Publication of Integrated Rail Plan for the North and Midlands

[norbitonflyer]

I'd imagine it will resurrect much of the earlier L2E4 work including Newark Grade Separation,

which will also allow service increases on the Nottingham/Lincoln/South Humberside route, providing connections to HS2 at Nottingham. Currently the ECML forms a significant barrier to services between Lincolnshire and the rest of the Midlands.

 

[muddythefish]

Is the Leeds - Sheffield new line included, as mooted, or will we still have to trundle along the old lines ?

 

[MidlandMainlie]

What is the point of any regional station?

The point is that Toton gets a railway station, which it presently lacks. Without HS2 connections from Sheffield and Derby, most demand will be relatively local, though sadly serving Nottingham would be difficult due to the line layout, so it risks being a bit of a Polesworth (from which most demand is to Brum).

If people from Toton want to go to Nottingham then there is the Tram, I am struggling to see what demand there will be without the HS2 hub as there nothing there.

 

[Roast Veg]

Is there anything in these proposals that is actually shovel ready?

Work has begun on those sections covered by TRU and HS2 phase 1. HS2 phase 2a has royal assent, phase 2b west has had design refinement (including Golborne, but that may be dropped). Some of the ECML upgrades are expected to come online very quickly according to the timescales. After that comes lots of electrification.

If people from Toton want to go to Nottingham then there is the Tram, I am struggling to see what demand there will be without the HS2 hub as there nothing there.

Lots of reference to private investment in the area. I suspect somebody was planning on building a huge housing estate.

 

[xotGD]

So is Leeds to Birmingham going to be via Manchester or East Midlands Parkway?

 

[swt_passenger]

I'd imagine it will resurrect much of the earlier L2E4 work including Newark Grade Separation, bundled in with PSU2, Digital Signalling and the NPR work for York - Newcastle. An approach and electrification from Hambleton Junction westwards to Leeds will be faster than accessing via Wakefield Westgate too. In terms of what is needed for 140mph as someone asked earlier - lots, all yours for say £3-5bn:

- OLE upgrading including fitting Carrier Wire Neutral Sections, HS2P conversion, modification/improvement of clearances and lots of Traction Power supply reinforcement. The equipment on the east coast has been receiving some funding in the past to upgrade to Mk3D and improve it's resilience in known trouble spots. Probably some lifting or rebuilding of certain overbridges to gain the necessary clearances.
- Closure of open platform faces in potential 140mph sections (Biggleswade, Sandy, Stevenage and Northallerton)
- High security palisade fencing throughout
- Aerodynamic modifications in tunnels
- Closure of any Level Crossings in >125mph sections. Some are already in play or anticipated (Lindsells, Love Lane (for Wintringham), Copmanthorpe No.2, Thirsk Station if it gets AFA funding to develop beyond design/feasibility).
- In cab signalling
- Civils works (underbridges, any weak earthworks etc.)
- Track replacement for any pre 1978 CWR and any non pandrol fittings. Lots of track fettling to improve ride quality.
- Swing nose points on the Fast Lines
- Train to structure gauging.
- Probably extra access points as you won't be red zone working on 140mph lines.

Sections to upgrade to 140mph?

1. Woolmer Green to Connington with a slight reduction through Offord
2. New England to Stoke Tunnel
3. Sections north of Grantham to just south of Bawtry where curvature allows.
4. Doncaster all the way through the Selby Diversion up to Colton/Copmanthorpe Area
5. Skelton Junction to around Croft on Tees
6. Perhaps north of Newcastle from say Littlehoughton to Spittal

Other schemes will help in terms of capacity:

- You'd also want to resurrect HW4T; it will also in any event be needed at least as far north as the proposed site of the Alconbury Weald station.
- Grade separation at Doncaster to/from Leeds
- Remodelling York North Throat/Skelton Junction
- Any freight loops between York and Newcastle
- Grade separation at Northallerton
- Darlington Station remodelling (funded)

Forget Closing Welwyn North and adding extra Viaducts and tunnels in the area; I suspect these will be managed by cab-signalling and timetabling modelling.

For anyone wondering about the above abbreviations:
L2E4 = London to Edinburgh in 4 hours
HS2P = Headspan to Portal conversion
HW4T = Huntingdon to Woodwalton Four Tracking

 

[deltic]

If people from Toton want to go to Nottingham then there is the Tram, I am struggling to see what demand there will be without the HS2 hub as there nothing there.

There is no commitment to build a station at Toton as the quote from the document shows

The Government will also accelerate transport improvements at Toton, such as a station for local/ regional services, with delivery subject to significant private sector investment – on a 50:50 match-funded basis with the taxpayer – coming forward at the site and developer contributions

 

[Western Sunset]

If people from Toton want to go to Nottingham then there is the Tram, I am struggling to see what demand there will be without the HS2 hub as there nothing there.

Easy access to "The Bank" for trainspotters?

 

[Roast Veg]

So is Leeds to Birmingham going to be via Manchester or East Midlands Parkway?

The former.

 

[Ianno87]

Lots of reference to private investment in the area. I suspect somebody was planning on building a huge housing estate.

It's a massive amount of land, with opportunity for a rail connection next door.

 

[miami]

Probably not by the very definition of this report - it's a *strategy* the very first step in the process.

Which will have billions spent on the process, then thrown away just before the shovels are broken out. A great way of spending money without actually building infrastructure.

 

[class26]

Already in the ECML timetable proposals, I think.

One a day is possible, more will require additional stock

 

[Roast Veg]

Also of note and not yet mentioned: a chord at Bordesley such that passengers arriving at Birmingham for destinations in the South West can travel via a quicker connection at Moor Street instead of New Street.

 

[snowball]

Is there anything in these proposals that is actually shovel ready?

Work has begun on those sections covered by TRU and HS2 phase 1. HS2 phase 2a has royal assent, phase 2b west has had design refinement

Work has begun on some bits of TRU. Hudds to Westtown is probably a couple of years off, for some other bits the timing is unclear. HS2 phase 2a should start within a couple of years. Phase 2b west to Manchester is years off - it still has to have its Bill published and go through parliament. The Golborne arm or its possible replacement are further off.

 

[swt_passenger]

One a day is possible, more will require additional stock

As usual, such extensions are always easiest very early and very late, the now withdrawn daily Sunderland being a prime example.

 

[quantinghome]

See page 33. Leeds to Birmingham in 89 minutes. Not a saving of an hour, I agree, but 31 minutes saved (on a shorter journey than to London) is a bigger reduction (25% as against 15%).

I saw it. The timings assume passengers change at Manchester. Given how much we talk on here about the benefit of direct connections it seems bizarre to provide the rail connection between the 2nd and 4th largest conurbations in the country in such a way, but there you go. That's this government for you.

 

[A0]

Which will have billions spent on the process, then thrown away just before the shovels are broken out. A great way of spending money without actually building infrastructure.

So what do you suggest? Not publishing a strategy and going straight into delivery? How do you suggest that would work?

Have you ever been involved in strategy development or project delivery?

 

[quantinghome]

Is the Leeds - Sheffield new line included, as mooted, or will we still have to trundle along the old lines ?

"We'll have a think about it" is basically as much as the report says:

 

[Ianno87]

"We'll have a think about it" is basically as much as the report says:

View attachment 105804

I guess you wouldn't want to build something between Sheffield and Leeds, only to then be incompatible/abortive with whatever you wanted to do long-term to connect Leeds into HS2.

 

[quantinghome]

So what do you suggest? Not publishing a strategy and going straight into delivery? How do you suggest that would work?

Have you ever been involved in strategy development or project delivery?

There isn't even a strategy in some places. Take Leeds-Sheffield. There's nothing. Not even at a high strategic level.

 

[6Gman]

Other text in the document expects the new line to used for London/Birmingham-Liverpool trains, taking them off the WCML south of Ditton

Not going to go down well in Runcorn . . .

 

[quantinghome]

I guess you wouldn't want to build something between Sheffield and Leeds, only to then be incompatible/abortive with whatever you wanted to do long-term to connect Leeds into HS2.

Of course, but that was the whole point of the IRP, to integrate all the plans together. Not to abandon half of it and then say "we'll get back to you".

 

[MidlandMainlie]

There is no commitment to build a station at Toton as the quote from the document shows

Agreed, I can not see private sector investment coming to Toton without the HS2 hub so I think this is just a sop to the local Tory MP for Broxtowe who is one of the biggest losers from today's announcement.

 

[A0]

There isn't even a strategy in some places. Take Leeds-Sheffield. There's nothing. Not even at a high strategic level.

That's not true - they've identified there is a need to improve the journey times, what they've not defined is HOW that can be achieved and that's because it's tied up with other elements. So the options on sending HS into Leeds will also look at the options on Leeds - Sheffield and the cost / benefits will reflect those.

I'm not sure you actually understand the process. @Ianno87 sums it up in post #230.

 

[S&CLER]

Presumably the Warrington-Marsden line will mean that all fast trains will vacate Manchester Victoria, which can then revert to being a station purely for local and regional services.

 

[Ianno87]

Of course, but that was the whole point of the IRP, to integrate all the plans together. Not to abandon half of it and then say "we'll get back to you".

That's not true - they've identified there is a need to improve the journey times, what they've not defined is HOW that can be achieved and that's because it's tied up with other elements. So the options on sending HS into Leeds will also look at the options on Leeds - Sheffield and the cost / benefits will reflect those.

I'm not sure you actually understand the process. @Ianno87 sums it up in post #230.

I presume also that affordability/deliverability comes into play; effectively given these constraints, there is time available to thrash out what the end state solution for "Yorkshire" should be, with MML electrification and HS2 via the East Midlands providing earlier realisation of some benefits in the meantime whilst still acting as a "stepping stone" to whatever happens long term.

 

[WiredUp]

I was going to ask about potential ECML upgrades so thank you for this comprehensive post.

Probably worth a thread of it own...

No problem. Much of the work in the three tranches will be dusting off work NR/NPR/DfT have done in the past. The three tranches in the IRP are awfully reminiscent of the original Railtrack ECML upgrade. I think all they got in the end was Leeds First and Corey's Mill Feeder Station (I'm showing my age), I wouldn't hold your breath..

 

[baza585]

That's the understatement of the century. There's no real plan in it, and a huge amount of spin. It's a really deceitful document in truth.

What is your factual basis for this sweeping statement?

It's a strategy document. There are more documents to come with detail.

HS2b was dreamt up by the Brown government in 2000s and rebranded by George Osborne in 2014, both conveniently just before an election. I never expected it to be built; did you?

I am no supporter of this government, far from it, but these proposals appear to benefit many in the North West, East Midlands and South Yorkshire, whilst Leeds and the North East are worse off. As always the devil will be in detail and delivery will be a challenge. On balance they look sensible to me.

Have you actually read the full document?

 

[ABB125]

This is said about Toton:

Most HS2 passengers would probably end up driving to Toton, but road access to the site is also relatively constrained. The main access route, the A52 Brian Clough Way, is also the main road between Nottingham and Derby and is severely congested at peak times.

Funny how severely congested roads isn't an issue at Birmingham Interchange...

 

[Ianno87]

Have you actually read the full document?

There is quite a bit of very valid reasoning in the document, so I would second giving it a proper read before forming opinions.