Southeastern to be taken over by OLR

[matt_world2004]

The Daily Telegraph has updated its report

Southeastern refers itself to fraud office after being nationalised

Government will run the franchise's rail services after it failed to repay £25m of taxpayer cash

www.telegraph.co.uk

It seems as though the issue relates to Access Charges for HS1, dating back to 2014, and was picked up during contract negotiations.

It also appears that Go-Ahead referred itself to the Serious Fraud Office

Maybe the government should get transport investigations limited to launch a prosecution under the railway byelaws

 

[Royston Vasey]

Maybe the government should get transport investigations limited to launch a prosecution under the railway byelaws

Post of the day

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Cynics might suggest it is an attempt to get fuel and the Labour conference off the front page.

You'd have to be pretty cynical to think that.

The way the Labour conference has been going, I think if I was a Tory politician I'd be extremely happy for it to get as much press coverage as possible

 

[Glenn1969]

If this is about making sure the DfT gets it's £25m back how come it took them 7 years to notice it was missing and act?

 

[pdeaves]

If this is about making sure the DfT gets it's £25m back how come it took them 7 years to notice it was missing and act?

Presumably, "the wheels of power turn slowly".

 

[JaJaWa]

Maybe the government should get transport investigations limited to launch a prosecution under the railway byelaws

Yes, there is mention of a Railways Act 1993 prosecution

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The Railway Gazette version of this announcement contains the following:
Operator of Last Resort to take over Southeastern after ‘£25m breach of franchise agreement’ | Rail Business UK | Railway Gazette International

DfT said the intention was that the services would be returned to private sector operation through a new Passenger Services Contract, ‘allowing private sector investment and innovation to lead the way in delivering a regional railway that works for its passengers.’

Which implies that there will at some stage be a competition for a private sector operator for the new contract, presumably under GBR control.
OLR is not supposed to be the final solution to franchise woes.

 

[dk1]

Go Ahead share price now over 25% down today

Group has lost over £100m in value

Not their finest hour. My holdings are down 55% on initial purchase price.

 

[WesternLancer]

The last one was the “operator of last resort”.

 

[Dave W]

I'm just imagining the negotiations I wouldn't have with HMRC if my VAT return was "out" by £2,500, (never mind £25,000,000)!

You wouldn't be able to negotiate on VAT owed regardless of whether it was £2.5k or £25m - old Inland Revenue inspectors were able to negotiate on the direct taxes but I don't think that extended to Customs and Excise officers even after the merger to form HMRC - it certainly wasn't something I was allowed to do regardless of the business size. If VAT was owed, it was due - no questions, no excuses. You could argue the liability after the assessment and penalty was raised but that was between the business owner and debt management - the VAT would still be due.

In any case, this isn't VAT. Most TOCs would be in a repayment position due to the majority of their outputs - fares - being zero rated.

 

[fgwrich]

Go Ahead share price now over 25% down today

Group has lost over £100m in value

Could this result in Go Ahead having to divest in some of the bus businesses, Particularly if further financial fines could be coming their way?

With OLR coming in, hopefully they will insist on a better cleaning regime for the SouthEastern fleet - I'm sure there something similar stipulated when OLR took over from Arriva on Northern.

 

[Irascible]

One wonders what sort of ROI decent investment ( in both wages and reach ) into the SFO and the NAO would give...

 

[Mojo]

Another reminder to those discussing what will happen to the future of the franchise, moving certain routes over to TfL control etc., please use the appropriate thread in the Speculative Ideas forum and not this thread.

 

[Shug]

For speculation please use:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/southeastern-to-olr-what-could-happen-next.222795

There is only one other Govia franchise, namely GTR, and they are in big legal troubles as it is; see: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/gtr-face-group-litigation-claim-for-unlawfully-limiting-rail-passengers’-rights.220433/

If there are any developments with GTR these should be posted in a separate thread to this one though.

Don’t go via also run Southern and great northern?

 

[dk1]

Don’t go via also run Southern and great northern?

Yes, GTR is GoVia Thameslink Railway that incorporates both those.

 

[Ianno87]

Don’t go via also run Southern and great northern?

GTR is a single franchise that covers all of Thameslink, Southern, Gatwick Express and Great Northern (which are just brands, not individual franchsies)

 

[Shug]

Yes, GTR is GoVia Thameslink Railway that incorporates both those.

Interesting, although under the go ahead umbrella I thought they were separate franchises

 

[ExRes]

Political parties have been known to change their policies from time to time.

Also, whatever you think about the franchise model, with some obvious exceptions, they ran reasonably well under Labour. Where they didn't, they were transferred to a management contract, or the franchise was removed from the holders. And frankly they had other fish to fry - Railtrack's collapse, sorting out the WCML upgrade, Thameslink, Crossrail, HS1 etc.

That's not good enough though is it? they screamed, shouted and promised prior to 1997 and they've screamed, shouted and promised since 2010, when they had 13 years of power they did nothing to disassemble the mess

 

[Socanxdis]

I thought the franchise system had ended last year and Govia like everyone else was simply on a management contract?

 

[Dai Corner]

I thought the franchise system had ended last year and Govia like everyone else was simply on a management contract?

That's right.

As discussed upthread, Southeastern's ends on 16 October and the DfT could have extended it until next March but decided not to.

 

[mmh]

Political parties have been known to change their policies from time to time.

Also, whatever you think about the franchise model, with some obvious exceptions, they ran reasonably well under Labour. Where they didn't, they were transferred to a management contract, or the franchise was removed from the holders. And frankly they had other fish to fry - Railtrack's collapse, sorting out the WCML upgrade, Thameslink, Crossrail, HS1 etc.

Which were transferred to a management contract?

 

[thenorthern]

Given that stripping National Express of the East Coast Franchise marked the beginning of the end of their train operations in this country and Stripping Connex of their franchises ended their train operation in this country it will be interesting to see what happens to Govia.

 

[dk1]

Given that stripping National Express of the East Coast Franchise marked the beginning of the end of their train operations in this country and Stripping Connex of their franchises ended their train operation in this country it will be interesting to see what happens to Govia.

Wasn’t it a conscious decision from National Express that they where pulling out of the UK rail franchising anyway?

 

[thenorthern]

Wasn’t it a conscious decision from National Express that they where pulling out of the UK rail franchising anyway?

I think they lost their pre-qualified status. They did however retain the Essex Thameside franchise in 2014.

 

[dk1]

I think they lost their pre-qualified status. They did however retain the Essex Thameside franchise in 2014.

Remember them quoting about getting out of the UK & only sticking with rail in Europe. They where no loss as far as I was concerned.

 

[ScotGG]

I really hope “investing in passenger improvements on the existing fleet of trains” actually means something tangible.

Probably the £10m on 375s already announced.

Of course what everyone and their dog knows is it's most of the 465s that need the attention.

 

[ComUtoR]

Of course what everyone and their dog knows is it's most of the 465s that need the attention.

465s need to be set on fire and the ashes scattered to the four winds.

 

[JonathanH]

465s need to be set on fire and the ashes scattered to the four winds.

I'm sure their replacements will be just as unloved within five years of entering service.

Why is there such a contrast between people's views of 365s and 465s on this forum? I just don't understand the hate for the 465s.

 

[bramling]

I'm sure their replacements will be just as unloved within five years of entering service.

Why is there such a contrast between people's views of 365s and 465s on this forum? I just don't understand the hate for the 465s.

The 465s form part of a package - unkempt stations and unkempt trains.

By contrast the 365s have tended to be fairly well looked after, and to be fair haven’t had quite the level of vandalism the SE metro gets. The 365 also had some tweaks to the interior (from new, not the “dumbing down” 2010s refurbishment) which made them a bit brighter and more spacious.

That said, I like the 465s, and do think they get a bit of a bad press on here.

 

[bicbasher]

So Southeastern didn't lose their franchise because of shocking staffing levels at SE London Metro stations or unloved Networkers, but for financial irregularity? That says it all when the Government are only interested in the finances.

Incidentally, will the current arrangement that Southeastern crew the the Southern Redhill-Tonbridge shuttles with Southern units continue?