Northern Powerhouse Rail (NPR) - Latest plans & speculation

[SuperNova]

Chief political correspondent of the FT now sawing that there WON'T be a high speed line between Leeds and Sheffield, only Birmingham to EMP but NPR will be a new line from Manchester to Huddersfield then upgraded line to Leeds.

Logically, this has always made the most sense. However, it's benefits are somewhat diminished if NPR doesn't connect Manchester - Warrington - Liverpool.

 

[Purple Orange]

Would this new line between Manchester and Huddersfield be without any intermediate stations and what would the average speed be expected to be upon it?

It is unlikely to have any intermediate stations between Manchester & Huddersfield, but my guess on max speed would be for it to be the same as the south manchester line at most. If trains through south manchester are to reach 140 mph before stopping at the airport, they could reach 140 mph before reaching Huddersfield too.

Logically, this has always made the most sense. However, it's benefits are somewhat diminished if NPR doesn't connect Manchester - Warrington - Liverpool.

Yes, hopefully there will be something enabling Liverpool services to connect to it.

 

[Bigman]

So if HS2 isn't happening, they may as well get on with sorting out Leeds to Church Fenton, ie 4 tracking from Selby Road to Thorpe Park and electrification.

 

[Sm5]

If, as he quotes, its a 40 mile long new line from Manchester to near Huddersfield then it's not exactly a direct route.

Its about 40 miles from Manchester to Huddersfield via Glossop and Penistone.

 

[takno]

So if HS2 isn't happening, they may as well get on with sorting out Leeds to Church Fenton, ie 4 tracking from Selby Road to Thorpe Park and electrification.

Sounds like the plan may still be to do that bit of HS2

 

[Roast Veg]

Sounds like the plan may still be to do that bit of HS2

Lack of TRU work south of Church Fenton implies that it's still possible (unlike the work between Huddersfield and Leeds, which it seems likely will be dropped from NPR). Additionally the Church Fenton section of HS2 is critical for NPR, since they plan to use it from a (NPR-scope) connection at Thorpe.

 

[edwin_m]

Its about 40 miles from Manchester to Huddersfield via Glossop and Penistone.

Which is not a sensible route from Manchester to Huddersfield. I suggest the journalist in question has a hazy grip on geography, at least north of Watford.

Lack of TRU work south of Church Fenton implies that it's still possible (unlike the work between Huddersfield and Leeds, which it seems likely will be dropped from NPR). Additionally the Church Fenton section of HS2 is critical for NPR, since they plan to use it from a (NPR-scope) connection at Thorpe.

I really can't see that bit of track being worthwhile for NPR on its own if HS2 isn't using it. Two flying junctions a handful of miles apart don't deliver much capacity or journey time saving. So if the announcement is as is being assumed on this thread then I'd expect electrification and some route enhancement via Micklefield, or (less likely) a NPR route from north of Church Fenton right through to Leeds.

 

[Roast Veg]

I really can't see that bit of track being worthwhile for NPR on its own if HS2 isn't using it. Two flying junctions a handful of miles apart don't deliver much capacity or journey time saving. So if the announcement is as is being assumed on this thread then I'd expect electrification and some route enhancement via Micklefield, or (less likely) a NPR route from north of Church Fenton right through to Leeds.

On closer inspection of the NIC report, neither of the regional options maintains this section. The only reason I believed it was a requirement was because of this image from TfN, which outlined their plan to use it. I put 2 and 2 together and assumed the NIC regional+50% option showed HS2 continuing to use the section to connect the East Midlands and South Yorkshire to York and Newcastle, but that seems to be an intentional omission.

EDIT: It also appears on the WYCA mass transit opportunity map which did the rounds in the press in January shown here.

 

[YorksLad12]

As a sop I understand new line between Manchester and Huddersfield, especially if it doesn't have any stations on it. There are no stations on the new track between Huddersfield and Westtown. The key will be is it a new alignment or just four-tracking. I'm going with the former as there's not enough space to four track - but I'm not going to guess at the route.

 

[Roast Veg]

As a sop I understand new line between Manchester and Huddersfield, especially if it doesn't have any stations on it. There are no stations on the new track between Huddersfield and Westtown. The key will be is it a new alignment or just four-tracking. I'm going with the former as there's not enough space to four track - but I'm not going to guess at the route.

Surely just a rather straight tunnel? But you mean where will it descend/ascend either side of the pennines of course.

 

[YorksLad12]

Surely just a rather straight tunnel? But you mean where will it descend/ascend either side of the pennines of course.

Unless there were aerodynamical reasons to consider I'd go for a very straight tunnel

I looked at Google Maps. You could come out via Ashton-under-Lyne/Guide Bridge/Stalybridge, adding track to the existing railway; tunnel or new railway as far as Meltham; pick up the disused route into Huddersfield just north of Berry Brow. But then someone would want a station stop either side of the Pennines so that, say, you take a fast to Stalybridge and a slow to Mossley rather than a stopper from Huddersfield to Mossley.

It soon gets messy, which is probably why I've avoided most of the speculation and NPR plans. Whatever the outcome, everyone will be disappointed to some extent I reckon.

 

[Roast Veg]

I looked at Google Maps. You could come out via Ashton-under-Lyne/Guide Bridge/Stalybridge, adding track to the existing railway;

Possible, if your tunnel doesn't just go nearly all the way to the Piccadilly high speed platforms.

tunnel or new railway as far as Meltham; pick up the disused route into Huddersfield just north of Berry Brow. But then someone would want a station stop either side of the Pennines so that, say, you take a fast to Stalybridge and a slow to Mossley rather than a stopper from Huddersfield to Mossley.

You wouldn't bother with the disused section - it's likely more trouble than its worth. You'd also need a very serious intervention between there and Huddersfield. Why not just (for example) get under the Colne somewhere near Slaithwaite and then connect to the Transpennine route next to Britannia Road?

 

[greyman42]

Sounds like the plan may still be to do that bit of HS2

So HS2 would come to York?

 

[matacaster]

Suppose the proposed tunnel between Huddersfield and Manchester is bored at a much lower elevation than Standedge, it would make the resultant tunnel flatter. Any idea how much energy / pollution would be saved by freight or passenger trains through having a fairly flat line?

 

[takno]

So HS2 would come to York?

I mean that's the impression I got from various conversations on here. Weren't the plans for the bit East of Leeds updated quite recently, and after work had essentially stopped on other sections?

 

[6Gman]

It soon gets messy, which is probably why I've avoided most of the speculation and NPR plans. Whatever the outcome, everyone will be disappointed to some extent I reckon.

This has always been the biggest issue with the whole idea of NPR - there's no practical solution that can meet the conflicting demands in Yorkshire.

 

[Bald Rick]

Unless there were aerodynamical reasons to consider I'd go for a very straight tunnel

There are many topographical and geographical reasons why it won’t be straight. I’d be surprised if it was more than 125mph.

Suppose the proposed tunnel between Huddersfield and Manchester is bored at a much lower elevation than Standedge, it would make the resultant tunnel flatter. Any idea how much energy / pollution would be saved by freight or passenger trains through having a fairly flat line?

Very little, due to the effects of regen braking.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Unless there were aerodynamical reasons to consider I'd go for a very straight tunnel

I looked at Google Maps. You could come out via Ashton-under-Lyne/Guide Bridge/Stalybridge, adding track to the existing railway; tunnel or new railway as far as Meltham; pick up the disused route into Huddersfield just north of Berry Brow. But then someone would want a station stop either side of the Pennines so that, say, you take a fast to Stalybridge and a slow to Mossley rather than a stopper from Huddersfield to Mossley.

It soon gets messy, which is probably why I've avoided most of the speculation and NPR plans. Whatever the outcome, everyone will be disappointed to some extent I reckon.

You'd struggle to use the former Meltham branch into Huddersfield, not least because it's only disused from the junction with the extant route to Sheffield. Said junction was at Lockwood, on the opposite side of the Holme Valley from Berry Brow. You'd basically have to rip up Meltham Junction to Huddersfield and start again, as you still need capacity for Sheffield services, and Paddock Viaduct isn't in great shape with a 10mph speed restriction for non-MU stock.

I must say, I'm not convinced that routing via Huddersfield is wise or necessary. As much as I like to bang the drum for my home town, I'd rather see a West Yorkshire S-Bahn than an occasional stop (I assume the majority would be fast from Leeds to Manchester) on a high-speed line through difficult (read: expensive) terrain.

 

[Purple Orange]

You'd struggle to use the former Meltham branch into Huddersfield, not least because it's only disused from the junction with the extant route to Sheffield. Said junction is at Lockwood, on the opposite side of the Holme Valley from Berry Brow. You'd basically have to rip up Meltham Junction to Huddersfield and start again, as you still need capacity for Sheffield services, and Paddock Viaduct isn't in great shape with a 10mph speed restriction for non-MU stock.

I must say, I'm not convinced that routing via Huddersfield is wise or necessary. As much as I like to bang the drum for my home town, I'd rather see a West Yorkshire S-Bahn than an occasional stop (I assume the majority would be fast from Leeds to Manchester) on a high-speed line through difficult (read: expensive) terrain.

I would expect to see Huddersfield on the route, but there is nothing wrong with that. Manchester, Huddersfield, Leeds, York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle should be a core intercity route, under 2 hours end-to-end.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I would expect to see Huddersfield on the route, but there is nothing wrong with that. Manchester, Huddersfield, Leeds, York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle should be a core intercity route, under 2 hours end-to-end.

If it's entirely new-build from Manchester to Huddersfield, I'm just not sure where you could fit an alignment in without destroying huge swathes of the Colne Valley. If it follows the existing line for the final stretch into Huddersfield, it won't be particularly fast (even allowing for slowing for a stop at Huddersfield).

That is, unless you go down the "Pennine Base Tunnel" route... in which case you wouldn't ideally be surfacing in Huddersfield.

 

[nick.c]

There are many topographical and geographical reasons why it won’t be straight. I’d be surprised if it was more than 125mph.

Agree with all of that. However, any new line could exploit the ability of modern electrified rolling stock to easily handle 1 in 40 gradients at full speed.
Assuming reports of this new line are accurate - I'd expect it to be an exclusively all passenger line, max 125 - 140 mph, so fairly straight, but with a vertical profile akin to a roller coaster and thus minimising earthworks, civils and possibly reducing tunnel lengths. All of this could significantly reduce cost. The existing line, with its twists and turns but relatively much gentler gradients would therefore have much greater capacity to support far more freight traffic.

 

[Purple Orange]

If it's entirely new-build from Manchester to Huddersfield, I'm just not sure where you could fit an alignment in without destroying huge swathes of the Colne Valley. If it follows the existing line for the final stretch into Huddersfield, it won't be particularly fast (even allowing for slowing for a stop at Huddersfield).

That is, unless you go down the "Pennine Base Tunnel" route... in which case you wouldn't ideally be surfacing in Huddersfield.

Perhaps it might, but I guess it’ll be shorter than people expect. The line needs to knock 10 mins off the TRU journey times between Leeds & Manchester. The south Manchester HS2 line will facilitate 7 min journeys to the airport, which today takes 15 mins at most, which is a much shorter distance than Huddersfield.

 

[Ianno87]

Perhaps it might, but I guess it’ll be shorter than people expect. The line needs to knock 10 mins off the TRU journey times between Leeds & Manchester.

Basically Huddersfield to Manchester in 20 minutes compared to 30 minutes today (given the bulk of TRU is probably the Huddersfield-Dewsbury section).

That's an average speed of about 72mph for the distance. Seems doable for a straight enough alignment.

 

[nr758123]

Which is not a sensible route from Manchester to Huddersfield. I suggest the journalist in question has a hazy grip on geography, at least north of Watford.

More likely the figure of 40 miles represents 20 route miles, but doubled (because it's double track) because the government wants to con people into believing that they are doing twice as much. Because they are useless at most things, but misleading the public is one of the few things they do well.

 

[Sir Felix Pole]

Standedge Tunnel is level and more or less straight, and just happens to have two spare bores. I have a horrible feeling that this 'new' railway is going to be a lot more modest than we are led to believe with perhaps just some selective realignment of the approach ramps and some intervention in the Stalybridge / Guide Bridge area. Rather like 'forty new hospitals'.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Standedge Tunnel is level and more or less straight, and just happens to have two spare bores. I have a horrible feeling that this 'new' railway is going to be a lot more modest than we are led to believe with perhaps just some selective realignment of the approach ramps and some intervention in the Stalybridge / Guide Bridge area. Rather like 'forty new hospitals'.

In what condition are those two spare bores?

 

[Bald Rick]

Agree with all of that. However, any new line could exploit the ability of modern electrified rolling stock to easily handle 1 in 40 gradients at full speed.
Assuming reports of this new line are accurate - I'd expect it to be an exclusively all passenger line, max 125 - 140 mph, so fairly straight, but with a vertical profile akin to a roller coaster and thus minimising earthworks, civils and possibly reducing tunnel lengths. All of this could significantly reduce cost. The existing line, with its twists and turns but relatively much gentler gradients would therefore have much greater capacity to support far more freight traffic.

I’m expecting it to be almost all in new tunnel from Ardwick to Marsden. I don’t see how it can be done otherwise.

 

[fishwomp]

I’m expecting it to be almost all in new tunnel from Ardwick to Marsden. I don’t see how it can be done otherwise.

There's trackbed of two lines totally unused bar the station at Gorton(?) - bring those back as far as Guide Bridge. The conflicting moves and stopping services play havoc from Guide Bridge all the way to Ardwick. 7 minutes for 4 miles Guide Bridge - Ardwick.. could do better!

Leeds-Manchester P services could even terminate in Platform 0 (used as a NR car park currently) and Platform 1 - they could get all the way from Stalybridge without a single conflicting movement or junction.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There's trackbed of two lines totally unused bar the station at Gorton(?) - bring those back as far as Guide Bridge. The conflicting moves and stopping services play havoc from Guide Bridge all the way to Ardwick. 7 minutes for 4 miles Guide Bridge - Ardwick.. could do better!

Leeds-Manchester P services could even terminate in Platform 0 (used as a NR car park currently) and Platform 1 - they could get all the way from Stalybridge without a single conflicting movement or junction.

On the referred-to trackbed of two unused lines as far as Guide Bridge, are there now any railway infrastructural installations upon it that would need to be relocated and would that said relocation pose operational difficulties?

 

[Bigman]

So if this does get going and TBMs get to work, where would they most likely set up constructions compounds and waste handling? I know that they have Calvert and Willesden for HS2 purposes.