BBC News Article - Rail industry urges workers not to spurn the train

[gg1]

Then why is car use near 100% of pre pandemic levels. If people did stop commuting then you would see a drop in car use as well.

Different locations of different types of jobs.

The vast majority of commuter rail travel is into city centres, a large proportion of those people will be either working in offices (so will likely still be working at home some or most of the time) or hospitality (which has seen greatly reduced demand therefore less staff). The industries where working from home isn't feasible are far more likely to be located outside city centres where driving is frequently a more attractive option than the train.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Apart from the bit where Virgin later wanted to lengthen the Voyagers after seeing how popular they were and the SRA refused…

The SRA had precious little money due to (a) the post Railtrack meltdown and the Regulator at the time giving a very generous settlement to the then infrastructure "operator" (b) there were many "franchises" (remember them ?) who were being supported financially for all sorts of reasons.

Blaming the "nasty" SRA is a somewhat difficult / easy comment to make.

Remember - the original XC franchise lost money in any case , - only after a change of ownership did the XC operation become subsidy lower / free after a great deal of work.

 

[bramling]

Weekends are a mess cancellation-wise, but weekdays seem to be much less affected.

Today has been absolutely dire on the GN side. From a cursory glance at things I'd agree the GN side has been better on weekdays since the September timetable change came in. My experience prior to that hasn't been wonderful, not uncommon to get three cancellations on the bounce for example.

 

[Jamesrob637]

As an observation, my trains in and out of Manchester have been pretty busy. Not as busy as pre-covid, but between this week last week there has certainly been a marked uptick in crowdedness. Many people are choosing to stand rather than sit right next to someone, buy if all the people who were stood took one of the seats that had been left available, there would still be people left standing. This has all been on 4-car 319s.

I sometimes want to stand on the way home having been sat down pretty much all day.

 

[al78]

This. In spades.

Statistically higher, but still very very low per journey at least especially if you don't drive like an aggressive loon. Much of the death/injury risk with motor vehicles is externalised. Not many motorists get seriously injured or killed through hitting a pedestrian, but plenty of pedestrians get seriously injured or killed after being hit with a motor vehicle. Having recently used my car to visit family and getting stuck in traffic on the M40, M25, M56 and M6 caused by collisions during that time, I do wonder that given motorways are incredibly easy to drive on, why so many people still manage to crash and cause waves of traffic congestion.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Statistically higher, but still very very low per journey at least especially if you don't drive like an aggressive loon. Much of the death/injury risk with motor vehicles is externalised. Not many motorists get seriously injured or killed through hitting a pedestrian, but plenty of pedestrians get seriously injured or killed after being hit with a motor vehicle. Having recently used my car to visit family and getting stuck in traffic on the M40, M25, M56 and M6 caused by collisions during that time, I do wonder that given motorways are incredibly easy to drive on, why so many people still manage to crash and cause waves of traffic congestion.

Lack of concentration is what I encounter on motorways. I had to bang the hazards on and stop in lane 1 on the M4 in July while the car driver ahead and already partly in my lane 1 worked out that lanes 2 & 3 were shut - deduced after they stopped buy obvious by the line of cones within inches of their off side front !.

 

[al78]

For people who've worked absolutely fine from home for the last 18 months, I still don't get how, unless their employers is giving them no choice, anybody now reasonably expects them to turn up and hand over £5,000+ at their local Home Counties station for the privilege of spending 90/120 minutes on trains every single day in addition to their working hours.

Why would any rational person (who is able and willing to WFH, as many people are adjusted to now, but not everybody) go back to doing that every single day?

That's why some commuters will return daily (who do want to be in the office, or have to be), but some will only return partially.

Although if they were commuting into London and receiving London weighting on their salary, if they stop commuting, their employer might decide they no longer need the London weighting.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Although if they were commuting into London and receiving London weighting on their salary, if they stop commuting, their employer might decide they no longer need the London weighting.

I wonder if the London weighting is sufficient to pay for the cost of a season ticket ?.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Lack of concentration is what I encounter on motorways. I had to bang the hazards on and stop in lane 1 on the M4 in July while the car driver ahead and already partly in my lane 1 worked out that lanes 2 & 3 were shut - deduced after they stopped buy obvious by the line of cones within inches of their off side front !.

I trust you weren't trying to block them from merging in turn on the approach to the obstruction (assuming "red X" weren't in use) as you are supposed to do despite a lot of people seeming to think it's wrong?

 

[al78]

I trust you weren't trying to block them from merging in turn on the approach to the obstruction (assuming "red X" weren't in use) as you are supposed to do despite a lot of people seeming to think it's wrong?

Never understood this attitude. Using all the road up to the constriction and zip merging is the most efficient way to get the traffic through it.

 

[JonathanH]

London weighting on their salary

I'd imagine it was consolidated into normal pay many years ago. Is London weighting still a thing?

I wonder if the London weighting is sufficient to pay for the cost of a season ticket ?.

Almost certainly not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Never understood this attitude. Using all the road up to the constriction and zip merging is the most efficient way to get the traffic through it.

Sometimes you see signs instructing you to do this - perhaps they should be shown at all roadworks because it makes the most efficient use of roadspace and reduces the congestion as people can merge while still moving.

But stubbornly blocking another driver so they have to stop in a running lane on a motorway, whether you like zip-merging or not, and whether they have made an error or not, is a wilfully dangerous act and could attract a criminal change if witnessed by a Police Officer (and quite rightly, too).

 

[Peter Sarf]

I trust you weren't trying to block them from merging in turn on the approach to the obstruction (assuming "red X" weren't in use) as you are supposed to do despite a lot of people seeming to think it's wrong?

There was not much traffic at all and they were well clear in front of me until they stopped. They just had not seen the cones it would seem, probably panicked, and stopped instead of realising they had effectively got lane 1 already !. I had watched them in front of me for a while and wondered why they were not moving over despite there being nothing in lane 1 to impede them. Possibly a mddle lane cruiser glued begtween the lines or just a driver losing concentration.

Never understood this attitude. Using all the road up to the constriction and zip merging is the most efficient way to get the traffic through it.

However I do not like to merge in too late though. I prefer to be out of the closing lane before I am relying too much on someone elses good will. But all it takes is one slight hiccup and the whole road grinds to a halt anyway. Some peoples' zip merging does seem to relay on overtaking while the closing lane is just wide enough and then getting very close to the car "letting them in" though. I do see it causing frustration when everyone has dutifully moved over and then one driver zooms ahead to get past as many vehicles as possible. So I will avoid staying in a closing lane if everyone else has already made the moneovre out of it. (even if I did once end up back in the wrong lane later !).

Ususally it seems the congestion is caused by reduced capacity as the speed limit drops. The merging then happens after that ideally.

Back on track I noticed last year on my commute that when the roads were empty there were a few cars driven well over the speed limit. Thats on a 30mpy dual carriage way. I wonder if they were ex-public transport users or just regular drivers who would always drive as fast as they needed to to fill the emptly space in front of them !.

 

[Purple Orange]

I'd imagine it was consolidated into normal pay many years ago. Is London weighting still a thing?


Almost certainly not.

London weighting is very much alive and kicking. Unfortunately the additional salary rarely compensates for the additional cost of mortgage or rent.

 

[Bikeman78]

Absolutely, particularly seats. My wife's comment is that the azumas are amazing trains other than the seats, she said give me a mk3 seat on an azuma and she's happy.


I also think peak fares are a thing of the past.

Quite. There seems to be a view that only enthusiasts dislike new trains and 'normals' think they are all wonderful. Talking to my ex recently I mentioned a Voyager and she replied "You mean the horrible trains that smell of poo!"

I do wonder that given motorways are incredibly easy to drive on, why so many people still manage to crash and cause waves of traffic congestion.

Half an hour on YouTube will probably answer that question.

 

[IanXC]

Different locations of different types of jobs.

The vast majority of commuter rail travel is into city centres, a large proportion of those people will be either working in offices (so will likely still be working at home some or most of the time) or hospitality (which has seen greatly reduced demand therefore less staff). The industries where working from home isn't feasible are far more likely to be located outside city centres where driving is frequently a more attractive option than the train.

The issue in hospitality is that there aren't the staff willing to take up the vacancies, very much not a demand problem.

Clearly as far as commuters go thats the same problem.

 

[bramling]

Statistically higher, but still very very low per journey at least especially if you don't drive like an aggressive loon. Much of the death/injury risk with motor vehicles is externalised. Not many motorists get seriously injured or killed through hitting a pedestrian, but plenty of pedestrians get seriously injured or killed after being hit with a motor vehicle. Having recently used my car to visit family and getting stuck in traffic on the M40, M25, M56 and M6 caused by collisions during that time, I do wonder that given motorways are incredibly easy to drive on, why so many people still manage to crash and cause waves of traffic congestion.

Poor lane discipline seems to be the big thing round here, where the London end of the A1(M) is a bit of a blackspot.

I’d say the biggest issues are
* people who when joining the motorway just *have* to get to the outside lane that moment
* people hogging the middle and outside lanes at a speed less than prevailing, which will eventually lead to someone trying to undertake the queue that’s built up behind the problem driver
* misjudged moves to the right from one lane to another.

I’d say an unfortunate combination of the second and third of those is something which arises quite often, and is especially dangerous.

 

[M7R]

The cost is silly now for long distance. There’s no advance fares for some routes making it a no brainer to use the car. My other half and I are off to London Sunday 21st Nov, coming back the next day from Market Harborough and it’s £72! No advance fares to be found at all and no chance of split ticket either. Oh and they can’t say yet if the travel will be disrupted…

 

[Dr Day]

Back more to the OP. WFH is clearly a disaster for the rail industry who will need to adapt/rationalise but is it really such a bad thing for the wider hospitality industry to have to adapt/rationalise a bit too and focus efforts in more residential areas rather than city centres? And for city centres themselves to become more geared towards serving the people that actually live there, rather than those that simply come in and go out again? Whilst it feels opulent working from home to go out and buy lunch or grab a coffee rather than stick the kettle or the toaster on, I personally find it beneficial to get away from the desk and support my local coffee shop who offer much better value and more personal service than the city centre chains.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Back more to the OP. WFH is clearly a disaster for the rail industry who will need to adapt/rationalise but is it really such a bad thing for the wider hospitality industry to have to adapt/rationalise a bit too and focus efforts in more residential areas rather than city centres? And for city centres themselves to become more geared towards serving the people that actually live there, rather than those that simply come in and go out again? Whilst it feels opulent working from home to go out and buy lunch or grab a coffee rather than stick the kettle or the toaster on, I personally find it beneficial to get away from the desk and support my local coffee shop who offer much better value and more personal service than the city centre chains.

This does alert me to the decline of city centres at the hands of the internet. The march of that has probably been greatly brought forward by Covid-19 but was looking inevitable. Rail travel (to working from home) may well be just another victim of that alongside retail (going online) and hospitality (going to residential areas to chase the workers).

So it is all about attracting what custom is left. Because rail only acounted for about 10% (based on previous posts) of commuting etc there is scope to pick up travellers from other modes. Road getting less attractive is one (seen the price of petrol ?), but I would hope for rail to be made more attractive. As I said before Comfort, information and rationalisation of operators to ONE (athough a cheap operator is very attractive). I have not mentioned cost because I do not know how easy that is to address.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Back more to the OP. WFH is clearly a disaster for the rail industry who will need to adapt/rationalise but is it really such a bad thing for the wider hospitality industry to have to adapt/rationalise a bit too and focus efforts in more residential areas rather than city centres?

I completely agree.

For far too long, residential areas have been deserts of poor retail and hospitality offerings, give or take the growth of mini supermarkets, because people are typically not there during the day.

Now they are, a better hospitality offering (perhaps so home workers could go out for lunch if they wanted to change the scenery) and a better small-business retail offering (the classic "butcher, baker and candlestick maker", perhaps) presents big opportunity to reverse something which was overall quite bad.

As for the railway, as others have said it has such a small part of the travel market that if it plays its cards right it has an essentially unlimited (as far as its capacity goes) possibility to take from car and air.

 

[Peter Sarf]

........

As for the railway, as others have said it has such a small part of the travel market that if it plays its cards right it has an essentially unlimited (as far as its capacity goes) possibility to take from car and air.

Yes, you are right. Air as well as road. Cost of ticket seems to be the challenge for both there but domestic air travel really ought to be unfahionable.

 

[hwl]

As for the railway, as others have said it has such a small part of the travel market that if it plays its cards right it has an essentially unlimited (as far as its capacity goes) possibility to take from car and air.

Rail usage levels in urban areas and hinterlands can be up to a quarter of the (numerous) best case examples on the continent.

 

[gg1]

The issue in hospitality is that there aren't the staff willing to take up the vacancies, very much not a demand problem.

Staffing may well be a problem too but there is also significantly reduced demand for city based services due in large part to changes in working patterns, ie formerly office based staff no longer using coffee shops, cafes, takeaways etc at lunchtime or pubs and restaurants after work, less face to face meetings/events so reduced demand for conference room bookings, less business travel so reduced demand for hotel rooms.

For cities like London and Edinburgh with a large tourist trade, the reductions in international tourism will have had an impact too.

 

[Taunton]

The cost is silly now for long distance. There’s no advance fares for some routes making it a no brainer to use the car.

For people who have found the car convenient (for which no Advance Booking nonsense for just a specific time is required), it's yet another rail industry own goal to try and increase their proportion of Advances. Notably it's not necessary for any travel within Greater London. A lot of it seems to be nothing more than twisting Orcats to get all the revenue for one operator, rather than it being divided up. It's not only the excessive price of Anytime, it's the confounded inconvenience of having to be there for just one specific service, particularly where frequency is high enough that it's a Metro-like service anyway.

Notably the runaway success on long distance of Savers and Super Savers in the 1980s (initially a BR Liverpool Division local initiative if I recall correctly, later expanded nationwide) was not tied to advance booking, you just kept clear of the morning peak. And the railway handled the resulting traffic fine - there was far less standing on long-distance services then than nowadays.

 

[mister-sparky]

Here in the south east 12 car trains are full and standing in the weekday peaks and at weekends, so definitely not 30% loading here!

 

[Peter Sarf]

The issue in hospitality is that there aren't the staff willing to take up the vacancies, very much not a demand problem.

Clearly as far as commuters go thats the same problem.

Of course go back 50 years and there was far less hospitality. It was only the very well off that partook of food cooked by others. My mother used to say that my grandmother (who had money to spare) would turn in her grave if she knew we were eating out. Thing with working from home is I do not know how desperate people will be to get out for a break. If they are then it might not just be for a pricey coffee and cake but more a snack in the kitchen. Then perhaps a walk somewhere nice - maybe a positive will be the need to use the train to get out of the reidential area for a short/long break.

Remember, whilst working from home, the boss is not watching you although a lot of computer systems these days can monitor your activity. A downside of working from home is not knowing when to stop work - or even start work. I see my daughter in law working late in her bedroom. Not healthy (seat and table not ideal). But then I myself used to work late in the office to get things done - if I was in the middle of a large chunk of code I would want to get it out of my head and coded while it was fresh in my mind. But my point is that longer term working from home might become less fashionable. I have detected that people can be less productive at home so the firm might want the flock back in. But I think most likely a blend involving fewer days in the office per week. Remember companies will be saving on office space (HVAC, rent etc). I doubt we will ever see a return to the pre-Covid levels of going to work but there will be presures for and against working from home coming from employers and employees. It will take time to see the final result but I wonder how much time the railways have to run attractive but lightly used services ready for people to be enticed back.

@Taunton mentions the car. Well, I just thought, for anyone who bought a car or second car to cope with Covid-19 they are not going to leave that car idle at home and go back to using the train. Not until the insurance and road tax come round and also not until they can get out of the finance deal they might have signed up to. Then there will be the time it takes other people to forget why they avoided public transport. So I think there are plenty of reasons why the return to rail will take time.