SWR Class 458 to be retained

[TEW]

Oh right I hadn’t realised there’d possibly be a period without them.

I'm not sure if that was always the plan or if it has been revised with the reduced level of service planned to continue for a while yet. The proposed December 2022 timetable wouldn't require 458s.

 

[Chiltern006]

Latest I had seen suggested 2024 for 458 reintroduction so that would suggest a fair period when they won't be in use by SWR, so probably makes sense that they are off lease.

and by then the franchise will be up so...

 

[43096]

That is one heck of a time gap.

Perhaps that's when they expect the Aventras to be fit for service, so the 458s stay as they are until then.


Tongue firmly in cheek, I should say!

 

[Goldfish62]

and by then the franchise will be up so...

There is no franchise. The franchise was terminated early in March this year when a new two-year (extendable up to another two years) National Rail Contract commenced. The obligations under this contract appear to be a bit of a state secret (literally!).

 

[Chiltern006]

ohh aha. my mistake

 

[Benno]

504/506/514/515 are the four I haven't had this year. I think you may be right with 504, I haven't even seen it this year. 535 has been dumped in Clapham Yard for months.

I doubt you will se 458504 out again in its current formation. It's currently sat at Wimbledon, split and missing a great number of parts. I think 458504 is low on C4 miles as well. I suspect it will be put back together and then shipped off to Widnes to refurb.

Presumably the 8 458s not required for conversion can be kept on indefinitely to cover the 701s. It would also help if Wimbledon extracted their digits and started fixing the various demic 455/456/458 units they have around the place. With the slack in the fleet with the reduced timetables they've been able to get away with having them stood: that needs to change with all the units due to go elsewhere.

The eight 458s that are not part of the refurbishment programme (which include the 6 ex class 460 conversions) will be the last to be withdrawn as they have the most miles left to C4 exam. There is a possibility that they could be kept on until they run out of miles, dependant on other unit availability.

Latest I had seen suggested 2024 for 458 reintroduction so that would suggest a fair period when they won't be in use by SWR, so probably makes sense that they are off lease.

That was certainly the initial plan, however as mentioned class 701 introduction isn't exactly going well.

The first 458s to enter refurbishment will go to Widnes in December and once released will head back to SWR for use.

 

[DelW]

The first 458s to enter refurbishment will go to Widnes in December and once released will head back to SWR for use.

Are you able to say whether the refurbished units will go back onto Reading and Windsor services, or will go straight to what I think will be their permanent home on the Direct?

(I'm assuming that they are still intended to fulfil the 442s' intended role there, releasing 450s for use elsewhere).

 

[Benno]

Are you able to say whether the refurbished units will go back onto Reading and Windsor services, or will go straight to what I think will be their permanent home on the Direct?

(I'm assuming that they are still intended to fulfil the 442s' intended role there, releasing 450s for use elsewhere).

All I know is that on their return they will be based out of their new home depot at Bournemouth. The depot will need to gain knowledge on the units but if they can then release 450s off the Portsmouth route, then I suspect that would be the preferable plan.

 

[DelW]

All I know is that on their return they will be based out of their new home depot at Bournemouth. The depot will need to gain knowledge on the units but if they can then release 450s off the Portsmouth route, then I suspect that would be the preferable plan.

Thanks, I'll keep an eye out for any appearances of them on the Direct in the new year .

 

[Benno]

The remaining 458/5s will start to come off lease in mid November at two units each week with the last units coming off lease early March 2022. They will then be stored until required to go to Widnes for refurbishment

Not surprisingly there has been a change of plan. There will be one more 458 to come off lease before the end of the year due to low C4 miles then no further withdrawals until half way through 2022.

 

[Goldfish62]

Not surprisingly there has been a change of plan. There will be one more 458 to come off lease before the end of the year due to low C4 miles then no further withdrawals until half way through 2022.

Not surprised at all. With the 458/5s and 707s gone there'd have surely been a massive rolling stock shortage for SWR.

 

[Juniper Driver]

Not surprised at all. With the 458/5s and 707s gone there'd have surely been a massive rolling stock shortage for SWR.

Plus the amount of 455's missing.

 

[Indieman]

Unless proper vestibules are installed for all of the doors and something generally miraculous occurs during refurb with cabin quality, toilet facilities and insulation of every type, this plan (removing the 444s from fast trains and replacing with 458s) is going to go down like a cup of cold sick with those who use the line when they realise what is coming.

It's a downgrade from 444s in almost every imaginable sense.

 

[Juniper Driver]

….and they were a downgrade from the 442's.

 

[py_megapixel]

Unless proper vestibules are installed for all of the doors and something generally miraculous occurs during refurb with cabin quality, toilet facilities and insulation of every type, this plan (removing the 444s from fast trains and replacing with 458s) is going to go down like a cup of cold sick with those who use the line when they realise what is coming.

It's a downgrade from 444s in almost every imaginable sense.

Isn't the point that it will be an upgrade over the 450s, though?

….and they were a downgrade from the 442's.

No they weren't. At least not as a passenger.

 

[43102EMR]

Isn't the point that it will be an upgrade over the 450s, though?


No they weren't. At least not as a passenger.

Anything that doesn’t have 2+3 seating is considered an upgrade over a 450 in all honesty

 

[Indieman]

Isn't the point that it will be an upgrade over the 450s, though

450s probably account for 30% ish of fast services on the line now following various rejigs over the years. Certainly removing them from those remaining fast services has been a prominent wish of users of the line.

I think that was to be achieved by having 442s run all fast services, replacing the 444s and 450s. That would have been fine, albeit imperfect given door width and the age of the 442 stock. But certainly properly insulated 2+2 cabins on all services would have been an acceptable quid pro quo for the loss of the 444s, which everyone likes.

The new solution seems rather less agreeable. Materially diminishing the passenger experience, compared with the current 444 services will no doubt keep inboxes of the likes of Jeremy Hunt and the Penny Mordunt busier than they would like

 

[DelW]

My recollection (which might be faulty!) is that the problem goes right back to SWT's replacement of the slammers in around 2004-5. Having replaced the CIGs and BEPs on Portsmouth via the Direct services with 444s, which were well liked, SWT then decided to put the main line's 442s off lease. Instead of replacing them with 444s like-for-like, they instead ordered additional 450s (there were reasons for that at the time). Therefore most of the 444s were taken back off the Direct to run the main line, and Portsmouth services had unsuitable suburban stock dumped on them instead. It's been a source of much complaint ever since, not helped by SWR's "this year, next year, sometime, never" approach to dealing with it.

 

[Western Sunset]

There's a couple of 701s at BM depot at the moment. Perhaps they'll replace the 444s, so Portsmouth citizens can get the trains they want

 

[swt_passenger]

My recollection (which might be faulty!) is that the problem goes right back to SWT's replacement of the slammers in around 2004-5. Having replaced the CIGs and BEPs on Portsmouth via the Direct services with 444s, which were well liked, SWT then decided to put the main line's 442s off lease. Instead of replacing them with 444s like-for-like, they instead ordered additional 450s (there were reasons for that at the time). Therefore most of the 444s were taken back off the Direct to run the main line, and Portsmouth services had unsuitable suburban stock dumped on them instead. It's been a source of much complaint ever since, not helped by SWR's "this year, next year, sometime, never" approach to dealing with it.

AIUI in the 2006/7 changes the 442s were indirectly replaced by keeping the 458s, which had initially been going off lease. The additional 450s (17 of them) were a separate order that coincided with, but wasn’t specifically for 442 replacement.

I also suggest SWT never intended to do anything -between 2007 and 2017 the DfT had insisted on seat numbers on the route in the peak flow direction that could only ever be met with 12.450s. SWR‘s solution was supposed to have included significant numbers of extra trains in the peaks, that as it turned out have never happened.

 

[DelW]

AIUI in the 2006/7 changes the 442s were indirectly replaced by keeping the 458s, which had initially been going off lease. The additional 450s (17 of them) were a separate order that coincided with, but wasn’t specifically for 442 replacement.

I also suggest SWT never intended to do anything -between 2007 and 2017 the DfT had insisted on seat numbers on the route in the peak flow direction that could only ever be met with 12.450s. SWR‘s solution was supposed to have included significant numbers of extra trains in the peaks, that as it turned out have never happened.

I'm sure you're right about the retention of the 458s, I'd forgotten that there had been a plan to ditch them. But the overall effect of that, off-leasing the Wessexes, and acquiring extra 450s, was to produce a shortage of mainline stock and a surplus of outer-suburbans. Whether the presence of 12.450 sets on the Portsmouth services was a result of that, or of DfT policy, or both, the outcome was unsatisfactory for many non-commuter users. It doesn't seem to have all been the fault of DfT, since a few years ago (pre-covid) almost all weekend services to Portsmouth via the Direct were 450s, despite rarely needing the increased number of seats, since middle seats were rarely used off-peak. Since then I think 444s have become more frequent at weekends, but are far from universal. Oddly, though purely anecdotally, on weekdays they seem to turn up quite often on Haslemere terminators.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Oddly, though purely anecdotally, on weekdays they seem to turn up quite often on Haslemere terminators.

The Haslemere terminators on weekdays are class 1 trains (the second Pompey fast service terminated short) which interwork with the other class 1 Pompey service so by keeping 444s on the Pompey fasts unless you have a 66 minute turnaround at Waterloo also end up on the Haslemere terminators.

 

[DelW]

The Haslemere terminators on weekdays are class 1 trains (the second Pompey fast service terminated short) which interwork with the other class 1 Pompey service so by keeping 444s on the Pompey fasts unless you have a 66 minute turnaround at Waterloo also end up on the Haslemere terminators.

Thanks, that makes sense. It does seem odd that the Haslemeres have become fast services, rather than all stations south of Guildford as in normal times, but I suppose it's a consequence of reducing the timetable by just chopping services out it. It's also caused unbalanced spacings (roughly 20/40 south of Haslemere, and 30/15/15 north of it), but I suppose the hope is that it'll be restored to a 3+1 tph timetable eventually.

 

[TXMISTA]

Anything that doesn’t have 2+3 seating is considered an upgrade over a 450 in all honesty

455s, 456s and the current 458s are definitely a downgrade from a 450 if you ask me

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unless proper vestibules are installed for all of the doors and something generally miraculous occurs during refurb with cabin quality, toilet facilities and insulation of every type, this plan (removing the 444s from fast trains and replacing with 458s) is going to go down like a cup of cold sick with those who use the line when they realise what is coming.

It's a downgrade from 444s in almost every imaginable sense.

Why should Portsmouth have end doored units when Northampton doesn't? The type of service is near enough identical. 350/1s would be perfect, and these are effectively the same thing.

2+2 seating is what it's about, not where the doors are.

 

[Wolfie]

Why should Portsmouth have end doored units when Northampton doesn't? The type of service is near enough identical. 350/1s would be perfect, and these are effectively the same thing.

2+2 seating is what it's about, not where the doors are.

Absolutely, similarly Corby (which also currently has 3+2).

 

[southern442]

There's a couple of 701s at BM depot at the moment. Perhaps they'll replace the 444s, so Portsmouth citizens can get the trains they want

Why are these the trains that they want? They are arguably even more unsuitable than the 450s

 

[swt_passenger]

Why should Portsmouth have end doored units when Northampton doesn't? The type of service is near enough identical. 350/1s would be perfect, and these are effectively the same thing.

2+2 seating is what it's about, not where the doors are.

You don’t even need to go as far as Northampton, Southern’s entire fleet has doors at thirds, and operates a longer route to Portsmouth which doesn’t seem to get constant criticism…

 

[Bletchleyite]

You don’t even need to go as far as Northampton, Southern’s entire fleet has doors at thirds, and operates a longer route to Portsmouth which doesn’t seem to get constant criticism…

Even the Southeastern Javelins have doors at thirds! They are basically, in terms of passenger environment, souped up 350/1s (though they quirkily look a bit like PEPs with pointy noses due to the end taper).

This is really a total non-issue. I can see an issue with doors at thirds on the West Highland Line in January. I really can't in the hugely more temperate South East.

 

[JonathanH]

You don’t even need to go as far as Northampton, Southern’s entire fleet has doors at thirds, and operates a longer route to Portsmouth which doesn’t seem to get constant criticism…

To some extent though, the 'Portsmouth Direct' is seen as a premier route whereas the Arun Valley isn't. No one appears to expect the Arun Valley trains to have an 'Intercity' feel whereas the passengers on the Portsmouth line consider themselves worthy of identical treatment to the Southampton / Bournemouth route.