TfW found to be worst TOC in the UK

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I’m regularly getting stuck at both Coryton and Penarth stations for an hour due to problems on the line. Rhymneys are always being cancelled too. It’s dire in Cardiff and the Valleys.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I don't know about this, TfW are miles better than ATW was and I'm 99% sure I've seen that photo of a "crowded train" years ago. It's not perfect but at least TfW are investing in new trains and infrastructure, but that's probably because it's nationalised now!

No, the new trains were ordered by/for the 15-year Keolis-Amey TfW franchise, which was terminated after a couple of years and is now in direct WG control.
K-A are still involved in the introduction of the new trains, and in the new infrastructure works.

Services are still running well below the 2019 frequency, at 50% in many cases.
Other TOCs have recovered much better (eg Merseyrail is back to 4tph Chester-Liverpool, Northern is back to normal Chester-Manchester).
Not helped in Wales by Avanti still running a very limited Voyager service to Chester/Holyhead.
But at least the TfW Mk4s are in service.

The Union Connectivity report out today seems to recommend service upgrades on the north/south wales main lines, but nobody is rushing to find the money for them.

 

[tomwills98]

Makes me nostalgic for the days when people were moaning about Arriva and the "no growth" franchise

Now the Government has a lot more control over things, the "no growth" days are long gone, Arriva were replaced by Keolis/Amey over three years ago, and there's nobody else to blame.... and the operations are apparently now the worst in the UK?

Passenger numbers are understandably below pre-Covid numbers, services have been thinned out, so why is there so much overcrowding (given that there's scope to lengthen trains, given that other services aren't being operated)?

Be careful what you wish for, I guess - at least Arriva were a handy scapegoat for each and every problem - whereas now you really need to be delivering (rather than still promising things will be great in just another couple of years, despite having been running the franchise for over three years) - it's amazing how much wool you can pull over people's eyes when there's some nationalism involved

Just because Arriva's gone doesn't mean the effects of that franchise are still felt. 15 years of no investment and growth isn't going to be undone in three.

Scope to lengthen trains? thirty pacers have gone to be replaced by a few barely working 769's, and 3rd/4th hand 153's. I think the only big capacity increase would be the Maesteg/Ebbw Vale/Cheltenhams with the 170's

 

[stuu]

It was YouGov, make of that what you will. It isn't quite as clear cut as TfW being the worst TOC in the UK, those asked were rating their local services.

I wonder if this is a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Politicians say the trains are bad, there is a belief that London/England gets everything... therefore people are more likely to think their local service is bad. There's nothing objective about this survey, it's entirely opinion

 

[1955LR]

I too am getting fed up with cancellations and late running of TFW services in the last couple of weeks and indeed the whole of this last summer . Last week Newtown to Aberystwyth . Train terminated at Machynlleth as it was 35 mins late , bus replacement to Aberystwyth. Yesterday 07:10 Hereford to Carmarthen cancelled meaning I had to abort whole journey .I am now retired and I love travelling by train for leisure but its getting to the point that I feel nervous trying to plan any journey using TFW , which given I live near Hereford is making the car very attractive.

 

[williamn]

Not surprised by this - I've done possibly 100's of train journeys all over the UK over the last year and the only bad ones have been on TfW.

 

[Towers]

Aside from reliability issues, have TfW restored on board revenue duties yet? I travel with them only very occasionally, between Cardiff Cen and the Valleys, but I've not seen a ticket check for a very long time.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Aside from reliability issues, have TfW restored on board revenue duties yet? I travel with them only very occasionally, between Cardiff Cen and the Valleys, but I've not seen a ticket check for a very long time.

Yes, I've had checks on the Valleys and Gloucester to Maesteg.

 

[SJL2020]

Aside from reliability issues, have TfW restored on board revenue duties yet? I travel with them only very occasionally, between Cardiff Cen and the Valleys, but I've not seen a ticket check for a very long time.

Not on the Chester to Manchester route, at least not on the trains I've been on.

 

[mrcheek]

If you think things are bad now, then just wait until the trams without toilets are introduced on the valley lines.

 

[tomwills98]

Not on the Chester to Manchester route, at least not on the trains I've been on.

went up to York at the start of September and guard was out then

If you think things are bad now, then just wait until the trams without toilets are introduced on the valley lines.

I know, four electrified trains per hour, terrible

 

[Envoy]

If TfW had any sense, they would acquire extra Mk4 coaches now to add to their long distance trains in future - should the need arise. (For non rail geeks, TfW are acquiring MK4 coaches that have been used on the East Coast Main Line and which would otherwise go for scrap).

 

[wobman]

The dft should shoulder a lot of the blame, they wrote up a non growth 15yr franchise. We're the company could take all the profits for their shareholders and put no investment back into the franchise at all. Atw actually went up and beyond what they could have done by investing there own money into the franchise.
Talking to tfw management the DFT meddling with rolling stock procurement with the new franchise is causing issues again, they have specified mostly 2 car 197s as they think it gives more flexibility. I was told this by a tfw manager.

Tfw have some great ambitions for the franchise and they have brought in lots of external staff into senior roles. They probably didn't realise what's involved with running a toc franchise compared to other business models.

Things tend to look easy looking in from the outside, until you realise what's involved in taking on new managers / new roles / new traincrew/ huge amounts of training / testing rolling stock etc whilst still running a railway during a pandemic......

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The dft should shoulder a lot of the blame, they wrote up a non growth 15yr franchise. We're the company could take all the profits for their shareholders and put no investment back into the franchise at all. Atw actually went up and beyond what they could have done by investing there own money into the franchise.
Talking to tfw management the DFT meddling with rolling stock procurement with the new franchise is causing issues again, they have specified mostly 2 car 197s as they think it gives more flexibility. I was told this by a tfw manager.

Tfw have some great ambitions for the franchise and they have brought in lots of external staff into senior roles. They probably didn't realise what's involved with running a toc franchise compared to other business models.

Things tend to look easy looking in from the outside, until you realise what's involved in taking on new managers / new roles / new traincrew/ huge amounts of training / testing rolling stock etc whilst still running a railway during a pandemic......

DfT (ie Westminster/Whitehall) had next to nothing to do with the 2018 TfW franchising process - it was all done by WG (within the UK rules).
The current rolling stock plan is entirely down to WG and its appointed partners/consultants (Keolis Amey).

 

[TravelDream]

DfT (ie Westminster/Whitehall) had next to nothing to do with the 2018 TfW franchising process - it was all done by WG (within the UK rules).
The current rolling stock plan is entirely down to WG and its appointed partners/consultants (Keolis Amey).

But you can't just magic up new trains, staff and infrastructure overnight.
The ATW franchise left the new franchise operater with a ball and chain around their ankle.
By the time plans and formulated, budgeted, orders made and then things are delivered/ implemented several years will have passed. I think TFW have been very quick off the mark considering there will be a whole load of new trains in operation by next year with the CVL electrification scheduled to be complete.

The current TFW plan for Wales is the most ambitious since the railways were first constructed.
Have little doubt that if the UK Government had been solely in charge of Wales' railway and had the new franchise we'd be stuck with the 2-3 carriage Class 175s running on the Marches for the foreseeable, diesel Sprinter trains running on the Valley Lines twice per hour at most, no Ebbw Vale line, certainly no Valleys electrification, in fact no new trains in Wales at all.

I am not sure what @wobman is referring to with interference in rolling stock. Can you give more details?

 

[DelW]

Aside from reliability issues, have TfW restored on board revenue duties yet? I travel with them only very occasionally, between Cardiff Cen and the Valleys, but I've not seen a ticket check for a very long time.

On the basis of an admittedly small sample, only about half of Heart of Wales conductors are selling tickets on board, on a line that has very few ticket offices or even machines. Of course a lot of passengers at this time of year are local pensioners travelling (legitimately) on their bus passes.

 

[Caaardiff]

Passenger numbers are understandably below pre-Covid numbers, services have been thinned out, so why is there so much overcrowding (given that there's scope to lengthen trains, given that other services aren't being operated)?

It's a lot more complicated than that in reality. TfW lost 30 Pacer units but gained 9 769s and 12 170's. In terms of comparable units the 769's being 4 car are a replacement for 18 Pacers, along with the 12 170's should mean that capacity should've been increase with many of the 170's being 3 car. However there's only usually only 4 769's planned for service due to their maintenance issues and only 7 170 due to them only being route cleared on 3 routes. So the units are there, but just not fully utilised!
The removal of Pacers has meant that Taf Valley lines are exclusively 150's meaning little scope to strengthen on those lines as 150's are still required elsewhere (Blaenau, Bidston, West Wales). 16 153's have also been brought in, many of which are because of the 769 issues, but TfW have now actually bought 9 of these additional to be retained for future use.
Reliability of an ageing fleet is also becoming an issue, but the available fleet is being utilised as best as possible.

I've been on a TfW 4 car on the north Wales line. They are even running 5 car in the morning but stopping less which means added into COVID, they are running rather empty. Makes little sense

This is a DfT requirement for services to be reduced through castlefield and capacity added to other services. Some stops were taken out to maximise the capacity for stations further down the line. The reality of that outcome though doesn't seem to be as effective.
There's a 4 car (158) and 4/5 car 175 in the morning to Manchester and a 5 car in the evening peak.

If TfW had any sense, they would acquire extra Mk4 coaches now to add to their long distance trains in future - should the need arise. (For non rail geeks, TfW are acquiring MK4 coaches that have been used on the East Coast Main Line and which would otherwise go for scrap).

They have. They have bought 5 more to add to the current 3 which will be 5 car formation working Swansea - Manchester services with first class. They are currently undergoing maintenance works to make them compatible with Class 67s and ready for service. That however won't be until December next year. As with everything, these things take time.


TfW are going to have a very rough ride in the next 6 months or so. The new fleet are all starting to arrive, several 197's are in testing, 2x 231s have arrived at Canton and will be used on Rhymney services until the 756's arrive, just to get rid of the 769's, 230's are still under testing on Bidston line with question marks on if they will ever actually make it in service.
In terms of fleet, the plan was 6-7 769's in service and 4 of the 5 230's, freeing up 2 150's from Bidston line. Had that gone well then there would be good capacity and reliability on the Rhymney line and a couple of 150's freed up for Taf Valley services to either be strengthened or frequency increases.
You could say TfW have just been hit by a lot of bad luck.

The other major issue TfW is facing is train crew shortages, sickness and training requirements on all the new fleets. It's questionable how it's become this bad, poor planning on their behalf? Possibly. Covid restrictions delaying training and increase sickness? Possibly. It's a perfect storm. Hopefully TfW are pulling their socks up and getting training of new train crew done as quickly (and safely) as possible.

Commuter traffic hasn't seen the same levels as pre-covid, but TfW has seen demand return, if not spread out on services that weren't as busy pre-covid. Changes in travel patterns are evident.
During Covid TfW had to also battle with huge demand for leisure travel due to international travel restrictions. Every part of Wales was in high demand, North Wales coast, Cambrian, West Wales and even local services such as Barry Island were bursting during the summer.

What does the future hold? Over the next year or so there will be 4-5 new fleet introductions (197s, 231s, 756s, 398s and extra Mk4's). All of which need introduction to the company and a huge amount of train crew training. If I was TfW I would avoid doing so much at the same time, it's a recipe for disaster. Get the 231's introduced on the Rhymney line and keep the 197's in North Wales for now, with a slow introduction of the 197's in South Wales.

Once these are in place most lines will see capacity increases along with frequency increases on some lines. It's a few years but will change things dramatically.

 

[DelW]

(extensive snip)

Once these are in place most lines will see capacity increases along with frequency increases on some lines. It's a few years but will change things dramatically.

I appreciate your detailed explanations, and I follow the history of what has happened, but to much of the travelling public, I think it just sounds like endless "jam tomorrow".
It's now over three years since TfW (then partnered with KA) took over from ATW. Many people expected immediate improvements, which of course weren't practical, but IIRC there were promises of improvements within a year or two. Since then we've had Covid, and the disappointing performances of the 769s and 230s, but many passengers' experience is simply that the Pacers have gone but not been effectively replaced, other than by short forms and cancellations. If there are still more of those next year as a result of training demands, patience will wear very thin, and more promises of "it will all be better in a few years time" will only wind people up even more.
One can only hope that the new fleets perform well "out of the box", which of course hasn't always happened elsewhere.

 

[Eccles1983]

DfT (ie Westminster/Whitehall) had next to nothing to do with the 2018 TfW franchising process - it was all done by WG (within the UK rules).
The current rolling stock plan is entirely down to WG and its appointed partners/consultants (Keolis Amey).

That is not exactly true.

The rolling stock and its specs has been dictated by the dft. Bits of which are rearing its head.

 

[NoMorePacers]

Aside from reliability issues, have TfW restored on board revenue duties yet? I travel with them only very occasionally, between Cardiff Cen and the Valleys, but I've not seen a ticket check for a very long time.

I travelled across South Wales in August (as well as using some more services in the Midlands and North more recently) and I had my ticket checked plenty of times (only exception seemed to be the South Wales - Manchester route).

 

[Caaardiff]

Granted most TOCs are facing shortages at the moment, but a couple of short term loaned 150s or 158s would be incredibly helpful to TfW for the next few months.
A few swaps around could help ease the pressure if the DfT got involved.
At a stretch another 170 could be spared elsewhere I'm exchange for another unit common to TfWs fleet.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The rolling stock and its specs has been dictated by the dft. Bits of which are rearing its head.

I can imagine the 769 and 230 specs would derive from DfT projects (and already ordered by Northern and WMT).
The 197 would be a follow-on from the Northern and WMT work, though TfW doesn't seem to be getting an advantage from the 195/196 introduction.
I can't see the Stadler order being dependent of DfT, although the GA contract would have secured a UK-model Flirt platform.
I should think if TfW had a blank sheet of paper for rolling stock, it would have cost a lot more to have a unique set of designs.

 

[wobman]

That is not exactly true.

The rolling stock and its specs has been dictated by the dft. Bits of which are rearing its head.

I have said the same numerous times and my information comes from tfw management but apparently we are wrong !

 

[wobman]

Granted most TOCs are facing shortages at the moment, but a couple of short term loaned 150s or 158s would be incredibly helpful to TfW for the next few months.
A few swaps around could help ease the pressure if the DfT got involved.
At a stretch another 170 could be spared elsewhere I'm exchange for another unit common to TfWs fleet.

I think tfw are trying to get their hands on anything suitable, there's just nothing available.

 

[TravelDream]

I have said the same numerous times and my information comes from tfw management but apparently we are wrong !

Can you give more information on what interference has taken place?

It seemed to me like the 197, 231/756, and 398s are all pretty heavily influenced by TFW. Obviously the 197s and 231/756s are based on platforms already in use as trains in the UK (the 398s are more tram trams than train trams).

 

[40129]

Not on the Chester to Manchester route, at least not on the trains I've been on.

I've been checked several times on this route in recent weeks and they've had numerous revenue blocks at the un-manned stations - 'shame' the TVMs don't sell priv rate tickets

Incidentally, as a semi-regular traveller on the North Cheshire and New Street - Chester lines, I've had very few problems re punctuality/reliability. Admittedly, yesterday's train from Shrewsbury was 20 late but it did save me 20 mins waiting in the freezing cold at Chester. Two thing I don't like though:

1) Cl-150s replacing cl-158s or cl-175s
2) The insistence on playing the bi-lingual (Cymraeg first) travel safe announcement after every stop. Please note TfW that it's difficult to plan ahead when i'm already on the train. Oh well, at least they're no longer suggesting I try to avoid touching buttons - getting off the train was proving to be a little difficult

 

[wobman]

Can you give more information on what interference has taken place?

It seemed to me like the 197, 231/756, and 398s are all pretty heavily influenced by TFW. Obviously the 197s and 231/756s are based on platforms already in use as trains in the UK (the 398s are more tram trams than train trams).

I was told that the dft specified that the majority of the dmus for the new franchise would be 2 car units, that would create more flexibility in there view of future rolling stock provision. That's from a tfw management source, not Wikipedia or a journalist.

 

[mrd269697]

Apparently the Borderlands Line is finally getting its two trains an hour in May - can’t see how this will happen but fingers crossed.

 

[Eccles1983]

I can imagine the 769 and 230 specs would derive from DfT projects (and already ordered by Northern and WMT).
The 197 would be a follow-on from the Northern and WMT work, though TfW doesn't seem to be getting an advantage from the 195/196 introduction.
I can't see the Stadler order being dependent of DfT, although the GA contract would have secured a UK-model Flirt platform.
I should think if TfW had a blank sheet of paper for rolling stock, it would have cost a lot more to have a unique set of designs.

Can you give more information on what interference has taken place?

It seemed to me like the 197, 231/756, and 398s are all pretty heavily influenced by TFW. Obviously the 197s and 231/756s are based on platforms already in use as trains in the UK (the 398s are more tram trams than train trams).

All of it. The platform is one thing, the actual nuts, bolts, seats, toilets and pretty much everything else you can think off is dft led.

The only thing that isn't is the PIS and paint.

 

[6Gman]

so yesterday November 24th it was released on Welsh newspapers that tfw have been found to be the worse toc by customer satisfaction.

An opinion poll has found that, in its sample, TfW had the lowest overall customer satisfaction.

Not that it is the "worst toc in the UK".

A little anecdote. Some years ago I was a councillor on an authority which had responsibility for paying housing benefit. Every year our performance was measured: how quickly we processed claims, how accurate we were in paying out (how many over or under-payments), how many appeals against decisions were successful etc. On every measure we were the best performers in the county.

And yet we also had a higher level of complaints than most other authorities. Which reflected not our performance but the nature of our local clientele (and perhaps our willingness to facilitate complaints).

So which is the better measure of performance? Objective measurement or subjective comment?