumstances you have to book; and pay; and not all trains can accommodate bicycles; and there are still restrictions during rush hour for non-folding bicycles. (See the NS website here.)

It's a bit different in the Netherlands, though - IME there's relatively little bicycle storage on trains, and the hours are quite restrictive. Instead, you have big, easy to use, secure cycle parks and a national, dirt cheap rail-cycle scheme.

Denmark is an interesting example to look at, though (as I'm sure I've mentioned many times). The local trains round Copenhagen have, in many cases, a full carriage dedicated to cycle storage, and peak time carriage is allowed (though there's one station you can't use, due to its cramped nature).

 

[gallafent]

I wish people would stop slagging off airline seating. If I'm travelling alone, it's much better than staring at strangers

Don't stare at them then. I imagine that they would also prefer this.

Seriously, instead, stare at your computer, or book, or whatever, which is on the table in front of you, and when the train is not too heavily loaded, you can even use the whole depth (two passengers' worth) of that table to allow your computer's screen to be at a comfortable angle, and you can actually stretch your legs to avoid cramp etc., … and the person that is sitting diagonally opposite you can do the same. When the loadings are heavier, you still get plenty of space to work / read, etc. … or just look out of the window. Or close your eyes.

The only airline seats on a UK train which have, in my experience, enough space to work, read, or even sit, comfortably, are in the Hitachi 80x series. It's one of their advantages! (I'm 1.85m tall, so not a giant … but most UK train airline seats are uncomfortably cramped, and the space on the table totally inadequate to use even a small computer).

 

[Journeyman]

Don't stare at them then. I imagine that they would also prefer this.

Seriously, instead, stare at your computer, or book, or whatever, which is on the table in front of you, and when the train is not too heavily loaded, you can even use the whole depth (two passengers' worth) of that table to allow your computer's screen to be at a comfortable angle, and you can actually stretch your legs to avoid cramp etc., … and the person that is sitting diagonally opposite you can do the same. When the loadings are heavier, you still get plenty of space to work / read, etc. … or just look out of the window. Or close your eyes.

The only airline seats on a UK train which have, in my experience, enough space to work, read, or even sit, comfortably, are in the Hitachi 80x series. It's one of their advantages! (I'm 1.85m tall, so not a giant … but most UK train airline seats are uncomfortably cramped, and the space on the table totally inadequate to use even a small computer).

Nope, that's far too simplistic and doesn't work for me. I want airline seating. I actively dislike table seating. There should be a balance of both.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Nope, that's far too simplistic and doesn't work for me. I want airline seating. I actively dislike table seating. There should be a balance of both.

The Class 158 layout concept is about as perfect as you can get. Roughly half and half with tables and airline seats, and with the tables getting the window plus both pillars recognising that a table does need a bit more room.

That said, the 80x aren't bad. I'm 6' 4" and comfortably* fit all seats.

* In terms of legroom only, obviously

 

[gallafent]

Nope, that's far too simplistic and doesn't work for me. I want airline seating. I actively dislike table seating. There should be a balance of both.

I'm not sure what I oversimplified excessively, but anyway …

I absolutely agree with this (there should be a balance), and on the vast majority of trains I have been on, more table seats are occupied first, to the extent that I end up in an airline seat, when I would have preferred a table! In an 80x this is not a disaster, since the airline seats are acceptable, but in most-to-all other UK rolling stock, it means I end up having a very uncomfortable journey, and might be prevented from working effectively.

I totally agree that a balance is what is needed! My experience of light-to-mid-loaded trains (that the table seats are “half full”, i.e. 2 of the 4 seats occupied, first, before all the airline seat bays are “half full”, i.e. 1 of the 2 occupied) suggests that in order to get closer to the balance that would match passenger preference, though, we need fewer airline, and more table, seats. As the train fills up, again, I would prefer to be in a 75% full table bay, than a 100% full airline bay … but yes, catering for both preferences equally, according to the ratio of passenger preference, so that each type of passenger is equally likely to be able to find the variety of seat they prefer, would clearly be a good idea. Research clearly required (and the second-order effect that there will be marginally fewer seats overall if the ratio moves in favour of tables, of course, would need to be accounted for!).

And, to bring things back to this thread, yes, I need a space to put my bike too. Ideally, but not necessarily, where I can see it from my seat. Chiltern's Turbostars do this well in my experience, with a big place to put them near the accessible toilet, which has a few seats with plenty of leg room scattered around in the same area. Doors-at-thirds stock tends to be able to take plenty of bikes in my experience in general, in that if the specific bike area is occupied, then you can just use one of the door bays. Clearly this works better when the platform is always on the same side of the train, and less well on other lines (Pembroke Dock, I'm looking at you! )

 

[jfowkes]

Chiltern's Turbostars do this well in my experience, with a big place to put them near the accessible toilet, which has a few seats with plenty of leg room scattered around in the same area.

Maybe it's different on Chiltern's turbostars, but in general I find turbostar bicycle provision to be awful. I always feel like my bike is blocking the aisle, or the toilet door, or the wheelchair space. And there's no obvious way to actually secure a bike, leaving it free to move around or fall over.

 

[WesternBiker]

It's a bit different in the Netherlands, though - IME there's relatively little bicycle storage on trains, and the hours are quite restrictive. Instead, you have big, easy to use, secure cycle parks and a national, dirt cheap rail-cycle scheme.

Denmark is an interesting example to look at, though (as I'm sure I've mentioned many times). The local trains round Copenhagen have, in many cases, a full carriage dedicated to cycle storage, and peak time carriage is allowed (though there's one station you can't use, due to its cramped nature).

I suspect my experience was of older NS rolling stock! I'd forgotten about the Danish trains, which are excellent for bikes (weird 2.5+2.5 curved seating though).

More good secure bicycle storage would be good here: Wimbledon has secure racks for over 100 bicycles, but it is now short of capacity. Someone has spent a lot of money for cycle storage at Kingston (see here) - an impressive two-storey structure that can take up to 700 bicycles.