SWR Class 458 to be retained

[swt_passenger]

I have been reliably informed that 458507 & 458517 have come off lease and will be the 1st units to go for reconversation at Widnes.

Why would they need to “come off lease”? That wouldn’t be normal if they’re staying in use with the same TOC surely?

 

[spark001uk]

Maybe there are sufficient alterations that the old units need to be un-leased and then re-leased under their new subclass?

 

[Roast Veg]

Maybe there are sufficient alterations that the old units need to be un-leased and then re-leased under their new subclass?

Quite a good idea for the TOC too, since they don't have to pay for units they can't use...

 

[Siemens Staines]

458501 is back in service today for the first time since early August.

Realtime Trains - 2C20 0808 Reading to London Waterloo

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Snow1964]

Why would they need to “come off lease”? That wouldn’t be normal if they’re staying in use with the same TOC surely?

Maybe the leasing company didn’t want to extend the lease at existing rates. It’s their train and they don’t have to allow the modifications to take place, so perhaps they used this to agree a better deal for themselves. Probably want to charge as much (or more) for the 4 car versions as current 5 car. They might even have sold them on to another finance company.

Might not have been the TOCs preference to end current lease, but if they didn’t, were stuck with paying for whole fleet in current configuration.

 

[capitalconnect]

To clarify is the plan to get rid of all of the 460 coaches? So the middle coaches in all of the original 30 units and all of the 6 new units will be scrapped? So the 458 trains will just go back to their original formations?

 

[swt_passenger]

To clarify is the plan to get rid of all of the 460 coaches? So the middle coaches in all of the original 30 units and all of the 6 new units will be scrapped? So the 458 trains will just go back to their original formations?

Seems probable, and they’re supposedly only keeping 28 x 4 car units as mentioned earlier in the thread.

 

[D365]

To clarify is the plan to get rid of all of the 460 coaches? So the middle coaches in all of the original 30 units and all of the 6 new units will be scrapped? So the 458 trains will just go back to their original formations?

There hasn’t been any public statement as to the destination/future of the remaining coaches.

 

[spark001uk]

I wonder if they'll go back to 80xx, or whether they'll get a new subclass?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I wonder if they'll go back to 80xx, or whether they'll get a new subclass?

It would make sense for them to go back to /0, because if they remove the 460 cars, that is exactly what they will be - 458/0s but with a gangway and refurbished. And adding a gangway and a refurbishment is not grounds for a new subclass.

 

[43096]

To clarify is the plan to get rid of all of the 460 coaches? So the middle coaches in all of the original 30 units and all of the 6 new units will be scrapped? So the 458 trains will just go back to their original formations?

The only vehicle they can remove is the ex-460 trailer. The other two middle cars are a) a motor car (which you don't want to remove as it removes 1/3 of the motors) and b) the vehicle with PRM toilet and wheelchair spaces (which can't be removed).

I suspect the ex-460 cars in 458501-530 will go for scrap as there's not much point in holding on to them. The 8 surplus units (2 of 458501-530 and 458531-536) may well get stored at Long Marston: I think there was wording in the original announcement that SWR would have the option on more sets if demand warranted it.

 

[Techniquest]

I wonder if they'll go back to 80xx, or whether they'll get a new subclass?

Personally I'm hoping for a new sub-class, just because I don't want to have to try and find which of them I had as /0s Too many old, old trip reports to look through for any that might be mentioned!

It will be interesting to see how they are after all the modifications etc, and a ride down the PDL could be fun!

 

[jackot]

The 458’s always looked a bit odd with mismatching windows thanks to the 460. It would make some sense to remove these coaches, especially as they are making them 4-car. I still slightly doubt their suitability.

 

[WarrenTManager]

The only vehicle they can remove is the ex-460 trailer. The other two middle cars are a) a motor car (which you don't want to remove as it removes 1/3 of the motors) and b) the vehicle with PRM toilet and wheelchair spaces (which can't be removed).

I suspect the ex-460 cars in 458501-530 will go for scrap as there's not much point in holding on to them. The 8 surplus units (2 of 458501-530 and 458531-536) may well get stored at Long Marston: I think there was wording in the original announcement that SWR would have the option on more sets if demand warranted it.

The 741xx vehicle aka BL also has the compressor as well as the third pair of motors.

458529-36 are the units not retained.

 

[43096]

The 741xx vehicle aka BL also has the compressor as well as the third pair of motors.

And, thinking about it some more, it also has the second toilet.

458529-36 are the units not retained.

Thanks. I did wonder if 501 and 502 might have been the ones rejected given their history of being a bit non-standard.

 

[Benno]

I have been reliably informed that 458507 & 458517 have come off lease and will be the 1st units to go for reconversation at Widnes.

They have indeed, they came off lease on 30th September.

The remaining 458/5s will start to come off lease in mid November at two units each week with the last units coming off lease early March 2022. They will then be stored until required to go to Widnes for refurbishment

Why would they need to “come off lease”? That wouldn’t be normal if they’re staying in use with the same TOC surely?

They are different leases. The 458/5s were coming off lease regardless as they were initially not part of SWR's plans along with the 455s and 456s. Once refurbished they will then return to SWR under a new lease.

There hasn’t been any public statement as to the destination/future of the remaining coaches.

The remaining complete spare units will be retained for three years in warm storage as this is the time period that SWR have to decide whether they want to take the additional eight units or not. The spare coaches will be stored for a while, likely stripped for some spares, then scrapped.

 

[43096]

They have indeed, they came off lease on 30th September.

The remaining 458/5s will start to come off lease in mid November at two units each week with the last units coming off lease early March 2022. They will then be stored until required to go to Widnes for refurbishment

They are different leases. The 458/5s were coming off lease regardless as they were initially not part of SWR's plans along with the 455s and 456s. Once refurbished they will then return to SWR under a new lease.

There is presumably a big if on Aventra introduction. Even with the reduced timetable operating, can SWR release 58 x 5-car units (being the 707s and the 458s) with no 701s in service?

 

[JonathanH]

The spare coaches will be stored for a while, likely stripped for some spares, then scrapped.

Given the history of corrosion on these and other contemporary Alstom rolling stock it seems a little surprising there isn't some consideration of keeping the vehicles in best condition.

 

[43102EMR]

Why would they need to “come off lease”? That wouldn’t be normal if they’re staying in use with the same TOC surely?

It’ll be under a new lease rather than off-lease - terms etc. would’ve changed so the current lease terms will in effect be terminated or renegotiated…

 

[Benno]

There is presumably a big if on Aventra introduction. Even with the reduced timetable operating, can SWR release 58 x 5-car units (being the 707s and the 458s) with no 701s in service?

It's a big ask to release 58 units, even with reduced demand at the moment. Also remember the 455 / 456 fleet is reduced slightly at the moment with several units out of service. Either SWR are confident that the 701s will start entering service, or those handback dates will slip. 8507 & 8517 pretty much stopped themselves running out of heavy maintenance miles, but with the exception of one more 458, the rest of the fleet can go on a bit longer.

Given the history of corrosion on these and other contemporary Alstom rolling stock it seems a little surprising there isn't some consideration of keeping the vehicles in best condition.

All bodywork issues were addressed when they were converted to 5 car units. That was from the period 2014 - 2016 and the paintwork is still in pretty good condition.

 

[43096]

It's a big ask to release 58 units, even with reduced demand at the moment. Also remember the 455 / 456 fleet is reduced slightly at the moment with several units out of service. Either SWR are confident that the 701s will start entering service, or those handback dates will slip. 8507 & 8517 pretty much stopped themselves running out of heavy maintenance miles, but with the exception of one more 458, the rest of the fleet can go on a bit longer.

Given that no 701s have been accepted yet that I know of and no crew training has started, there isn't a cat in hell's chance of them being in place by November to start releasing 458s. The only way I could see them keeping to the 458 timetable in any way would be to keep the 458s on lease for their current duties and as two or three units come back from Widnes, they displace a similar number of 450s to the Windsor lines to free up the next 458s for conversion. Obviously you need a pool of units to start that process.

Presumably the 8 458s not required for conversion can be kept on indefinitely to cover the 701s. It would also help if Wimbledon extracted their digits and started fixing the various demic 455/456/458 units they have around the place. With the slack in the fleet with the reduced timetables they've been able to get away with having them stood: that needs to change with all the units due to go elsewhere.

 

[DelW]

It would make sense for them to go back to /0, because if they remove the 460 cars, that is exactly what they will be - 458/0s but with a gangway and refurbished. And adding a gangway and a refurbishment is not grounds for a new subclass.

The original 458s did have gangways, albeit of a rather impractical fold-away type. They were deployed when the units ran in multiple, but sets could only be joined or split at depots.

 

[5920]

It would also help if Wimbledon extracted their digits and started fixing the various demic 455/456/458 units they have around the place. With the slack in the fleet with the reduced timetables they've been able to get away with having them stood: that needs to change with all the units due to go elsewhere.

With what spares. That’s why most are laid up. Then the depot are busting a gut to keep the ones that are running in traffic meaning the long players stay on the sidelines gradually losing even more parts.

 

[capitalconnect]

Is there any news on whether the refurbishment will include DOO modifications? Such as maybe adding cameras etc? I know that SWR are planning DOO on most of their trains (with the driver opening and closing the doors but a second member of staff still guaranteed onboard) so just wondering if they will perhaps do these modifications at the same time they refurbish them and arrange them back in to four car units?

 

[Wolfie]

Given the history of corrosion on these and other contemporary Alstom rolling stock it seems a little surprising there isn't some consideration of keeping the vehicles in best condition.

That would appear sensible.

 

[K.o.R]

Will the trip to Widnes also include a new paint job? I am interested to see what SWR colours will look like on these units.

 

[fgwrich]

Given that no 701s have been accepted yet that I know of and no crew training has started, there isn't a cat in hell's chance of them being in place by November to start releasing 458s. The only way I could see them keeping to the 458 timetable in any way would be to keep the 458s on lease for their current duties and as two or three units come back from Widnes, they displace a similar number of 450s to the Windsor lines to free up the next 458s for conversion. Obviously you need a pool of units to start that process.

Presumably the 8 458s not required for conversion can be kept on indefinitely to cover the 701s. It would also help if Wimbledon extracted their digits and started fixing the various demic 455/456/458 units they have around the place. With the slack in the fleet with the reduced timetables they've been able to get away with having them stood: that needs to change with all the units due to go elsewhere.

I cant see any 701s entering traffic any time soon either. I'm led to believe they are still awaiting another large software update, and clearly about to undergo more maintenance - passing Eastleigh Works on the Portsmouth line last week, there was a noticeable stack of new Air Con units lined up presumably ready to be installed onto whichever 701 is currently in the works at the moment.

Keeping a number of vehicles in case of corrosion does seem a sensible idea - particularly given the situation with their Cordia cousins at the moment.

Will the trip to Widnes also include a new paint job? I am interested to see what SWR colours will look like on these units.

Yes - They will be receiving the SWR Brand as part of the conversion / refurb.

 

[TEW]

Why would they need to “come off lease”? That wouldn’t be normal if they’re staying in use with the same TOC surely?

Latest I had seen suggested 2024 for 458 reintroduction so that would suggest a fair period when they won't be in use by SWR, so probably makes sense that they are off lease.

 

[swt_passenger]

Latest I had seen suggested 2024 for 458 reintroduction so that would suggest a fair period when they won't be in use by SWR, so probably makes sense that they are off lease.

Oh right I hadn’t realised there’d possibly be a period without them.

 

[Wolfie]

Latest I had seen suggested 2024 for 458 reintroduction so that would suggest a fair period when they won't be in use by SWR, so probably makes sense that they are off lease.

That is one heck of a time gap.