Southern England EMU’S

[JonathanH]

A relatively little known fact is that there was a small batch of 90mph 4-EPBs too; don’t ask me which ones though. All I know is that they were SR design units.

Wasn't it the case that the 90mph SR-type 4-EPBs came about as a result of replacing EPB motor cars with motor cars out of withdrawn 2-HAP / 2-SAP units?

There were both SR and BR design 4-EPBs with express gear ratio.

https://www.bloodandcustard.com/sR-4epb.html

Also included in the facelift programme were the thirty-two remaining MBS cars from the SR type 2 HAP (later 2 SAP) units. These differed from true 4 EPB MBS cars by having a partition dividing the saloon into two of four bays each and giving a seating capacity of eighty-four (diagram 2130).

During facelifting this partition was removed, reducing the seating to eighty-two; making them standard with the 4 EPB vehicles. These ex. 2 SAP motorcoaches were all fitted with express gear ratio motor bogies and most were converted to suburban gear ratio during facelift overhaul. However, a few were not done resulting in some units initially retaining express gear ratio; subsequent bogie changes later eliminated this.

To provide trailers to run with these ex. 2 SAP MBS cars, thirty-three former 4 SUB trailers (all TSO cars except the two prototypes included in unit no.5263 which were TS cars converted to TSO) were converted to EP braking and were renumbered from 15449 upwards to 15481, (the additional trailer converted was to replace withdrawn 4 EPB trailer 15072). This programme was split between Eastleigh and Horwich works, thirty units being dealt with at Horwich (including all the ex. 2 SAP conversions except for prototype unit no.5263 done at Eastleigh) and all remaining units at Eastleigh.

BloodandCustard - 4 EPB (BR design)

Express Gear Ratio Units

Several units of the ‘phase I’ batch were fitted when new with express gear ratio, these motor bogies being recovered from their unsuccessful use under 3H and 6B DEMU units, and had Mark 3 roller‑bearing trailer bogies. However following problems with these bogies they were uprated to Mark 4 and exchanged with Mark 1 bogies from the earlier batches of 2 HAP units; these bogies then having modifications carried out and were uprated with additional dampers and springs to Mk 3C & Mk 3D.

Units 5301 ‑ 5320 eventually received the Mk 3D plain bearing version, whilst 5321 upwards had the Mk 3C roller bearing type. All units had two EE 507 motors in each motor coach, the subtype fitted being EE 507E (the SR type 4 EPB units had EE 507D motors whilst the 2 EPB units and all the 2 HAP fleet were mixed with both types). The units originally fitted with express gear ratio were 5303 ‑ 5312 and 5336 ‑ 5344, though this was altered quite quickly and units 5303 ‑ 5319 then had the express motors (5338 retained them also) though all were later fitted with suburban ratio motors during overhauls.

The final three facelift units (nos. 5623, 5624 & 5625) were fitted with express gear ratio motor bogies in January 1988 and used on main line trains to Ramsgate to increase seating capacity; these being reclassified as 4 EPB (E), Class 415/7. An increased requirement for further units of this type from October 1988 led to the conversion of units 5607, 5608 & 5609 which were renumbered as 5626, 5627 & 5628.

To distinguish these ‘Express’ units, a short length of cantrail band above each cabside was painted; initially red, but soon changed to green to avoid confusion with the red bands appearing on other EPB units denoting compartment accommodation.

Unit 5602 was the first to be painted into Network South East red/white/blue livery in February 1989 and all twenty five were eventually done. The 4 EPB (E) units reverted to use in the suburban area again from January 1993 and lost their cabside markings, though still retaining express gear ratios. Whilst in use on main line trains they were allocated to Ramsgate depot.

 

[Taunton]

I believe it was fresh fish from the coast specifically.

I have read differently, that it was space for "perambulators". Quite why the Tyneside system needed such extra provision is not apparent, but apparently the numbers pushing prams down to the coast at summer weekends made it worthwhile, separately, to convert whole vehicles in the 1950s, marshalled between the older LNER units. There were wooden seats for mama around the edge. Described towards the bottom here :

LNER Encyclopedia: The NER Tyneside Electric Multiple Units

 

[DustyBin]

Wasn't it the case that the 90mph SR-type 4-EPBs came about as a result of replacing EPB motor cars with motor cars out of withdrawn 2-HAP / 2-SAP units?

Yes you’re correct but they aren’t the units I was thinking of.

There were both SR and BR design 4-EPBs with express gear ratio.

I was referring to 5303-5312 and 5336-5344 which were express geared from new but which were of course BR design units. My mistake but thanks for the info!

I have read differently, that it was space for "perambulators". Quite why the Tyneside system needed such extra provision is not apparent, but apparently the numbers pushing prams down to the coast at summer weekends made it worthwhile, separately, to convert whole vehicles in the 1950s, marshalled between the older LNER units. There were wooden seats for mama around the edge. Described towards the bottom here :

LNER Encyclopedia: The NER Tyneside Electric Multiple Units

Further up the page it also mentions the fish traffic from the coast but as neither reference is in regard to the EPB units specifically one can only speculate. The perambulator compartments wouldn’t go amiss today come to think of it!

 

[yorksrob]

Wasn't it the case that the 90mph SR-type 4-EPBs came about as a result of replacing EPB motor cars with motor cars out of withdrawn 2-HAP / 2-SAP units?

There were both SR and BR design 4-EPBs with express gear ratio.

https://www.bloodandcustard.com/sR-4epb.html

BloodandCustard - 4 EPB (BR design)

It's a shame they got rid of so many HAP's in the 1980's !

 

[2192]

SR 4-sub EMU's also had large guards vans at each end. Some drivers would unlock the door in the morning rush hour in the 1950's to ease the crush and you could get quite a lot of standees in (I never counted them) who would of course be first through the barrier at the terminus. There were no grab rails or anything in event of a sudden brake, but I never heard of any accidents from this cause. Nor would commuters be likely to maliciously operate the brake.

 

[JonathanH]

It's a shame they got rid of so many HAP's in the 1980's !

It really isn't. The replacement stock had better passenger facilities (in most cases). Besides, didn't it just result in more stock for the suburban area if the motor vehicles released were available to augment the EPB stock.

I dont think anyone would argue that a pair of HAPs or a CAP was better than a VEP.

 

[yorksrob]

It really isn't. The replacement stock had better passenger facilities (in most cases). Besides, didn't it just result in more stock for the suburban area if the motor vehicles released were available to augment the EPB stock.

I dont think anyone would argue that a pair of HAPs or a CAP was better than a VEP.

But fifty HAP's would have been more suited to coastal services to Ramsgate In the late 1980's/Early 90's than twenty-five geared up EPB's without toilets or first class.

 

[JonathanH]

But fifty HAP's would have been more suited to coastal services to Ramsgate In the late 1980's/Early 90's than twenty-five geared up EPB's without toilets or first class.

Six wasn't it? It would be interesting to know what the overall formation was of the relevant trains - presumably 4EPB+8VEP, rather than 12EPB all that distance? A 4-EPB had more seats than a 4HAP formation if the priority was maximising seated accommodation and presumably the idea was to find something with the most standard class accommodation.

 

[yorksrob]

Six wasn't it? It would be interesting to know what the overall formation was of the relevant trains - presumably 4EPB+8VEP? A 4-EPB had more seats than a 4HAP formation if the priority was maximising seated accommodation and presumably the idea was to find something with the most standard class accommodation.

Started off as six, however it seems that they didn't have enough VEP's to cover the capacity requirements.

I assume that the EPB's were shoved at the end of an ordinary 8 carriage formation.

Incidentally, some HAP's made it back to Ramsgate in the early 90's.

 

[nlogax]

This raises something I'd never thought about before; to allow running of preserved EMUs without relying on a loco are there any lengths of 3rd rail in heritage land? Is it actually permitted, or are NR metals with juice rails the only place they can stretch their motors?

 

[30907]

SR 4-sub EMU's also had large guards vans at each end.

There's large and large. SR ones (and this applies to their hauled stock too) were almost the smallest size possible on an EMU, the Tyneside ones were 6ft longer.

 

[mike57]

Those passengers who had indulged in a pint or two after work would have to select their carriage carefully!

Reminds me of an uncomfortable journey from Portmouth to London, to return home to York. I had come off the Gosport Ferry, rushed past the toilets on the station as a train for London was about to leave and jumped in the first carriage. Horror... No toilet, there had been serious disruption and something without toilets had ended up as part of a Waterloo service. The disruption (cant remember why) was the reason I was keen to make the London train. A very uncomfortable start to the journey, managed to swap carriages to one that had a toilet at the next stop. (We had passed Portsmouth and Southsea whilst looking for said toilet, it was an open carriage, but no corridor). I think there may have been a flood alert in Hampshire after my visit

 

[D6130]

Gosforth Ferry,

Presumably Gosport!

 

[DustyBin]

It's a shame they got rid of so many HAP's in the 1980's !

On the subject of HAPs, I recall reading that at one point MLVs were prohibited from running on their own (possibly to do with braking or "gapping" issues?) and had to run with a HAP unit until the problem was resolved. Can anybody confirm this? Are there any details or photographs of such workings, presuming they did actually happen? I've seen photographs of some very unusual and interesting MLV workings but never of them coupled to a 2-HAP.

This raises something I'd never thought about before; to allow running of preserved EMUs without relying on a loco are there any lengths of 3rd rail in heritage land? Is it actually permitted, or are NR metals with juice rails the only place they can stretch their motors?

No there aren't any electrified preserved lines unfortunately. One of the issues is the safety of operating with a live third rail (does anybody know the minimum voltage a 750v DC EMU will operate on?). The closest I've came to travelling on a preserved EMU under it's own power was on the East Kent Railway where an MLV hauled a 2-EPB using power from it's traction batteries. In fairness it was reasonably "authentic", it certainly sounded right!

 

[mike57]

Presumably Gosport!

Yes well spotted, post edited, I had been visiting Cyanamid, dont know if they are still there, it was maybe 35 years ago

 

[Dr_Paul]

Wasn't it the case that the 90mph SR-type 4-EPBs came about as a result of replacing EPB motor cars with motor cars out of withdrawn 2-HAP / 2-SAP units? There were both SR and BR design 4-EPBs with express gear ratio.

The idea of doing 90mph in a 4-EPB is pretty scary, seeing how rough riding they could be at half that speed.

 

[Beebman]

It really isn't. The replacement stock had better passenger facilities (in most cases). Besides, didn't it just result in more stock for the suburban area if the motor vehicles released were available to augment the EPB stock.

I dont think anyone would argue that a pair of HAPs or a CAP was better than a VEP.

For a while in 1986/87 I was commuting between Winnersh Triangle and Waterloo, and my morning train was an 8-car HAP/VEP combo. My posterior definitely found the HAP seating to be more comfortable. (but admittedly the lack of a toilet in some vehicles wasn't really good.)

 

[Helvellyn]

Asbestos. The last two batches of HAPs were apparently riddled with the stuff, so once newer stock came along it was these that went in the resulting cascades because the older units (many formed up in pairs as the 4-CAPs) were cheaper to retain because they didn't need a costly frame up strip down and rebuild.

 

[contrex]

On the subject of HAPs, I recall reading that at one point MLVs were prohibited from running on their own (possibly to do with braking or "gapping" issues?) and had to run with a HAP unit until the problem was resolved. Can anybody confirm this? Are there any details or photographs of such workings, presuming they did actually happen? I've seen photographs of some very unusual and interesting MLV workings but never of them coupled to a 2-HAP.



No there aren't any electrified preserved lines unfortunately. One of the issues is the safety of operating with a live third rail (does anybody know the minimum voltage a 750v DC EMU will operate on?). The closest I've came to travelling on a preserved EMU under it's own power was on the East Kent Railway where an MLV hauled a 2-EPB using power from it's traction batteries. In fairness it was reasonably "authentic", it certainly sounded right!

I believe the braking problem with lone MLVs was that, as built, they only had one brake cylinder, with the rigging applying the brakes on both bogies. After a number of SPADS and a buffer stop collision at London Bridge when a brake cylinder defect had affected the braking performance, all were modified to divide the brake system in two by fitting another brake cylinder so a failure would only reduce braking ability by 50%. The units were 'blacked' by drivers for a while, and ran attached to 2-HAP 'runners' until the modifications were completed. MLVs were used to haul water tank wagons around Kent to supply BR establishments during times of water shortage. There are pictures on Blood and Custard of two ‘Jaffa Cake’ MLV vehicles hauling three bogie vans (GUVs), of another one coupled to a water tank, and of one coupled to a 2-HAP. Also the unique MLV supplied to Tyneside hauling crimson-and-cream liveried Maunsell coaches during testing on the SR. I think I once read that SR EMUs of this era had a 'low voltage' relay that tripped if the supply got down to 480 volts. When running on battery power the MLV motors were supplied with 200 volts, though, but even that would, I think, be ruled out for a third rail, for safety reasons, and the voltage drop in any useful length of rail would be horrific even if a unit could be made to run. The motor-generator sets want a nominal 650 volts.

 

[yorksrob]

Asbestos. The last two batches of HAPs were apparently riddled with the stuff, so once newer stock came along it was these that went in the resulting cascades because the older units (many formed up in pairs as the 4-CAPs) were cheaper to retain because they didn't need a costly frame up strip down and rebuild.

Ah yes, the old problem.

 

[DustyBin]

I believe the braking problem with lone MLVs was that, as built, they only had one brake cylinder, with the rigging applying the brakes on both bogies. After a number of SPADS and a buffer stop collision at London Bridge when a brake cylinder defect had affected the braking performance, all were modified to divide the brake system in two by fitting another brake cylinder so a failure would only reduce braking ability by 50%. The units were 'blacked' by drivers for a while, and ran attached to 2-HAP 'runners' until the modifications were completed. MLVs were used to haul water tank wagons around Kent to supply BR establishments during times of water shortage. There are pictures on Blood and Custard of two ‘Jaffa Cake’ MLV vehicles hauling three bogie vans (GUVs), of another one coupled to a water tank, and of one coupled to a 2-HAP. Also the unique MLV supplied to Tyneside hauling crimson-and-cream liveried Maunsell coaches during testing on the SR. I think I once read that SR EMUs of this era had a 'low voltage' relay that tripped if the supply got down to 480 volts. When running on battery power the MLV motors were supplied with 200 volts, though, but even that would, I think, be ruled out for a third rail, for safety reasons, and the voltage drop in any useful length of rail would be horrific even if a unit could be made to run. The motor-generator sets want a nominal 650 volts.

Interesting, thanks. I’ll have a look for the picture of the MLV coupled to the 2-HAP as I must have missed that; I’ve seen the others though. The Tyneside MLV had two motor bogies, a genuine EMU and loco combined!

 

[contrex]

Interesting, thanks. I’ll have a look for the picture of the MLV coupled to the 2-HAP as I must have missed that.

It's just above the section headed "CED Parcels Traffic & Modifications". Caption reads "MLV no.68010 leading 2 HAP no.6087 at Waterloo East on Friday, 15th August 1986 with the 06.43?hrs London Bridge (low level) to Charing Cross (having previously arrived from Redhill – the 2 HAP providing additional brake force). This was a Sundays-excepted positioning move where the three would be attached to the front of the 07.00hrs Charing Cross to Ramsgate - on this day it was 2 HAP + MLV + 4 CEP (rostered). At Ramsgate the 2 HAP & MLV were detached thence off to the depot."

 

[DustyBin]

It's just above the section headed "CED Parcels Traffic & Modifications". Caption reads "MLV no.68010 leading 2 HAP no.6087 at Waterloo East on Friday, 15th August 1986 with the 06.43?hrs London Bridge (low level) to Charing Cross (having previously arrived from Redhill – the 2 HAP providing additional brake force). This was a Sundays-excepted positioning move where the three would be attached to the front of the 07.00hrs Charing Cross to Ramsgate - on this day it was 2 HAP + MLV + 4 CEP (rostered). At Ramsgate the 2 HAP & MLV were detached thence off to the depot."

Found it, thanks. They've updated the site since I last visited, some of the photographs are new. The one of S68001 hauling brake vans and wagons on a test train in 1959 (on battery power at that point as well!) is very interesting. A good one to recreate if you have a model railway!

 

[D6130]

It's just above the section headed "CED Parcels Traffic & Modifications". Caption reads "MLV no.68010 leading 2 HAP no.6087 at Waterloo East on Friday, 15th August 1986 with the 06.43?hrs London Bridge (low level) to Charing Cross (having previously arrived from Redhill – the 2 HAP providing additional brake force). This was a Sundays-excepted positioning move where the three would be attached to the front of the 07.00hrs Charing Cross to Ramsgate - on this day it was 2 HAP + MLV + 4 CEP (rostered). At Ramsgate the 2 HAP & MLV were detached thence off to the depot."

I think that this temporary arrangement may have resulted from an incident a short time earlier at Redhill, in which the MLV forming the evening mail service to London Bridge was required to shunt from the mail dock to platform 1 to pick up mail connecting from Tonbridge (?). Unfortunately, after setting off into the headshunt, it failed to stop at the buffers and ended-up down the embankment at a steep angle, with one end blocking the road below. The unfortunate driver was concussed and wandered away from the scene, being missing for several hours while a police search party was trying to find them. I recall passing the scene the following day, while working a Victoria-Brighton semi-fast - while the derailed MLV was still lying there - but, unfortunately, I can't remember the MLV's number....and I haven't yet found my notebooks for 1986.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I’m sure it was applied to at least one MLV as well.

Further to the excellent list posted by @norbitonflyer it’s maybe worth pointing out that some 4-SUB and 2-HAL units were built post-war. In fact one could argue that the Bulleid design units should actually be in the post-war category, particularly the 2-HALs which weren’t introduced until 1948 IIRC.

My post now edited to reflect this. I tend to divide them into types that had been withdrawn before I came back to London, and those still in service then, and types introduced subsequently. The second category is basically all EP stock plus the all-steel SUBs.

But then there was the unique 8Vab with 3 Vep power cars and a Buffet and could sub for a 4-Rep plus 4-TC...V for Vep, B for Buffet, but where did the A come from?

8VAB - I think was Vep Additional Buffet.
SAP was, I believe, Second class only (former) hAP

Wasn't there an 8MIG for a short while, formed of the buffet car formerly used in the VAB sandwiched (if you'll forgive the pun) between two CIGs, one with a trailer car removed?

But then there was the unique 8Vab with 3 Vep power cars and a Buffet and could sub for a 4-Rep plus 4-TC...V for Vep, B for Buffet, but where did the A come from?

8VAB - I think was Vep Additional Buffet.
SAP was, I believe, Second class only (former) hAP

Wasn't there an 8MIG for a short while, formed of the buffet car formerly used in the VAB sandwiched (if you'll forgive the pun) between two CIGs, one with a trailer car removed?

However, the term '4SUB' was also applied to units of a earlier generation when augmented with new trailer cars during the war

Not all of them had new trailers - a lot of the inserted trailers had a previous existence in the 2-car trailer sets that used to operate between two 3SUBs to make up eight coach trains. It may have been the more arduous operating conditions of war which finally made the SR do what seems obvious to us now,and reform them from M-T-M + T-T + M-T-M to M-T-T-M + M-T-T-M, so avoiding the need to shunt trailer units about. Apparently the last lines to operate 3SUBs were the Caterham/Tattenham services as the one of the branches couldn't take 4-car trains, so the peak hour trains ran as 9-car to Purley and then divided 6 and 3. Once the platforms were extended this became 4+4

 

[Beebman]

There's some info on the 8MIG sets about a third of the way down this page:

https://www.bloodandcustard.com/BR-4CIG.html

 

[StephenHunter]

On the subject of HAPs, I recall reading that at one point MLVs were prohibited from running on their own (possibly to do with braking or "gapping" issues?) and had to run with a HAP unit until the problem was resolved. Can anybody confirm this? Are there any details or photographs of such workings, presuming they did actually happen? I've seen photographs of some very unusual and interesting MLV workings but never of them coupled to a 2-HAP.



No there aren't any electrified preserved lines unfortunately. One of the issues is the safety of operating with a live third rail (does anybody know the minimum voltage a 750v DC EMU will operate on?). The closest I've came to travelling on a preserved EMU under it's own power was on the East Kent Railway where an MLV hauled a 2-EPB using power from it's traction batteries. In fairness it was reasonably "authentic", it certainly sounded right!

The Bluebell has been considering re-electrifying the Ardingly branch, but you're talking 2030 at the earliest for that.

 

[73128]

My 1983 Ian Allan ABC lists them variously in the format 4-SUB or 4SUB (etc.)

In addition to those listed above, it includes:

• 4CAP - Coastway conversions from 2HAP
• 2SAP - Semi-open (?) conversions from 2HAP and
• 4VEG - Gatwick conversions from 4VEP with extra luggage space

When you get to acronyms apparently standing for Coastway hAlf Pneumatic and Vestibule Electro Gatwick, I'd suggest the convention has rather broken down

2SAP were standard class only (1st declassified) for the suburban area, notably on the SWD Windsor & Weybridge services.

CAP were permanently coupled pairs of 2HAPs for the Coastway services (Ore-Brighton-Portsmouth).

 

[Beebman]

2SAP were standard class only (1st declassified) for the suburban area, notably on the SWD Windsor & Weybridge services.

CAP were permanently coupled pairs of 2HAPs for the Coastway services (Ore-Brighton-Portsmouth).

There were two different types and operating areas of 2SAPs. Firstly in the mid 1970s some BR-type 2HAPs were declassified and used on the SW Division (not just on suburban routes, I remember seeing one at Lymington Pier). They reverted to 2HAPs around 1980. Then in the late 1970s the SR-type 2HAPs were all declassified and used on the Central Division as 2 SAPs until their withdrawal. (I once travelled on one from Streatham Hill to Victoria.)

 

[contrex]

Then in the late 1970s the SR-type 2HAPs were all declassified and used on the Central Division as 2 SAPs until their withdrawal. (I once travelled on one from Streatham Hill to Victoria.)

There's a video on Youtube recorded at Holborn Viaduct station on the morning of Friday 26 January 1990, the last day it was open for traffic. Some SAPs visible.