Southeastern Maidstone - Blackfriars 2022.

[cle]

I understood this semi-fast Maidstone would be calling at Denmark Hill too. Is it not pathable? Would be useful for all the connections there, plus the hospitals. Peckham Rye would be useful too, but it might make sense to focus all the outer stops at Denmark Hill. It's busier than E&C too - not that it's worth missing that either.

 

[30907]

I understood this semi-fast Maidstone would be calling at Denmark Hill too. Is it not pathable?

The down workings look to be very tightly pathed there and at Bromley S, with a Dartford in front and the Gillingham slow right behind.
SE might not want to tie themselves to the Catford Loop either.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Times for those, along with not calling at Denmark Hill, are a bit pants.

 

[brad465]

I understood this semi-fast Maidstone would be calling at Denmark Hill too. Is it not pathable? Would be useful for all the connections there, plus the hospitals. Peckham Rye would be useful too, but it might make sense to focus all the outer stops at Denmark Hill. It's busier than E&C too - not that it's worth missing that either.

Times for those, along with not calling at Denmark Hill, are a bit pants.

There certainly are benefits to a Denmark Hill call, especially if chances are it won't be any quicker given the services might get stuck behind others, but there may also be an argument that for resilience the option of going via Herne Hill remains open by not serving Denmark Hill.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

There certainly are benefits to a Denmark Hill call, especially if chances are it won't be any quicker given the services might get stuck behind others, but there may also be an argument that for resilience the option of going via Herne Hill remains open by not serving Denmark Hill.

The same argument exists for the Gillingham services. When anything goes wrong, they get diverted anyway and miss their Denmark Hill stop.

 

[Ianno87]

Times for those, along with not calling at Denmark Hill, are a bit pants.

The same argument exists for the Gillingham services. When anything goes wrong, they get diverted anyway and miss their Denmark Hill stop.

1) Is Denmark Hill a "peaky" stop, with less demand in the off-peak?

2) The Denmark Hill call could always be added later, once the service is "bedded in".

 

[southern442]

SE shouldn’t be pathing for 100mph stock and then diagramming 75mph stock though.

The service won't touch anywhere near 100mph I wouldn't think, if anything I reckon a 465/9 would do better than an electrostar timimgs-wise on this service.

 

[Horizon22]

1) Is Denmark Hill a "peaky" stop, with less demand in the off-peak?

2) The Denmark Hill call could always be added later, once the service is "bedded in".

Denmark Hill is an incredibly useful stop - it not only allows Overground / TL / other SE connections to places such as Clapham Junction / Lewisham and the East London Lines, you've also got the hospital literally right outside. Obviously the Thameslink example isn't that useful as the service is already going to Blackfriars, but the others are.

1F69 and 1F05 catches up with a Thameslink stopper right before Elephant & Castle. It doesn't seem like a stop is unfeasible as it has 5 minutes of pathing time previously and there's no conflict. Both the Catford Loop and Chatham Main Line are quite congested these days, so perhaps there is something that is an issue.

 

[brad465]

1F69 and 1F05 catches up with a Thameslink stopper right before Elephant & Castle. It doesn't seem like a stop is unfeasible as it has 5 minutes of pathing time previously and there's no conflict. Both the Catford Loop and Chatham Main Line are quite congested these days, so perhaps there is something that is an issue.

I suspect there's not a lot that can be done to improve congestion on these old lines in densely populated suburbs, so much so that I think the original proposal for this new service was done in line with the Chatham Mainline stoppers being withdrawn/reduced off peak, to make space for this new MDE-BFR service. It'll be interesting to see if the original expense move does happen once the trial is complete.

 

[James90012]

Comments in this thread so far have suggested the services should be quicker, and also call at more places - the perennial railway problem. Although in this case i accept the call could be in lieu of pathing time if it all worked out.

However, putting in Denmark Hill calls would be a waste of time if the plan is still to deliver Thameslink to Maidstone. I think there needs to be clarity exactly how long this 'preview' service is expected to be in place for - if it's long term then fine and people can start to plan around it and look at the merits of Denmark Hill

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Comments in this thread so far have suggested the services should be quicker, and also call at more places - the perennial railway problem. Although in this case i accept the call could be in lieu of pathing time if it all worked out.

However, putting in Denmark Hill calls would be a waste of time if the plan is still to deliver Thameslink to Maidstone. I think there needs to be clarity exactly how long this 'preview' service is expected to be in place for - if it's long term then fine and people can start to plan around it and look at the merits of Denmark Hill

Its long term. I too be honest wouldn't be surprised if the Cambridge - Maidstone East service ever happened.

 

[southern442]

Its long term. I too be honest wouldn't be surprised if the Cambridge - Maidstone East service ever happened.

I would agree. Thameslink is very well-connected as it is, and to be honest after the disaster of May 2018 I think people are less excited about the prospect of more cross-city rail.

 

[Ianno87]

I would agree. Thameslink is very well-connected as it is, and to be honest after the disaster of May 2018 I think people are less excited about the prospect of more cross-city rail.

The principle of the Thameslink timetable is fine and sound. It was just the initial execution that was poor due to DfT-instigated changes too late in the day.

 

[Horizon22]

Comments in this thread so far have suggested the services should be quicker, and also call at more places - the perennial railway problem. Although in this case i accept the call could be in lieu of pathing time if it all worked out.

However, putting in Denmark Hill calls would be a waste of time if the plan is still to deliver Thameslink to Maidstone. I think there needs to be clarity exactly how long this 'preview' service is expected to be in place for - if it's long term then fine and people can start to plan around it and look at the merits of Denmark Hill

This may well be why the stop isn't included but, as others have mentioned, there doesn't seem to be any timeframe as to when this will happen with Thameslink. It may be that local user groups should lobby for the Denmark Hill if they find it would be particularly beneficial. It may be that the answer from the powers that be will be "change at Bromley South" but that would take about 15 minutes longer than a direct call.

 

[bramling]

Its long term. I too be honest wouldn't be surprised if the Cambridge - Maidstone East service ever happened.

It does seem to be pretty much dead in the water now. Too many issues getting it to work robustly.

 

[brad465]

Its long term. I too be honest wouldn't be surprised if the Cambridge - Maidstone East service ever happened.

It does seem to be pretty much dead in the water now. Too many issues getting it to work robustly.

Until you each mentioned the service now, I don't think its proposal ever came to my mind in the last year. I was also surprised to see the service that is the subject of this thread getting a mention in the article that led to the thread getting unlocked (suggesting that was long forgotten about too).

 

[4-SUB 4732]

1) Is Denmark Hill a "peaky" stop, with less demand in the off-peak?

2) The Denmark Hill call could always be added later, once the service is "bedded in".

Denmark Hill, I’d suggest, is all day. People going to the hospital may have appointments and/or shift start times all different. It’s also a good link to the Overground.

It does seem to be pretty much dead in the water now. Too many issues getting it to work robustly.

Cambridge to Maidstone is cancelled. It isn’t happening hence the reason this service has been contracted.

 

[cle]

Will anything take its place through the core, in time?

And yes, I’d agree Denmark Hill is probably less peaky than most stations. Hospital appts, visiting hours and shift start/end times are a lot more scattered across a day than typical office hours. And the Overgound is busy all day, plus plenty of school traffic.

But it is definitely busy in the peaks too. And soon with an additional exit which will help distributing walkers v Dulwich/bus railheaders.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Will anything take its place through the core, in time?

And yes, I’d agree Denmark Hill is probably less peaky than most stations. Hospital appts, visiting hours and shift start/end times are a lot more scattered across a day than typical office hours. And the Overgound is busy all day, plus plenty of school traffic.

But it is definitely busy in the peaks too. And soon with an additional exit which will help distributing walkers v Dulwich/bus railheaders.

I strongly suspect the Core will be restricted to 20tph and left at that. Anything that could then be overlaid will be different - Cambridge to Maidstone was a daft idea to start with anyway...

 

[adrock1976]

It does seem to be pretty much dead in the water now. Too many issues getting it to work robustly.

Regarding the Cambridge - Maidstone Thameslink, would these trains have been the ones that call at the 'reth stations, Hitchin, etc?

 

[Ianno87]

Regarding the Cambridge - Maidstone Thameslink, would these trains have been the ones that call at the 'reth stations, Hitchin, etc?

Yes.

 

[cr767055]

From May 2022 (the original start date / time of the new super timetable according to the 2017 Invitation to Tender document), Southeastern will be running a half-hourly Blackfriars to Maidstone East service.

At the same time, the off-peak stopping service to Gillingham / Faversham / Dover ceases to exist, replaced by adding stops into the Ramsgate / Dover “fast” (now much slower) services. Victoria to Ashford stays half-hourly.

Based on capacity available, this means that the new service from Blackfriars to Maidstone is almost certain to run via Catford; one assumes with Denmark Hill stops.

Maidstone East will get a Conductor depot at the same time.

Normally when I travel between Dover Priory and Whitstable (which I do quite often), I get on a Highspeed service marked as "Terminating at Ramsgate", but then the same physical train becomes a London St Pancras Intl service again but starts at Ramsgate going via Chatham and joining back onto HS1 at Ebbsfleet Intl. Since COVID I haven't been able to take that service (instead going via Faversham and changing)- I assume this will mean the return?

 

[bramling]

Regarding the Cambridge - Maidstone Thameslink, would these trains have been the ones that call at the 'reth stations, Hitchin, etc?

Yes it would have been all stations Cambridge to Hatfield, Potters Bar, Finsbury Park and then into the core.

The May 22 proposals have something different for the peaks, something like all stations to Welwyn North and then fast to London, with a separate Letchworth to London service replacing the Baldock starts. From what I gather this hasn’t gone down well locally at all, and the reasons given for changing the pattern are met with cynicism (it seems the real issue is they wish to remove turn backs at Baldock, which are disruptive, and doing it the way proposed assuages moans from Baldock regarding losing its fast services).

Again the tinkering at the GN end would suggest Cambridge-Maidstone is very much in the long grass.

 

[cle]

If the Dover slow (ex-Victoria, calls Denmark Hill) is being replaced by this Blackfriars-Maidstone, both via Catford Loop - what will run out of Victoria in its path?

And will something replace the Victoria-Denmark Hill frequency? I know more via Nunhead have been mentioned (Hayes to Victoria in addition to Dartford/Gravesend via Sidcup) - is that still the plan?

 

[Horizon22]

Normally when I travel between Dover Priory and Whitstable (which I do quite often), I get on a Highspeed service marked as "Terminating at Ramsgate", but then the same physical train becomes a London St Pancras Intl service again but starts at Ramsgate going via Chatham and joining back onto HS1 at Ebbsfleet Intl. Since COVID I haven't been able to take that service (instead going via Faversham and changing)- I assume this will mean the return?

The HS "rounder" service has been removed since Covid. It also doesn't seem to be coming back in December which is a pretty poor high speed offering (1tph via Medway towns).

 

[NorthKent1989]

If the Dover slow (ex-Victoria, calls Denmark Hill) is being replaced by this Blackfriars-Maidstone, both via Catford Loop - what will run out of Victoria in its path?

And will something replace the Victoria-Denmark Hill frequency? I know more via Nunhead have been mentioned (Hayes to Victoria in addition to Dartford/Gravesend via Sidcup) - is that still the plan?

Good question, as the services you’ve mentioned belonged to the 2017 franchise spec which is now redundant from what I hear, the only change to SE in 2022 is the Blackfriars to Maidstone service.

 

[brad465]

If the Dover slow (ex-Victoria, calls Denmark Hill) is being replaced by this Blackfriars-Maidstone, both via Catford Loop - what will run out of Victoria in its path?

And will something replace the Victoria-Denmark Hill frequency? I know more via Nunhead have been mentioned (Hayes to Victoria in addition to Dartford/Gravesend via Sidcup) - is that still the plan?

Good question, as the services you’ve mentioned belonged to the 2017 franchise spec which is now redundant from what I hear, the only change to SE in 2022 is the Blackfriars to Maidstone service.

The original proposal was from memory that the Chatham Mainline stopping service (currently terminating/starting from Gillingham) would be ditched, and the semi-fast services would be made to call at all the stations otherwise missed out. Additional High Speed services via the Medway Towns would ensure the frequency stays up, not that I agree with this initial concept all round.

 

[NorthKent1989]

The original proposal was from memory that the Chatham Mainline stopping service (currently terminating/starting from Gillingham) would be ditched, and the semi-fast services would be made to call at all the stations otherwise missed out. Additional High Speed services via the Medway Towns would ensure the frequency stays up, not that I agree with this initial concept all round.

Thank you, so it’s safe to assume that the Chatham semi fasts to Victoria will still run in 2022 and beyond then?

 

[adrock1976]

If the Dover slow (ex-Victoria, calls Denmark Hill) is being replaced by this Blackfriars-Maidstone, both via Catford Loop - what will run out of Victoria in its path?

And will something replace the Victoria-Denmark Hill frequency? I know more via Nunhead have been mentioned (Hayes to Victoria in addition to Dartford/Gravesend via Sidcup) - is that still the plan?

Good question, as the services you’ve mentioned belonged to the 2017 franchise spec which is now redundant from what I hear, the only change to SE in 2022 is the Blackfriars to Maidstone service.

The original proposal was from memory that the Chatham Mainline stopping service (currently terminating/starting from Gillingham) would be ditched, and the semi-fast services would be made to call at all the stations otherwise missed out. Additional High Speed services via the Medway Towns would ensure the frequency stays up, not that I agree with this initial concept all round.

I'm not sure if I am getting muddled up with something else (south of the Thames is a foreign country to me), but with Blackfriars - Maidstone freeing up the paths at Victoria, would this enable the Victoria - Bellingham short working to run as compensation for when London Overground took over the route via Peckham Rye with trains running to Clapham Junction?

I recall this was mentioned back in 2012, and the Victoria - Bellingham short workings would be introduced after the Thameslink 2000 [sic] project was complete.

 

[JonathanH]

I'm not sure if I am getting muddled up with something else (south of the Thames is a foreign country to me), but with Blackfriars - Maidstone freeing up the paths at Victoria, would this enable the Victoria - Bellingham short working to run as compensation for when London Overground took over the route via Peckham Rye with trains running to Clapham Junction?

That service was reported as not covering its costs and being impractical to run when it was first considered which is why it never happened. It would have no hope now.