Class 365 scrap movements + preservation discussion

[Wolvercoter]

Thanks @The_Train and @bramling . Much appreciated.

 

[Class455]

Hi all,
Just trying to piece together storage locations of the 365s. Can anyone confirm whether this is correct?

All odd-numbered units at Crewe South and all even-numbered units at Doncaster Belmont, except:
512 at Ely
525 at Bicester
526 at Crewe Works
528 at Ely
539 at Doncaster Belmont

Why is 525 at Bicester?

 

[Aictos]

Why is 525 at Bicester?

ETCS fitment as it's the first of it's type I believe, basically it's a test bed as I understand it but I'm sure the likes of @Bald Rick @The Planner etc will be along to correct me...

 

[D365]

Why is 525 at Bicester?

ETCS activities, I would imagine.

 

[Fuzzytop]

Cl.365s will be making their first visit to Newport and Rotherham next week. One-way trips. More to follow I gather.
Some have been OOU for more than 3 years...they cannot stand forever. And newer EMUs are coming off-lease in not too distant future either!!

Looks like the end is imminent for (at least some of) these EMUs.

 

[Class360/1]

Looks like the end is imminent for (at least some of) these EMUs.

Unfortunately so

 

[43102EMR]

Struggling to find the paths, are they the Crewe based ones on the Belmont based ones?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Struggling to find the paths, are they the Crewe based ones on the Belmont based ones?

The paths may well be not uploaded yet

 

[DustyBin]

Looks like the end is imminent for (at least some of) these EMUs.

What a shame. It's too late now but we really needed a national rolling stock strategy to prevent this waste in my opinion (as well as further electrification).

 

[365 Networker]

Very sad, but not much of a surprise. It would be nice to see one preserved, but I can't see that happening. I assume the ETCS unit 365525 won't be scrapped yet?

 

[43102EMR]

Very sad, but not much of a surprise. It would be nice to see one preserved, but I can't see that happening. I assume the ETCS unit 365525 won't be scrapped yet?

Would’ve thought at least one would be preserved being the last units to be built out of Holgate Works

 

[adc82140]

I doubt any will be preserved. They are the first of the family of Networkers to go, so still plenty of examples of that type on the rails for some time to come. Given the extensive remodelling of the front end, I don't think we'll see any stuffed and mounted either.

 

[The_Train]

Are the plans to convert some of these to parcel carriers not continuing now?
They'd have never wanted the entire fleet but if there is still this plan in place then at least some of the fleet will survive, albeit in a different form!

 

[DustyBin]

Are the plans to convert some of these to parcel carriers not continuing now?
They'd have never wanted the entire fleet but if there is still this plan in place then at least some of the fleet will survive, albeit in a different form!

I’m not sure but there are plenty of 319s and (soon) 321s available for that.

 

[365 Networker]

Given the extensive remodelling of the front end

I think that could be removed. I might be wrong, but I believe the original front is still underneath and the new one hinges up.

Are the plans to convert some of these to parcel carriers not continuing now?

Varamis is now using 321s unfortunately.

 

[The_Train]

I’m not sure but there are plenty of 319s and (soon) 321s available for that.

It was Varamis Rail I was thinking of but it appears that they were already looking at other EMU options last year so maybe the writing is on the wall for the full fleet. Varamis do still have a Class 365 as their header photo on Twitter though......

 

[D365]

Very sad, but not much of a surprise. It would be nice to see one preserved, but I can't see that happening. I assume the ETCS unit 365525 won't be scrapped yet?

The first-in-class fitment might simply be a fulfilment of the contract with Alstom. But yes I assume it won’t be going for scrap anytime soon-ish.

 

[365 Networker]

I assume it won’t be going for scrap anytime soon-ish.

That would surely make sense as it could be used to test the ECML equipment.

 

[bramling]

Unfortunately so

The whole thing is ridiculous, but is about right for the way the railway / country is being managed at the moment. By any measure, scrapping half-life good-condition trains is poor when there's plenty of much older diesel and electric trains still running, many of which with no replacement currently planned.

There is absolutely no justification for how this situation has arisen.

It probably does make it a safe bet the 379s will appear on GN at some point, as from what I gather the full suite of peak extras will be coming back eventually, and resourcing that will be a problem especially if they want to get rid of the 313 or 455 fleets without building new.

Another fall-out from Covid, unfortunately. Having said that, if this is how the industry wastes revenue, no wonder things are in dire straits. I’ve been debating for the last few months whether to renew my annual this December, which has seen little use for the last 18 months as I’ve got very comfy using the car to get to work. Think I’ll put the money towards petrol rather than subsidising an industry which throws money into buying fleets it doesn’t need.

 

[Royston Vasey]

I think that could be removed. I might be wrong, but I believe the original front is still underneath and the new one hinges up.

Varamis is now using 321s unfortunately.

Varamis isn't using anything! I'm sure they've sold a few gift sets though.

 

[D365]

That would surely make sense as it could be used to test the ECML equipment.

Perhaps yes, in order to compare Alstom kit against Siemens.

 

[3973EXL]

ROG STP 27/09

Realtime Trains - FRGT 1047 Derby R.T.C.(Network Rail) to Belmont Down Yard

 

[Fincra5]

The whole thing is ridiculous, but is about right for the way the railway / country is being managed at the moment. By any measure, scrapping half-life good-condition trains is poor when there's plenty of much older diesel and electric trains still running, many of which with no replacement currently planned.

There is absolutely no justification for how this situation has arisen.

It probably does make it a safe bet the 379s will appear on GN at some point, as from what I gather the full suite of peak extras will be coming back eventually, and resourcing that will be a problem especially if they want to get rid of the 313 or 455 fleets without building new.

Another fall-out from Covid, unfortunately. Having said that, if this is how the industry wastes revenue, no wonder things are in dire straits. I’ve been debating for the last few months whether to renew my annual this December, which has seen little use for the last 18 months as I’ve got very comfy using the car to get to work. Think I’ll put the money towards petrol rather than subsidising an industry which throws money into buying fleets it doesn’t need.

Where do you suggest the 365s go? They're AC only EMUS with dated equipment (some which can case signalling issues and so on...)

I've got a soft spot for Networkers but they're not up to par with modern stock anymore.

About 4-5 years after the last 365 was built, the 375 comes along as is leaps and bounds ahead for passengers...

As for GTR stock, there will be plans for rollingstock and easier with more common fleets. 379s, 387s and 377s...

 

[bramling]

Where do you suggest the 365s go? They're AC only EMUS with dated equipment (some which can case signalling issues and so on...)

I've got a soft spot for Networkers but they're not up to par with modern stock anymore.

About 4-5 years after the last 365 was built, the 375 comes along as is leaps and bounds ahead for passengers...

As for GTR stock, there will be plans for rollingstock and easier with more common fleets. 379s, 387s and 377s...

Without getting too speculative, there were 21x 365 on GN to cover 17x diagrams. These services will return at some point, though of course when that will be is an unknown.

Replace the GN 387/1s with 379s, and this gives 29x Electrostars for Southern. This could be further topped up with the LTS 387s, and quite possibly the 377/5s could be freed up from Southeastern by returning some of the stored 465s to service. All of this should add up to enough units to replace the elderly 313 and 455 fleets.

Being even more creative, with Cambridge to Maidstone looking highly doubtful, you could find use for a further 16x GN diagrams by displacing the 8x 700/0s on the Cambridge stopping service, which wouldn’t go amiss with 700 diagramming having always been quite tight.

17x former GTR diagrams plus a further 16x diagrams adds up to 34 / 40, which is almost just right. It would be necessary to fit bodyside cameras however, and a solution would need to be found for the couple of remaining GN short platforms, but surely this isn’t a major issue for a fleet with 15-20 years life left, versus getting rid of two DC fleets, one of which requires guards.

 

[Bald Rick]

Without getting too speculative, there were 21x 365 on GN to cover 17x diagrams. These services will return at some point, though of course when that will be is an unknown.

A long, long time in the future, if ever.

 

[bramling]

A long, long time in the future, if ever.

Notwithstanding the driver issues, for how long will it be politically tenable to continue without any peak extras? There’s already moaning locally about overcrowding on London peak services (which I must say from observation I find a little hard to believe, unless things have changed in the last week or two).

For me the lack of extras is one of the reasons I’m rarely using the train at present.

Going forward, with a new focus on health, I’m not sure the industry is going to be able to get away with planning services based on cramming as many people as possible in. For the time being at least there’s going to be a certain expectation of space. I realise people may well be disappointed on this, but if the industry is serious about getting revenue back then a focus on quality is unavoidable (IMO).

It certainly wouldn’t go down well for people to see potential headlines like “welcome back to the railway, while you’ve been gone we’ve plundered the timetable and scrapped your trains”!

 

[Ianno87]

Notwithstanding the driver issues, for how long will it be politically tenable to continue without any peak extras? There’s already moaning locally about overcrowding on London peak services (which I must say from observation I find a little hard to believe, unless things have changed in the last week or two).

For me the lack of extras is one of the reasons I’m rarely using the train at present.

Going forward, with a new focus on health, I’m not sure the industry is going to be able to get away with planning services based on cramming as many people as possible in. For the time being at least there’s going to be a certain expectation of space. I realise people may well be disappointed on this, but if the industry is serious about getting revenue back then a focus on quality is unavoidable (IMO).

It certainly wouldn’t go down well for people to see potential headlines like “welcome back to the railway, while you’ve been gone we’ve plundered the timetable and scrapped your trains”!

For Royston/Letchworth folk, the peak Ely/King's Lynn fasts are still only 8 car (and about right for current demand) - re-12-car-ing them would come first.

I find it hard to believe that a couple of peak trains missing per hour is a significant factor in deciding to return to the office for more than a handful of people.

 

[delorean1984]

Has the rumour of these going to LNER died off now?

 

[bramling]

For Royston/Letchworth folk, the peak Ely/King's Lynn fasts are still only 8 car (and about right for current demand) - re-12-car-ing them would come first.

I find it hard to believe that a couple of peak trains missing per hour is a significant factor in deciding to return to the office for more than a handful of people.

It’s more significant than you might think. It isn’t so much the fact that it’s a “couple of peak trains”, but the fact that the trains in question start their journey closer in - in particular for the Baldock journeys. People value this because it essentially means more chance of a seat. I know this is one reason why more than one user group is up in arms over the 2022 consultation timetable.

Likewise on the Peterborough route the missing services are the limited-stop ones, another thing people value.

Look at it from the point of view of a Baldock or St Neots commuter. The former had six morning peak services starting there, whilst the latter had a load of morning peak services calling at only two stations between there and London. Ditto both had a range of fast evening services home. Similar for Knebworth and Welwyn North who had fast services, and for Welwyn GC who are missing the 2Yxx services. All now missing, yet of course the season ticket remains the same price.

There’s an increasing amount of social media moaning about this.

 

[59CosG95]

Has the rumour of these going to LNER died off now?

Wait, there was a rumour of 365s to LNER??

This is the first time I've heard that, but clearly the chances of that happening are smaller than our chances of winning Eurovision.