Southern England EMU’S

[cambsy]

Moderators, I put this in this sub forum, as thought be too old information for traction section, so feel free to move if necessary.

I have just watched, a You Tube video of Southern Electric Units in the 1980’s, , and though know some of the names, like 2 HAP, i do not know, what it stands for, or what they look like, so it would be good if could have pics and information on the Southern Electric units, so when watch a video etc, I know what I’m looking at. I’m 49 so remember them a bit, but never really got my head around them all.

I liked the Jaffa Cake liveried units, as they were on fast services, but have no idea,what number or designation they were, so I’m really just interested in slam door units and not the modern stuff, as know pretty much all the modern stuff, hope people can help.

 

[JonathanH]

The website that is the most useful source on Southern region EMUs is Blood and Custard which gives history of unit reformation and other operational history.

https://www.bloodandcustard.com/#MultipleUnits

The histories comprise decades of research by Southern Region railway staff (in particular railwayman & historian Glen Woods, railway historian Mike King and railwayman John Atkinson) including the use of railway sources such as individual Works Records (in particular Waterloo, Eastleigh Works and Lancing Works), BR Maintenance Programs and individual carriage /multiple-unit record cards.

Plenty of reading there to understand each of the rolling stock types used on the Southern Region and Southern Railway before that, including descriptions of the unit naming conventions.

 

[cambsy]

Thanks for that link, very useful.

 

[swt_passenger]

Thanks for that link, very useful.

Another good resource for everything Southern is the “Southern Email Group” website, follow the link to “Prototype features”.

Enthusiasts, Historians and Modellers of the Southern Railway, including its predecessors and successors, corresponding over the Internet.

The Southern Railway E-mail Group

 

[yorksrob]

Moderators, I put this in this sub forum, as thought be too old information for traction section, so feel free to move if necessary.

I have just watched, a You Tube video of Southern Electric Units in the 1980’s, , and though know some of the names, like 2 HAP, i do not know, what it stands for, or what they look like, so it would be good if could have pics and information on the Southern Electric units, so when watch a video etc, I know what I’m looking at. I’m 49 so remember them a bit, but never really got my head around them all.

I liked the Jaffa Cake liveried units, as they were on fast services, but have no idea,what number or designation they were, so I’m really just interested in slam door units and not the modern stuff, as know pretty much all the modern stuff, hope people can help.

If you want to see a HAP unit, the NRM are doing one up at Shildon. One of the carriages has been completed and it looks great.

The "P" is for pnematic as in Electro Pneumatic Breaking.

The "H" means that half of the unit (one carriage) has access to the loo.

 

[30907]

The "P" is for pnematic as in Electro Pneumatic Breaking.

Short for EPB as in 4EPB or EP as in 4CEP....

The "H" means that half of the unit (one carriage) has access to the loo.

...and derives from the pre-war HALs (Half Lavatory) which were the economy version of the BIL (Bi-Lavatory) and related to the early new-build 4LAVs which IIRC only had 2 Lavs. Better than the units converted from pre-WW1 steam stock which were 2-NOL meaning No L... (guess!).

Have a good time with Bloodandcustard, but be prepared to spend hours!

 

[norbitonflyer]

Pre-war units
3 or 4 SUBurban
4 LAVatory (like a SUB but with a single carriage with a lavatory)
5 BELle (as in Brighton)
6 PULlman
6 CITy (6PUL units with more First Class)
6 PANtry
2 BI-Lavatory
2 HAlf Lavatory
2 NO Lavatory
4 CORridor
4 BUFfet
post war units
2 or 4 EPB (Electro Pneumatic Brake - the first units so fitted)
4 CEP Corridor EP
4 BEP Buffet EP
2 HAP - HAL layout with EP
4 CIG Corridor Intermediate Gangway (or after the telegraphic code for Brighton -IG)
4 BIG Buffet Intermediate Gangway
4 VEP Vestibule EP
4 REP Restaurant EP
4 TC Trailer Control
4 VEC, 3 TIS for use on the island known to the Romans as Vectis

You asked specifically about HAPs. There were two varieties.

The 414/1s, like most EPBs, were built to Southern Railway designs on underframes recovered from older SUB and NOL units (which had themselves been built using bodies from redundant loco-hauled stock - electrification in the 1920s having raced ahead of the rate at which loco-hauled stock was reaching life expiry - so when the bodies did reach the end of their working lives the underframes were still only about 25 years old).

The 414/2s and 414/3s were new build to BR design.

Both types closely resembled the corresponding EPB types, and indeed the motor coaches were identical (most of the SR type were later used with former 4SUB trailers to form new 4 EPB units). The driving trailers were different from the EPBs, easily recognised from the "First Class" yellow stripe, the opaque toilet windows and, in the SR type, the larger windows on the corridor side.

The BR type HAPs also closely resembled the Class 204 and 205 DEMUs, and indeed the driving trailers were almost identical. Six ex-EPB driving trailers were used to form the "heads" of the Class 206 "Tadpole" units, so named because the rest of the unit (the "tail") was formed of narrow-bodied ex-Hastings Line stock. When the Tadpoles were disbanded (because the Hastings Line needed its rolling stock back for an expansion of the service) the driving trailers were used to strengthen the Class 204s from 2 cars to three.

The DEMUs, EPBs, HAPs and the motor luggage vans were the only post-war units not to have end gangways. CEPs and BEPs were similar apart from the obvious difference of the corridor connection. The other gangwayed stock had a different cab design in which the jumper cables were in recesses under the cab windows instead of sitting proud of the cab front. The East Sussex DEMUs (class 207) had a unique combination of the recess jumpers and no gangway connection.

I believe the only units to get "Jaffa cake" livery were 4CEPs (and some AM9s on the Eastern Region).

 

[yorksrob]

Ah, the good old trains

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I believe the only units to get "Jaffa cake" livery were 4CEPs (and some AM9s on the Eastern Region).

A few CIGs had this livery as well.

 

[DustyBin]

A few CIGs had this livery as well.

View attachment 106500

I’m sure it was applied to at least one MLV as well.

Further to the excellent list posted by @norbitonflyer it’s maybe worth pointing out that some 4-SUB and 2-HAL units were built post-war. In fact one could argue that the Bulleid design units should actually be in the post-war category, particularly the 2-HALs which weren’t introduced until 1948 IIRC.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

The (old) Southern was very resourceful and wasted nothing. if anything could be reused, rebuilt or repaired, it was done. Many wooden-bodied vehicles were destroyed and their underframes reused for new EPB and Hap units; many, many vehicles were swapped or reformed to keep units going; many made up into "new" units

The EPB design used a then new EP (electro-pneumatic) brake and many of the Southern EMU classes were derived from this; e.g. CEP (corridor electro-pneumatic), BEP (buffet electro-pneumatic), HAP (half-lavatory electro-pneumatic) etc.

 

[XAM2175]

Please excuse the slight divergence - is anybody able to speak authoritatively on the proper format of the various letter codes? I've seen them rendered at various points as 2HAL, 4Vep, 4-EBP, and so on and so on.

 

[yorksrob]

I’m sure it was applied to at least one MLV as well.

Further to the excellent list posted by @norbitonflyer it’s maybe worth pointing out that some 4-SUB and 2-HAL units were built post-war. In fact one could argue that the Bulleid design units should actually be in the post-war category, particularly the 2-HALs which weren’t introduced until 1948 IIRC.

There's still an MLV in it at Warcop

 

[181]

Further to the excellent list posted by @norbitonflyer it’s maybe worth pointing out that some 4-SUB and 2-HAL units were built post-war. In fact one could argue that the Bulleid design units should actually be in the post-war category, particularly the 2-HALs which weren’t introduced until 1948 IIRC.

Yes, the 4-SUBs that lasted into the 1980s were built in 1946-1951; they were a modification of a design originally introduced in 1941 (source: The '4 Sub' Story by Bryan Rayner and David Brown, Southern Electric Group, 1983). However, the term '4SUB' was also applied to units of a earlier generation when augmented with new trailer cars during the war (see https://www.bloodandcustard.com/LSWR-3carmotorunits.html#ThreeCarMotorUnits).

Please excuse the slight divergence - is anybody able to speak authoritatively on the proper format of the various letter codes? I've seen them rendered at various points as 2HAL, 4Vep, 4-EBP, and so on and so on

Although I tend to think of them in the last of those formats, I'm suspect there's no sound basis for that. The book mentioned above uses '4 Sub' and 'EPB'; photographs suggest that on the ends of the units, by the 1980s at least it said '4 SUB', '4 VEP' and so on. The Blood and Custard website uses the latter format.

 

[D6130]

Both types closely resembled the corresponding EPB types, and indeed the motor coaches were identical

IIRC, although the BR-type HAP motor coaches were externally identical to their EPB cousins, some or all of them were geared for 90 mph, to enable them to be used in multiple formations of up to 12 cars on peak hour main line commuter expresses to and from the Kent Coast. Those passengers who had indulged in a pint or two after work would have to select their carriage carefully!

The last batch, built in the early 1960s, were fitted with Commonwealth trailer bogies, which gave a slight improvement to their somewhat lively ride.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Corridor Electro Pneumatic (CEP) Vestibule Electro Pneumatic (VEP),

A CIG used the old Brighton telegraph code IG

 

[30907]

Please excuse the slight divergence - is anybody able to speak authoritatively on the proper format of the various letter codes? I've seen them rendered at various points as 2HAL, 4Vep, 4-EBP, and so on and so on.

BR(S) documents to hand - SE Carriage Workings for 1962 and 1977 - have:
4 E.P.B. (complete with space and full stops, ditto M.L.V. and T.L.V.). Everything else (and this was true of SR stock too) was in the format Hap (etc).

4 TC stock was always shown without the full stops - printing conventions changed between 1951 and 1967 - but I don't know when the stops vanished generally.

So basically it corresponds to the way the abbreviations were spoken. I don't know when the change to all upper-case took place.

Little details:
The designation 12 C.B.C. also appears for boat trains in the standard formation (and ISTR CBCig later)
Sub never appears though - plain 4 or 8 is used, though I am fairly sure Sub was common railway usage, not just enthusiast.

 

[Ken H]

Lets not forget some 4EPB's were ordered for Tyneside. When Tyneside was de-electrified, they ended up on the Southern. I think there were detail differences between the tyneside ones and the 'standard' ones.

 

[JonathanH]

Lets not forget some 4EPB's were ordered for Tyneside. When Tyneside was de-electrified, they ended up on the Southern. I think there were detail differences between the tyneside ones and the 'standard' ones.

15 2-EPBs on Tyneside, not four car units.

 

[30907]

Lets not forget some 2EPB's were ordered for Tyneside. When Tyneside was de-electrified, they ended up on the Southern. I think there were detail differences between the tyneside ones and the 'standard' ones.

Yes - apart from the headcode box, there was a bigger van space so one fewer compartment. And deeper (less leg-room) and lower bench seats from memories of them on the SE Division.

 

[DelW]

My 1983 Ian Allan ABC lists them variously in the format 4-SUB or 4SUB (etc.)

In addition to those listed above, it includes:

• 4CAP - Coastway conversions from 2HAP
• 2SAP - Semi-open (?) conversions from 2HAP and
• 4VEG - Gatwick conversions from 4VEP with extra luggage space

When you get to acronyms apparently standing for Coastway hAlf Pneumatic and Vestibule Electro Gatwick, I'd suggest the convention has rather broken down

 

[43096]

4 CIG Corridor Intermediate Gangway (or after the telegraphic code for Brighton -IG)
4 BIG Buffet Intermediate Gangway

The "Blood and Custard" website states that it was Buffet / Corridor BrIGhton that was the source of the BIG/CIG name.

The alternative derivation was from Buffet / Corridor Intermediate Guard (not gangway), this reflecting the presence of the guard's accommodation in one of the middle vehicles (the MBSO), rather than in the driving cars as on BEP/CEP stock. Given that later deliveries went to the South West Division, the Intermediate Guard name may well be a "backronym".

I believe the only units to get "Jaffa cake" livery were 4CEPs (and some AM9s on the Eastern Region).

The first 11 facelifted phase 1 CIGs (1701-11) also got "jaffa cake" colours, but were quickly repainted into NSE livery. Again, the Blood and Custard site has details, and a photo of such a unit.
https://www.bloodandcustard.com/BR-4CIG.html

 

[43096]

My 1983 Ian Allan ABC lists them variously in the format 4-SUB or 4SUB (etc.)

In addition to those listed above, it includes:

• 4CAP - Coastway conversions from 2HAP
• 2SAP - Semi-open (?) conversions from 2HAP and
• 4VEG - Gatwick conversions from 4VEP with extra luggage space

When you get to acronyms apparently standing for Coastway hAlf Pneumatic and Vestibule Electro Gatwick, I'd suggest the convention has rather broken down

The names were derived as follows, again from Blood and Custard (https://www.bloodandcustard.com/br-2hap.html):

The name HAP followed on from the 2 HAL Half-A-Lavatory units:
HAP denoting Half-A-(lavatory) (electro) Pneumatic.

Latterly the first-class accommodation in the 2 HAP units was downgraded to second-class to form the 2 SAP units:
SAP denoting Second class (half)-A-(lavatory) (electro) Pneumatic.

From April /May 1982 pairs of 2 HAP units were permanently coupled together for use on the Coastway Services out of Brighton. These became 4 CAP units:
CAP denoting Coastway (half)-A-(lavatory) (electro) Pneumatic.

 

[Ken H]

15 2-EPBs on Tyneside, not four car units.

Ah, thanks

 

[Ken H]

The names were derived as follows, again from Blood and Custard (https://www.bloodandcustard.com/br-2hap.html):

Why does A mean lavatory?

 

[Dr_Paul]

The (old) Southern was very resourceful and wasted nothing. if anything could be reused, rebuilt or repaired, it was done.

This continued into BR days. The traction motors of the 4-REP stock ended up in the 442s. (And into post-BR days: the 442s have a Lazarus-style tendency to keep reappearing in service when everyone thought they have finally gone for good.)

Yes - apart from the headcode box, there was a bigger van space so one fewer compartment. And deeper (less leg-room) and lower bench seats from memories of them on the SE Division.

I believe that the Tyneside stock had a 2.5 ton capacity guard's compartment. It was far bigger than the space on other SR suburban stock. Presumably, there was a lot of parcels traffic to deal with.

 

[Taunton]

I guess the fact is there was no "official" way to write the stock designation, even different engineering staff and drawings did it different ways.

A surprising point about the 2-car EPB and HAP units is that the earlier "SR" body style on 1930s underframes were actually built after the BR standard units; because the SR frames were 62' instead of the BR 64', the jigs for the BR units didn't fit, whereas those left over from the older SR style did. They were numbered lower than the BR style, and used the former SR style of interior fitout as well, so seemed older, but were newer.

Regarding CIG, when new (1963 ?) there was no explanation, but their introductory Modern Railways article at the time had the "old LBSC code for Brighton was IG" story.

The old Southern "nothing wasted" story carries on. The 455s with a onetime 508 centre car, of a completely different profile, made of alloy instead of steel, is one such. Another was the total rebuild of redundant Gatwick units into more 458 cars.

The 1950s Tyneside units were regarded there as a real backwards step to compartments from the longstanding electric saloon stock there, which they got rid of as soon as one electric line, to South Shields, went to diesel, even though they were the newest units. They seemed to normally run in big formations of 6 or 8 cars there. Didn't they have just one full compartment marked as first class when on Tyneside?

 

[Rescars]

IIRC the Southern recycled some of the LBSC overhead electric coaching stock (itself converted from steam stock) into third rail units, with the different roof profiles resulting in a rather uneven appearance. The motor coach underframes ended up as bogie brake vans.

Also, I think there were some short-lived double decker units - 4DD

 

[30907]

Why does A mean lavatory?

I think Bloodandcustard is wrong here. 2-Hal = HAlf-Lavatory as correctly stated at https://www.bloodandcustard.com/SR-2HAL.html so 2-Hap is HAlf (Lavatory Electro) Pneumatic.
Think of it as like one of those puzzles where you can only change one letter at a time! So
HAL- HAP (EP Hal) - CAP (Coastway Hap), SAP (Suburban Hap?).

But then there was the unique 8Vab with 3 Vep power cars and a Buffet and could sub for a 4-Rep plus 4-TC...V for Vep, B for Buffet, but where did the A come from? My wild guess is that it was to avoid 8-Veb which sounds very like 8-Vep.

Also, I think there were some short-lived double decker units - 4DD

Well, they put in 25 years or so...
There were some really short-lived ones as stock wore out, mostly after I moved away from the SR in the 80s and lost touch/count.

I guess the fact is there was no "official" way to write the stock designation, even different engineering staff and drawings did it different ways.

I'm sure you're right and there is no one definitive "spelling."

 

[DustyBin]

There's still an MLV in it at Warcop

Yes, I’ve actually seen it now you mention it!

IIRC, although the BR-type HAP motor coaches were externally identical to their EPB cousins, some or all of them were geared for 90 mph, to enable them to be used in multiple formations of up to 12 cars on peak hour main line commuter expresses to and from the Kent Coast. Those passengers who had indulged in a pint or two after work would have to select their carriage carefully!

The last batch, built in the early 1960s, were fitted with Commonwealth trailer bogies, which gave a slight improvement to their somewhat lively ride.

HAPs were indeed 90mph units. A relatively little known fact is that there was a small batch of 90mph 4-EPBs too; don’t ask me which ones though. All I know is that they were SR design units.

I believe that the Tyneside stock had a 2.5 ton capacity guard's compartment. It was far bigger than the space on other SR suburban stock. Presumably, there was a lot of parcels traffic to deal with.

I believe it was fresh fish from the coast specifically.