Collision and derailment near Salisbury (Fisherton Tunnel) 31/10/21

[JamesT]

Do you have a link. The article I am reading says minor injuries. ( https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-59116800 )

BBC also reporting "We know both trains weren't going too fast" but does not cite a source.

Martin Frobisher, Network Rail's safety and engineering director, said it was too early to say what had caused the collision and they were "hugely relieved" no-one was seriously injured.
He said they could not say if the first train hitting an object caused the collision.

It was on the broadcast, presumably will be in https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001180g when that is uploaded.

 

[norbitonflyer]

It is possible and newer systems than that at Salisbury (the control system rather than the interlocking as I understand it) detect a track circuit occupying or clearing out of sequence. I don't know whether it puts signals back to danger though.

It didn't happen at Clapham Junction in 1988. In that incident a false feed to a track circuit allowed trains to briefly disappear from the system, allowing the signals protecting that section to clear, reverting to red as the train reached the overlap circuit beyond. Until one driver saw the signal go from yellow to red in front of him and stopped at the next signal to report it - unbeknown to him meaning his train was standing in the unprotected section. Had there been an "out of sequence" alert this would have been spotted as soon as trains started running that morning, insteadof not beiung noticed until trains were close enough together that they were running on double- yellows

I’m confused, I don’t think that train is actually involved in the incident. If it’s the rear cab of the incident train it’s likely to be on the other track surely?

It is the rear cab, but the perspective is a bit confusing. The view is taken from the track approaching from the south (Southampton) direction, but the train has approached the junction from the right (out of shot), and is standing on the diamond crossing, where trains from the London direction cross the path of trains heading for Southampton.

 

[357]

Salisbury train crash: Driver suffers 'life-changing injuries'

Passengers describe being thrown from their seats when two trains collided in Salisbury, Wiltshire.

www.bbc.co.uk

The driver of one of two trains involved in a collision has suffered injuries believed to be "life-changing", police have said.
British Transport Police said he was in hospital in a stable condition following the collision in Salisbury.
A total of 14 people were taken to hospital to be treated for minor injures and two of those remain there, along with the driver.
British Transport Police (BTP) said "a number of people" were injured in the incident, which occurred at Fisherton Tunnel close to London Road in the city.
The fire service said they evacuated about 100 people, with the driver later released from his cab with injuries that were not believed to be serious, sources confirmed to the Press Association news agency.

 

[geoffk]

On the Exeter Side of Salisbury are 159106+108 in a pair and 011+015 in a pair

I'm in Exeter and saw that trains were running only to Gillingham; presumably not enough SWR units west of Salisbury to run beyond. GWR is running Cardiff - Salisbury. I could understand a derailed train coming to rest foul of the other running line, then a train already in section coming the other way being unable to stop before hitting it, but the rear-end collision suggests a longer investigation will be needed. Let's hope the driver's injuries are not as serious as has been suggested.

 

[BrianW]

Thoughts and prayers for all involved.

The BBC picture https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-59116800 and others, seem to show the GWR train as having not cleared the points?

 

[Devonish]

Daily Telegraph have posted an update:
- Train 1 didn't hit an object and derail
- Both trains travelling in same direction, train 2 crashed into side of train 1 in the tunnel
- Driver left with 'life-changing' injuries
- Total of 44 people assessed for injuries
https://t.co/KwGShGNR19?amp=1

 

[paul1609]

1. If Clapham yard has no fuelling facilities for 158/159 DMUs, is Stewarts Lane or Selhurst a possibility?
2. 158's and 159's are much the same, apart from paint. Could one good unit be made out of the two damaged ones?

As well as 171s Selhurst can and has refuelled 165/66s in the past and the line from Redhill to Selhurst was specifically cleared to allow this. Not sure about clearance for 158/9s to Selhurst but 171s are cleared to Ealing Broadway via the West London Line

 

[moley]

Journo's playing with stor

Daily Telegraph have posted an update:
- Train 1 didn't hit an object and derail
- Both trains travelling in same direction, train 2 crashed into side of train 1 in the tunnel
- Driver left with 'life-changing' injuries
- Total of 44 people assessed for injuries
https://t.co/KwGShGNR19?amp=1

Point two "in the tunnel" can't be right based on where the trains have ended. Journo's playing with stories they don't understand.

 

[Devonish]

Journo's playing with stor

Point two "in the tunnel" can't be right based on where the trains have ended. Journo's playing with stories they don't understand.

It is taken from the BTP statement: https://www.btp.police.uk/news/btp/...nt-at-fisherton-tunnel-salisbury---statement/

 

[Flange Squeal]

The BTP statement can be found at: https://www.btp.police.uk/news/btp/...nt-at-fisherton-tunnel-salisbury---statement/

Note the quote towards the bottom stating there is nothing to suggest the train struck an object, and no significant delay between the collision and derailment.

British Transport Police detectives have begun an investigation into a train collision in Salisbury, Wiltshire last night (31 October).



At around 6.45pm, a Great Western Railway service from Southampton to Cardiff collided with a South Western Railway service from London to Honiton as they both entered the Fisherton Tunnel in Salisbury.



Both trains were travelling in the same direction and one train struck the side of the other, causing it to derail whilst in the tunnel. The front few carriages remained upright while the back tipped on their side.



92 passengers were on both train services. Around thirty people attended a casualty centre which was set up in a nearby church, the majority of who were walking wounded and assessed at the scene.



Thirteen people were taken to hospital by ambulance where they have received treatment for minor injuries. One remains there.



Unfortunately, the driver of the train was more seriously injured and his injuries are believed to be life-changing. He also remains in hospital in a stable condition this morning, and his family have been informed.



We have now moved out of the rescue phase of the operation and into the investigation which will involve the trains remaining in situ for some time. The investigation remains at an early stage but a senior detective has been appointed to lead the enquiries as we work to establish the full circumstances of how this incident came to happen.



Detective Chief Inspector Paul Langley said: “This will no doubt have been an incredibly frightening experience for all those involved and our thoughts are with them and their families today.



“Specialist officers and detectives remain on scene in Salisbury and we are working closely alongside the Rail Accident Investigation Branch (RAIB) and the Office of Rail and Road to establish exactly how these two trains came to collide.



“We are keeping an open mind but at this early stage there has been nothing to suggest the train struck an object or that there was any significant delay between the trains colliding and then one derailing.



“This has been a large scale, multi-agency operation and I would like to pay particular to thanks to our emergency service colleagues for their efforts in safely evacuating passengers, and to the many members of the local community who reached out with offers of help.”

 

[paul1609]

I'm in Exeter and saw that trains were running only to Gillingham; presumably not enough SWR units west of Salisbury to run beyond. GWR is running Cardiff - Salisbury. I could understand a derailed train coming to rest foul of the other running line, then a train already in section coming the other way being unable to stop before hitting it, but the rear-end collision suggests a longer investigation will be needed. Let's hope the driver's injuries are not as serious as has been suggested.

Gillingham has good access to the A303 for replacement road transport to Andover. There may be limited access to Salisbury following the signalling damage/investigation?

 

[james_the_xv]

Journo's playing with stor

Point two "in the tunnel" can't be right based on where the trains have ended. Journo's playing with stories they don't understand.

That is quite a pedantic point, you can’t expect all journalists to be rail experts so they can cover the ~2 major rail incidents a year with 100% accuracy. ’in the tunnel’ is an easily understood deduction to make based off the photos and the BTP statement.

 

[Devonish]

That is quite a pedantic point, you can’t expect all journalists to be rail experts so they can cover the ~2 major rail incidents a year with 100% accuracy. ’in the tunnel’ is an easily understood deduction to make based off the photos and the BTP statement.

BTP even use that exact line about the tunnel: "Both trains were travelling in the same direction and one train struck the side of the other, causing it to derail whilst in the tunnel"

 

[bramling]

It was on the broadcast, presumably will be in https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001180g when that is uploaded.

Fast is open to conjecture. Even something like 30 mph, which most people would regard as fairly low, can be quite nasty in the wrong circumstances. From simply looking at the photos the SWR train seems to have travelled at least 40 metres after the collision, that is more than just a prang.

 

[Bertiethebobby]

Daily Telegraph have posted an update:
- Train 1 didn't hit an object and derail
- Both trains travelling in same direction, train 2 crashed into side of train 1 in the tunnel
- Driver left with 'life-changing' injuries
- Total of 44 people assessed for injuries
https://t.co/KwGShGNR19?amp=1

Well, that's a whole lot different from "train hitting an object in the tunnel and derailing, then second train collided with it"

The Torygraph quotes the BTP as their source, which I think is a bit suspect, you'd think they'd be more circumspect than to speculate, unless it was an off the record BTP officer.

However, it would be a possible explanation (there are others) for only the rear coach of the GWR train to be off the road and also for the 2 trains to be more or less side by side in the tunnel. If that is the case then the thing about "knocking out all the signals in the area" becomes something of a red herring.

 

[Devonish]

Well, that's a whole lot different from "train hitting an object in the tunnel and derailing, then second train collided with it"

The Torygraph quotes the BTP as their source, which I think is a bit suspect, you'd think they'd be more circumspect than to speculate, unless it was an off the record BTP officer.

However, it would be a possible explanation (there are others) for only the rear coach of the GWR train to be off the road and also for the 2 trains to be more or less side by side in the tunnel. If that is the case then the thing about "knocking out all the signals in the area" becomes something of a red herring.Te

The "source" is the official BTP statement as posted and linked to above!

 

[bramling]

BTP even use that exact line about the tunnel: "Both trains were travelling in the same direction and one train struck the side of the other, causing it to derail whilst in the tunnel"

There is a lot of scope for confusion in the early stages of an incident, hence why it’s wise to treat stuff with caution, even from official sources.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Is it possible that the points approaching the tunnel portal moved as the first train moved over them, and so what was "hit" was actually pointwork?

 

[Whistler40145]

Salisbury train crash: Driver suffers 'life-changing injuries'

Passengers describe being thrown from their seats when two trains collided in Salisbury, Wiltshire.

www.bbc.co.uk

The driver of one of two trains involved in a collision has suffered injuries believed to be "life-changing", police have said.
British Transport Police said he was in hospital in a stable condition following the collision in Salisbury.
A total of 14 people were taken to hospital to be treated for minor injures and two of those remain there, along with the driver.
British Transport Police (BTP) said "a number of people" were injured in the incident, which occurred at Fisherton Tunnel close to London Road in the city.
The fire service said they evacuated about 100 people, with the driver later released from his cab with injuries that were not believed to be serious, sources confirmed to the Press Association news agency.

Very sad news indeed

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Let's just wait for the official RAIB report...

 

[TheEdge]

Reading the BTP press release it sounds a bit like they've run into each other on the points at an acute angle rather than a tail end collision. Perhaps, from the way I read it anyway.

 

[Juniper Driver]

"Passengers fearing they were about to die had called loved ones to say goodbye as investigators probe how a busy locomotive was a 'sitting duck' for seven minutes before a second high-speed service smashed into it when signals failed to turn red. "

Eh?

 

[Master29]

Gillingham has good access to the A303 for replacement road transport to Andover. There may be limited access to Salisbury following the signalling damage/investigation?

It's a pretty awful area for Rail replacement transport in general but Gillingham is the best for that very reason. I was unfortunate enough to be on a cancelled Exeter Waterloo service two weeks ago but for weather rather than this tragic incident.

 

[21C101]

I don't think anything further can be assumed than:

The GW train came to a stand with the rear carriage outside the tunnel fouling tunnel junction.

The GW train rear was then struck by the SWR train shortly afterwards and due to the position of the rear of the GW train, rather than a full impact, it sideswiped and was deflected/derailed onto the up side through the tunnel, with the tunnel wall and GW train acting like the side walls of a bobsleigh run to "guide" the SWR train while it came to a stand.

The derailed SWR appeared to progress a considerable distance into the tunnel before stopping.


Anything else, whether illicit reports or early official/semi official statements has to be treated with great caution.

In the meanwhile we should be truly thankful that the GW train wasn't fully in the tunnel (as had it been the SWR train would have full on rammed it) and that there wasn't an up train in the tunnel at the time, otherwise we could have been looking at something akin to Lewisham.

 

[Gloster]

Is it possible that the points approaching the tunnel portal moved as the first train moved over them, and so what was "hit" was actually pointwork?

The points are both trailing ones. The switch diamonds may well have still been set for the Bristol-Portsmouth which had just passed, but, presuming the Portsmouth-Bristol was correctly signalled, the London-Honiton should not have been there. It looks to me as though it is possible (I do not know enough to be certain) that the London may have been deflected towards the other line by the switch diamonds and so did not hit the rear of the Bristol straight on. It also looks as though the rear vehicle of the Bristol was still on the sharp curve coming off the Romsey line, which would also mean that the London did not hit it straight on. It could be either or both or neither, but I do not know definitely.

Note to Mods: there is an element of speculation here, but it is about the course of the accident, not its causes.

 

[JN114]

I don't think anything further can be assumed than:

With respect, I’m not sure much of what you put can be assumed either.

 

[Efini92]

It didn't happen at Clapham Junction in 1988. In that incident a false feed to a track circuit allowed trains to briefly disappear from the system, allowing the signals protecting that section to clear, reverting to red as the train reached the overlap circuit beyond. Until one driver saw the signal go from yellow to red in front of him and stopped at the next signal to report it - unbeknown to him meaning his train was standing in the unprotected section. Had there been an "out of sequence" alert this would have been spotted as soon as trains started running that morning, insteadof not beiung noticed until trains were close enough together that they were running on double- yellows


It is the rear cab, but the perspective is a bit confusing. The view is taken from the track approaching from the south (Southampton) direction, but the train has approached the junction from the right (out of shot), and is standing on the diamond crossing, where trains from the London direction cross the path of trains heading for Southampton.

It’s a sad irony that the one driver that stopped to report it ended up in a collision.

 

[rebmcr]

BTP even use that exact line about the tunnel: "Both trains were travelling in the same direction and one train struck the side of the other, causing it to derail whilst in the tunnel"

Even before this statement was released, I was beginning to have a nagging feeling that the object causing 1F30 to derail might well have been 1L53.

 

[Tomnick]

The switch diamonds may well have still been set for the Bristol-Portsmouth which had just passed...

They're not switch diamonds, so shouldn't have played a part in proceedings. I'd suggest that the fact that the facing points on the Up can be seen to still be set towards Romsey is, though, significant.

 

[87electric]

This was reported widely on social media after that tyrell screenshot appeared. It stated that 1F30 has struck an object in Fisherton Tunnel.

Widely reported does not necessarily mean an actual, factual report.