Modern trains and modern lighting

[24Grange]

With modern lighting techniques it's very well possible to create a lighting atmosphere which is pleasant to the traveling public without making the vehicle look like a dentist's room. For example, you can have the colour temperature change subtly throughout the day, with the light being colder in the morning and warmer in the evening - as is the case with the 'night shift' mode on phones. Ambient light sensors can tune the light intensity so that it aligns with the exterior light level.

This is technology which exists today and which is being applied on trains. For example, Deutsche Bahn's ICE 4 units have such systems - and they fully comply with the very latest of regulations.

DfT certainly would not sanction that. Bulk standard ( and cheaper) for the plebs please.

 

[Domh245]

I was quite surprised when the LU S stock had a pleasant level of warm white, as its predecessors had interrogation room levels of a horrid "daylight" colour.

See, I think that the S stock is a bit too warm - when running in darkness it just feels a bit dingy to me, they could have done with being a couple of shades warmer (without going full dentist chair)

 

[AM9]

DfT certainly would not sanction that. Bulk standard ( and cheaper) for the plebs please.

Yup. They know that many UK travellers don't want to pay even more through fares or via tax for higher spec trains that they themselves don't travel on.

 

[satisnek]

The 4-SUBs, and all other non-mainline Southern Electric units prior to the EPBs, only had two lighting circuits per carriage, with specialised bulbs wired in series, operating at line voltage. It's widely documented in books.

Thumpers had their own non-standard bulbs. Most EMUs had 70v bulbs.

So it was presumably 70V bulbs in series groups of 10. Wow, that's crude. Like old-school Christmas tree lights.

Personally I'm quite impressed with the lighting in modern rolling stock. We've definitely moved on from the BR Mk2/3 era and the harsh direct light from simple translucent plastic shades or even bare tubes (see Class 150).

Sadly, it looks like we won't be able to enjoy the cosy atmosphere of incandescent lighting ever again because all preserved lines now seem to have discovered the practicality of the LED.

 

[AM9]

So it was presumably 70V bulbs in series groups of 10. Wow, that's crude. Like old-school Christmas tree lights.

Personally I'm quite impressed with the lighting in modern rolling stock. We've definitely moved on from the BR Mk2/3 era and the harsh direct light from simple translucent plastic shades or even bare tubes (see Class 150).

Sadly, it looks like we won't be able to enjoy the cosy atmosphere of incandescent lighting ever again because all preserved lines now seem to have discovered the practicality of the LED.

At last, a post that recognises the need to move with the times, - alien to some rail enthusiasts I know. With the multiple pressures of safety, reliability, environmental responsibility and of course cost, the future of the railway is to provide a service that complies with moral as well as legal requirements, and doesn't get derailed (pun intended) by nostalgic hankering for practices that were endured before the current obligations were enshrined in law. I expect that the environmental sphere of rules will grow incessantly as the problems of climate change impact across the industry.

 

[yorksrob]

The idea that one can't have energy efficient gentle lighting sounds like Hogwash to me.

 

[dosxuk]

See, I think that the S stock is a bit too warm - when running in darkness it just feels a bit dingy to me, they could have done with being a couple of shades warmer (without going full dentist chair)

Colour temperature (warm - orangey, cold - bluey) and brightness are two separate properties of light. It's quite possible to have warm lighting that's extremely bright and cold lighting that's extremely dim.

Traditional tungsten lamps would shift colour temperature as they were dimmed / brightened - they would go warmer when dimmed. In LED's the colour temperature is constant.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Colour temperature (warm - orangey, cold - bluey) and brightness are two separate properties of light. It's quite possible to have warm lighting that's extremely bright and cold lighting that's extremely dim.

Examples:

Warm but too bright: BR Mk3 lighting as built, it was horrid on bright
Cool but low level and relaxing: Irish IC DMUs

 

[dosxuk]

The idea that one can't have energy efficient gentle lighting sounds like Hogwash to me.

Who's saying that?

You can't have energy efficient tungsten lighting, but there's no reason you couldn't use energy efficient LED's to create identical lighting conditions to the tungsten lamps of old.

What people are saying is that the requirements and expectations of passengers have changed. The majority of passengers don't want gentle subtle lighting on a mass transportation system. They want clear, bright lighting and the benefits to perceived safety and security that brings.

The one downside to LED lighting is that to do it properly / nicely, it's expensive. Sure, cheap LED panels and lamps are cheap, but they are cheap for a reason. If you want colour temperature to be controllable, or them to be dimmable, or you want them to be able to change colour, they get expensive fast.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You can't have energy efficient tungsten lighting, but there's no reason you couldn't use energy efficient LED's to create identical lighting conditions to the tungsten lamps of old.

It is very easy and cheap to make "fake tungsten" LED bulbs. I've got some in my lounge. IKEA sell them for next to nothing. Same with spots for the aisle. They used to be expensive (I was an early adopter about 5-6 years ago and they were a tenner each back then) but now they aren't.

I don't think "bare bulb" fake tungsten is the way to go for the railways, but spotlighting can be used to make the environment far more pleasant.

The one downside to LED lighting is that to do it properly / nicely, it's expensive.

I don't think that is actually true, particularly when you consider the cost of a train.

 

[dosxuk]

I don't think that is actually true, particularly when you consider the cost of a train.

In comparison to tungsten and even fluorescent, the cost of drivers and the control equipment is much higher if you want to start dimming them. With tungsten you can just use a big resistor if you fancy it, where as LEDs require a whole pile of control gear, especially if you want flicker-free behaviour. This is why while you're likely to see some dimmable fixtures on trains, it's unlikely they'll have full colour and dimming control, as the demand for those features (on trains) is pretty much non-existent. On aircraft, where a significant amount of operating time is done with the lights dimmed and where there are actual safety concerns about adapting people's vision to night-time conditions, dimming and colour temperature becomes a bonus and the cost accepted.

Of course, what you lose in initial cost you gain in lifespan, with LED based sources being able to outlast tungsten and even flurry lamps by a significant amount - although there are plenty of LED products out there which tend to overdrive the actual emitters - reducing cost but dramatically shortening the lifespan (same ideas as under-driving the tungsten lamps discussed earlier to have a longer life). Unfortunately a lot of the early white LED sources were overdriven, and had poor phosphor design to boot (most white LEDs are a yellow LED with a blue phosphor) meaning they break early and go a horrible sickly yellow as they age.

Basically, if you want a long life, fully controllable LED light source, with good colour rendering and low maintenance, it will be significantly more expensive than just sticking a 100W old-school tungsten lamp on a dimmer.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Basically, if you want a long life, fully controllable LED light source, with good colour rendering and low maintenance, it will be significantly more expensive than just sticking a 100W old-school tungsten lamp on a dimmer.

It will. But when you consider that a new rail vehicle costs about £1million or thereabouts these days, some of them more, it's pocket-change.

 

[yorksrob]

Who's saying that?

You can't have energy efficient tungsten lighting, but there's no reason you couldn't use energy efficient LED's to create identical lighting conditions to the tungsten lamps of old.

What people are saying is that the requirements and expectations of passengers have changed. The majority of passengers don't want gentle subtle lighting on a mass transportation system. They want clear, bright lighting and the benefits to perceived safety and security that brings.

The one downside to LED lighting is that to do it properly / nicely, it's expensive. Sure, cheap LED panels and lamps are cheap, but they are cheap for a reason. If you want colour temperature to be controllable, or them to be dimmable, or you want them to be able to change colour, they get expensive fast.

I think the majority of passengers probably do want bright lighting on urban mass transit systems. I doubt that this is the case so much for longer distance journeys where people may be sitting down for two or more hours.

 

[bramling]

So you expect nervous passengers to sit for 30 minutes or more using their phone (or a torch) lighting up a poorly lit coach. Even if their torch or phone battery lasted that long, it would hardly cast light into the dark corners enough to see that they are safe.
I can just imagine some of the posters here objecting to having a bright hand-held lamp upset their dingy world.

Surely the answer is built-in spot / reading lamps which individual passengers can choose to switch on or off? It can be done, even on relatively mundane commuter trains - Electrostars have them for one.

I’d say lighting is such a personal preference and divisive issue that this is the only way to please most. Something like a 387 seems to achieve a decent balance.

The 700s have a dim mode which some drivers choose to utilise. I forget what percentage it is, however it does provide a more restful ambience.

The other issue is that all forms of lighting degrade over time. So there will be a difference between a freshly refurbished train with all new lamps, and one which has been in service for some time. We had this at work where there was an almighty fuss when an office was relamped, in this case fluorescent tubes. It kicked off massively such that some people went off and bought freestanding lamps for their own use and had the ceiling lighting off. Two years down the line the lamps have degraded such that the brightness isn’t so intense, yet interestingly the people who were clamouring for bright lighting come what may don’t seem to have noticed! I’m sure a lot is down to perception as much as reality.

 

[gallafent]

Unfortunately a lot of the early white LED sources were overdriven, and had poor phosphor design to boot (most white LEDs are a yellow LED with a blue phosphor) meaning they break early and go a horrible sickly yellow as they age.

I've seen white LED street lamps which are clearly a near-UV LED with a broad spectrum (yellowish) phosphor … how do I know? Because on some of the chips the phosphor has fallen off so there's a very eerie deep violet area of light (just the pure LED output) instead of white …

Alternatively, of course, it could be that they are as you say yellow LEDs with a near-UV phosphor, but the physics of that doesn't feel as if it makes as much sense to me … and a quick google hasn't found me any explainers indicating that there's a yellow emitter and a blue phosphor … but a lot suggesting blue LED with yellow phosphor as a standard construction …

(Some interesting discussion of this from a few years ago here: https://cen.acs.org/materials/inorganic-chemistry/chemical-search-better-white-light/96/i46

Light-emitting diodes (LEDs) that produce white light are about to take over the lighting world. The U.S. market share of these super-long-lasting, cool-to-the-touch lights, which use less than a quarter of the energy of conventional incandescent bulbs, sits around 10%. Industry watchers predict that number will exceed 80% by 2030, reducing power consumption in the U.S. by 40%. Chemists are taking a leading role in this technology, which underpins general lighting and electronic displays, by customizing the emission spectrum, stability, and other properties of inorganic phosphors in the LEDs that help produce finely tuned white light.

).

 

[dosxuk]

I've seen white LED street lamps which are clearly a near-UV LED with a broad spectrum phosphor … how do I know? Because on some of the chips the phosphor has fallen off so there's a very eerie deep violet area of light instead of white …

Yeah, the other way is to go blue LED with a yellow phosphor - I think these have become a lot more popular for higher power white LEDs in the last few years.

 

[gallafent]

Yeah, the other way is to go blue LED with a yellow phosphor - I think these have become a lot more popular for higher power white LEDs in the last few years.

Makes sense, I think we'll count street lighting as a high power application

 

[Journeyman]

I think the majority of passengers probably do want bright lighting on urban mass transit systems. I doubt that this is the case so much for longer distance journeys where people may be sitting down for two or more hours.

You're still trying to cast your own particular preferences onto other people. I still maintain it's a very minor issue for almost everyone.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

And I've not seen any evidence to suggest that "normals" are eager to travel in harshly lit uncomfortably furnished train carriages.

Perhaps designers ought to learn a little from more softly furnished and gently lighted designs to come up with an interior that people actually feel comfortable in, for modern rolling stock.

This forum seems to find huge problems with trains being uncomfortable, or not having seat/window alignment *just* right.

No real passenger, ever, has gone on their daily commute and cursed the fact that their fast, modern, reliable train lacks 1950s vintage sprung seats and good ol' tungsten lighting.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I've seen white LED street lamps which are clearly a near-UV LED with a broad spectrum (yellowish) phosphor … how do I know? Because on some of the chips the phosphor has fallen off so there's a very eerie deep violet area of light (just the pure LED output) instead of white …

Alternatively, of course, it could be that they are as you say yellow LEDs with a near-UV phosphor, but the physics of that doesn't feel as if it makes as much sense to me … and a quick google hasn't found me any explainers indicating that there's a yellow emitter and a blue phosphor … but a lot suggesting blue LED with yellow phosphor as a standard construction …

You are correct, they are generally UV with the desired colour temperature of phosphor.

 

[yorksrob]

You're still trying to cast your own particular preferences onto other people. I still maintain it's a very minor issue for almost everyone.

This forum seems to find huge problems with trains being uncomfortable, or not having seat/window alignment *just* right.

No real passenger, ever, has gone on their daily commute and cursed the fact that their fast, modern, reliable train lacks 1950s vintage sprung seats and good ol' tungsten lighting.

And some people on this forum seem happy to accept any deterioration in passenger comfort standards without question.

Real passengers will look at comfort if they are choosing how to make their journey.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This forum seems to find huge problems with trains being uncomfortable, or not having seat/window alignment *just* right.

No real passenger, ever, has gone on their daily commute and cursed the fact that their fast, modern, reliable train lacks 1950s vintage sprung seats and good ol' tungsten lighting.

Commuters put up with whatever. But commuting is so 2019, and leisure passengers do bemourn the lack of tables and window alignment for their kids to look out.

 

[Journeyman]

And some people on this forum seem happy to accept any deterioration in passenger comfort standards without question.

EPBs and CIGs aren't coming back. Be a lone crusader if you like, but your views aren't common.

Real passengers will look at comfort if they are choosing how to make their journey.

What's a "real" passenger, for goodness' sake? As already pointed out, the railway is already (COVID notwithstanding) attracting more passengers than it can cope with.

 

[Bletchleyite]

EPBs and CIGs aren't coming back. Be a lone crusader if you like, but your views aren't common.

Indeed. But I reckon your average leisure traveller will prefer a Brighton line Electrostar over a 700. They are both modernish trains, but one is built for pure practicality and the other has a bit of ambiance.

 

[Journeyman]

Indeed. But I reckon your average leisure traveller will prefer a Brighton line Electrostar over a 700.

Quite possibly, but they're designed for different jobs anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Quite possibly, but they're designed for different jobs anyway.

Indeed, but if comfort, tables, window alignment, non stark lighting etc weren't important, they would look more similar.

 

[GlitterUnicorn]

And some people on this forum seem happy to accept any deterioration in passenger comfort standards without question.

Real passengers will look at comfort if they are choosing how to make their journey.

Even by this forum's standards of being ridiculously obsessive over details that no sane person would care about, this is a bit of a weird view.

Trains are a lot more comfortable now than they ever were in the days of dingy, tungsten lit compartments with 1950s interior and no air conditioning. No-one cares about this.

 

[yorksrob]

EPBs and CIGs aren't coming back. Be a lone crusader if you like, but your views aren't common.

What's a "real" passenger, for goodness' sake? As already pointed out, the railway is already (COVID notwithstanding) attracting more passengers than it can cope with.

The leisure passenger who has a choice of how to travel.

By the way, the first mention of an EPB on this thread was post 12 - one of yours.

Quite possibly, but they're designed for different jobs anyway.

They both run a semi-fast service from London to the coast. That's the same job.

Even by this forum's standards of being ridiculously obsessive over details that no sane person would care about, this is a bit of a weird view.

Trains are a lot more comfortable now than they ever were in the days of dingy, tungsten lit compartments with 1950s interior and no air conditioning. No-one cares about this.

You only have to look at how ironing board seats have made it into the news.

I find the obsession with some on here of defending every single design flaw with modern rolling stock peculiar.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I find the obsession with some on here of defending every single design flaw with modern rolling stock peculiar.

While I don't hark back to Mk1s (I think they were pretty awful, to be honest) I agree with this point - cars are getting more comfortable and trains are not, and we do need to try to resolve that, particularly if commuting will be permanently down meaning that "cram em in" layouts like 700s and 3+2 seating are essentially no longer necessary.

It only takes a look at Alex Hornby's successful Transdev high quality bus operations to give an idea of what sort of interiors are attractive to people. He has managed to get a very high bus ridership in and around Harrogate, which is seriously posh and would normally be Range Rover land.

 

[Journeyman]

The leisure passenger who has a choice of how to travel.

Yes, and many choose to travel by train. I guarantee you that lighting levels do not factor into their decisions.

They both run a semi-fast service from London to the coast. That's the same job.

That's how they're used. It's no different to the way CIGs and VEPs were used on the same routes in the past.

I find the obsession with some on here of defending every single design flaw with modern rolling stock peculiar.

I find it far more peculiar that you can't seem to let this issue go, despite this thread showing that your view is niche to say the least.