Thank you all in advance for taking the time to read and possibly help with this! It's a bit long but it says to include all info!
Last week my 16 year old daughter travelled alone from Devon to London and then on with a friend to stay with them in Kent. (All very well planned and checked by us by the way!!)
Before travelling to Paddington she got a 16 year old's railcard, and bought her ticket using thetrainline.com which gave her an eTicket which she used on the gates at either end, and the same on the return journey a few days later. Whilst staying with her friend in Kent, they arranged to travel from Gillingham to Victoria to meet some other friends. Upon arriving at the station the train was already on the platform and the ticket barriers were open. Worried/panicking about missing the train, and hence the arranged meeting, my daughter and her friend ran for the train as they expected to buy the ticket on board. As an aside to explain this - she once spent a year "commuting" to school on SW Trains... she always had a season ticket but every day other school children would buy their tickets from guards on the train. (I also commuted for 20 years on SWT and although I always had a season ticket this again was something that I understood to be the norm - find the guard and buy your ticket asap and all's good). Having got on the train there was no guard that she could find so she went onto thetrainline.com to buy a ticket - she entered Gillingham as the departure station but it gave an error and wouldn't let her continue as the train had already left. So she entered the next station Chatham - but before she could complete the purchase they had passed through and this also errored and she had to put the next station Rochester. She paid for 2 tickets at the correct price and thetrainline.com issued a voucher for printing on a ticket machine "at any station" - she hadn't expected this as previously she got an eTicket but assumed she could just print this at Victoria. Her debit card was debited as soon as she made the payment and she believed (as do I!) that that constituted a purchased ticket.
At Victoria my daughter and her friend approached a member of staff at the gate and showed them the thetrainline.com voucher and asked where they could print the ticket from. They were told to speak to 2 men who were presumably inspectors who proceded to have what was in my opinion a rather dismissive, patronising and passive-aggressive conversation. They told my daughter the code didn't constitute a ticket as it wasn't printed, and then lectured her on how SouthEastern don't receive the payment from thetrainline.com until she prints the ticket - I don't think that's relevant in the slightest and my daughter said they'd approached the staff asking just that, how/where do they print them. The inspectors then split the 2 girls apart (inappropriate really) and proceded to ask quite forcefully "who let you through the ticket barriers" - my daughter explained they were open and he again demanded to know "who let you through". My daughter stated yet again that the barriers were open and she'd tried to buy the correct ticket, but the inspector then started saying how she could have come from Dover Priory (?) and they'd be checking CCTV to check everything etc. My daughter again said she had paid and they had come from Gillingham where her friend lives, the money had been taken from her card, and she can print the ticket. The inspector now asks her for her address - when she gives her address in Devon he says he doesn't believe her... what can she say or do? She obviously states that the address is hers and now the inspector says she might have come from Plymouth! (I mean really?!). My daughter was obviously very uncomfortable having thought she was doing the right thing and again says she's paid for the ticket and why can't he let her print it - the inspector now demands to see her railcard for the thetrainline.com ticket/voucher - so she shows her railcard. But he still refuses to let her print the ticket and says the small print on thetrainline.com says the ticket has to be printed before travel - my daughter says she didn't see anything saying that and the inspector says "it does, it's just in the small print that nobody bothers to read"!
To cap it all off, whilst all of this is going on a young man (adult) is stopped without a ticket... he simply claims he must have dropped it, and my daughter says he was let through whilst they were stopped and issued with Penalty Fares.
I would be interested to hear thoughts on this please - to my mind this is overly officious and inappropriate in the circumstances. The language used was indirectly quite threatening with talk of CCTV and accusing her of lying and that she might have come from Plymouth (since when do trains go from Plymouth to Victoria via Gilingham?!), quite intimidating and daunting for a 16 year old by herself in London for the first time. My daughter was clearly not from the area, had made what she believed was a correct ticket purchase and her card had been debited. Is this really not considered a valid ticket or authority to travel? She can show she bought all the correct tickets on her other trips, and she approached staff asking how to print the ticket at Victoria before exiting the barrriers... it's hardly deliberate fare evasion. If it's a mistake, it's a very honest mistake.
My daughter says as well as the ticket barriers being open there was nothing to indicate she could not proceed onto the train without a ticket.
The penalty fare notice states "Grounds Info: Has trainline booking ref not printed at rtr prior travel".
Thetrainline.com doesn't offer the option of an eTicket for this trip, it simply states:
It doesn't not state you have to do this BEFORE travel. There are 3 sets of conditions too, one of which are "carriers' conditions" here (https://static.trainlinecontent.com/content/WEB/documents/NationalRail_ConditionsOfTravel.pdf) which is a 36 page PDF, presumably the document the inspector says nobody bothers (or agrees) to read before purchase!
Is there any legal or procedural issue with this penalty fare? It seems entirely unfair on someone who has made her best attempt to do the right thing without knowing that, presumably, somewhere in 36 pages of T&Cs she should not have done this and in complete contradiction of personal experience of buying tickets on board trains?
Last week my 16 year old daughter travelled alone from Devon to London and then on with a friend to stay with them in Kent. (All very well planned and checked by us by the way!!)
Before travelling to Paddington she got a 16 year old's railcard, and bought her ticket using thetrainline.com which gave her an eTicket which she used on the gates at either end, and the same on the return journey a few days later. Whilst staying with her friend in Kent, they arranged to travel from Gillingham to Victoria to meet some other friends. Upon arriving at the station the train was already on the platform and the ticket barriers were open. Worried/panicking about missing the train, and hence the arranged meeting, my daughter and her friend ran for the train as they expected to buy the ticket on board. As an aside to explain this - she once spent a year "commuting" to school on SW Trains... she always had a season ticket but every day other school children would buy their tickets from guards on the train. (I also commuted for 20 years on SWT and although I always had a season ticket this again was something that I understood to be the norm - find the guard and buy your ticket asap and all's good). Having got on the train there was no guard that she could find so she went onto thetrainline.com to buy a ticket - she entered Gillingham as the departure station but it gave an error and wouldn't let her continue as the train had already left. So she entered the next station Chatham - but before she could complete the purchase they had passed through and this also errored and she had to put the next station Rochester. She paid for 2 tickets at the correct price and thetrainline.com issued a voucher for printing on a ticket machine "at any station" - she hadn't expected this as previously she got an eTicket but assumed she could just print this at Victoria. Her debit card was debited as soon as she made the payment and she believed (as do I!) that that constituted a purchased ticket.
At Victoria my daughter and her friend approached a member of staff at the gate and showed them the thetrainline.com voucher and asked where they could print the ticket from. They were told to speak to 2 men who were presumably inspectors who proceded to have what was in my opinion a rather dismissive, patronising and passive-aggressive conversation. They told my daughter the code didn't constitute a ticket as it wasn't printed, and then lectured her on how SouthEastern don't receive the payment from thetrainline.com until she prints the ticket - I don't think that's relevant in the slightest and my daughter said they'd approached the staff asking just that, how/where do they print them. The inspectors then split the 2 girls apart (inappropriate really) and proceded to ask quite forcefully "who let you through the ticket barriers" - my daughter explained they were open and he again demanded to know "who let you through". My daughter stated yet again that the barriers were open and she'd tried to buy the correct ticket, but the inspector then started saying how she could have come from Dover Priory (?) and they'd be checking CCTV to check everything etc. My daughter again said she had paid and they had come from Gillingham where her friend lives, the money had been taken from her card, and she can print the ticket. The inspector now asks her for her address - when she gives her address in Devon he says he doesn't believe her... what can she say or do? She obviously states that the address is hers and now the inspector says she might have come from Plymouth! (I mean really?!). My daughter was obviously very uncomfortable having thought she was doing the right thing and again says she's paid for the ticket and why can't he let her print it - the inspector now demands to see her railcard for the thetrainline.com ticket/voucher - so she shows her railcard. But he still refuses to let her print the ticket and says the small print on thetrainline.com says the ticket has to be printed before travel - my daughter says she didn't see anything saying that and the inspector says "it does, it's just in the small print that nobody bothers to read"!
To cap it all off, whilst all of this is going on a young man (adult) is stopped without a ticket... he simply claims he must have dropped it, and my daughter says he was let through whilst they were stopped and issued with Penalty Fares.
I would be interested to hear thoughts on this please - to my mind this is overly officious and inappropriate in the circumstances. The language used was indirectly quite threatening with talk of CCTV and accusing her of lying and that she might have come from Plymouth (since when do trains go from Plymouth to Victoria via Gilingham?!), quite intimidating and daunting for a 16 year old by herself in London for the first time. My daughter was clearly not from the area, had made what she believed was a correct ticket purchase and her card had been debited. Is this really not considered a valid ticket or authority to travel? She can show she bought all the correct tickets on her other trips, and she approached staff asking how to print the ticket at Victoria before exiting the barrriers... it's hardly deliberate fare evasion. If it's a mistake, it's a very honest mistake.
My daughter says as well as the ticket barriers being open there was nothing to indicate she could not proceed onto the train without a ticket.
The penalty fare notice states "Grounds Info: Has trainline booking ref not printed at rtr prior travel".
Thetrainline.com doesn't offer the option of an eTicket for this trip, it simply states:
Collect from any station with a ticket machine. How?
- Tap 'Collect Tickets' at the ticket machine
- Insert the payment card used or if you pay with PayPal use any valid debit/credit card
- Type in your collection reference (shown after you have bought your tickets)
It doesn't not state you have to do this BEFORE travel. There are 3 sets of conditions too, one of which are "carriers' conditions" here (https://static.trainlinecontent.com/content/WEB/documents/NationalRail_ConditionsOfTravel.pdf) which is a 36 page PDF, presumably the document the inspector says nobody bothers (or agrees) to read before purchase!
Is there any legal or procedural issue with this penalty fare? It seems entirely unfair on someone who has made her best attempt to do the right thing without knowing that, presumably, somewhere in 36 pages of T&Cs she should not have done this and in complete contradiction of personal experience of buying tickets on board trains?