TfW found to be worst TOC in the UK

[allaction]

It is frustrating when you're waiting for a delayed TfW train or your train's been cancelled and the reason usually given at the station is 'a problem currently investigation' when it's actually because there's a shortage of crew or "resource availability" as TfW label it. I understand the Unions requested TfW not use 'a shortage of train crew' but TfW surely need to come up with something better because "resource availability" cannot be 'a problem currently under investigation' if the cause of the problem is known!

‘Train crew availability’ was read out on the travel and traffic report on BBC Radio Wales today as the reason for service cancellations on the Valleys lines. Hope the Unions weren’t listening…

ill watch with bated breath Pembroke dock branch for instance is getting its late trains and trains to Swansea again requiring 4 units i believe but i dont hold my breath as to this working well

The Pembroke Dock route is getting its late train back, but the cancellation of the 1900 or so service from Carmarthen means that there is now a 4 hours gap on the route between 1700 and 2100.

The cancelled service, which pre-Covid originated in Manchester was incredibly handy with 1700 and 1800 stops in Cardiff and Swansea respectively for leisure and business travellers.

Does anyone know why it’s been withdrawn, please?

There’s still a connection at Carmarthen for Milford Haven so why not for Tenby and the Dock?
I’ve got the Tenby Observer newspaper on to it, so expect action….!

 

[Cardiff123]

Forcing staff to work on there rest days isn't viable, the bus option is better but needs lots of logistical planning.
Tfw ran buses alongside 2 car units along the n Wales coast over the summer, the passengers were not happy at all.

And where do you think they are going to find all those buses and their crews?

So what is the alternative? If TfW know it's highly likely they will have to cancel nearly all services again for the next two weekends, thèn they either scramble together whatever limited replacement road transport they can, or they literally cancel all Valley lines services in advance for the next two weekends and issue a strict 'do not travel' notice, so people can plan accordingly.

 

[wobman]

So what is the alternative? If TfW know it's highly likely they will have to cancel nearly all services again for the next two weekends, thèn they either scramble together whatever limited replacement road transport they can, or they literally cancel all Valley lines services in advance for the next two weekends and issue a strict 'do not travel' notice, so people can plan accordingly.

Maybe advice people to travel in earlier and not all at the same time, the same for returning. People always get the last train back, not all services are cancelled just a few.
You can't force staff to work on there days off or move days off without asking, it would cause chaos for rostering and the backlash woukd be immense.

 

[Llanigraham]

So what is the alternative? If TfW know it's highly likely they will have to cancel nearly all services again for the next two weekends, thèn they either scramble together whatever limited replacement road transport they can, or they literally cancel all Valley lines services in advance for the next two weekends and issue a strict 'do not travel' notice, so people can plan accordingly.

Unfortunately there is no alternative at the moment, as has been explained in this thread numerous times, often by TfW staff.
What do yiou propose; that untrained staff take out trains? That damaged trains are sent out? That all annual leave is banned? That sick members of staff at told to attend?
And yes if neccesary, people are told "Do Not Travel".

 

[Caaardiff]

Forcing staff to work on there rest days isn't viable, the bus option is better but needs lots of logistical planning.
Tfw ran buses alongside 2 car units along the n Wales coast over the summer, the passengers were not happy at all.

No-one is forcing people to take overtime. The overtime is there, if it doesn't get taken then the train gets cancelled. The notion of having weekends, especially sundays, not part of the working week is outdated for the railway and needs to be addressed. This is nothing new, it happens every year, but is going to be more prominent this year because of the extra shortages of crews over the network.

TfW should just book in a load of fast & stopping replacement buses for the Valleys now rather than announcing a long list of cancellations on the day and leaving people stranded. At least then people can plan. Because if there's a weekend that train crew are not going to want to work overtime, it will be that one.

Bus and taxi companies are facing a huge shortage of driver across the whole of the UK. There's only limited buses available.
It's going to be a messy weekend.

 

[wobman]

No-one is forcing people to take overtime. The overtime is there, if it doesn't get taken then the train gets cancelled. The notion of having weekends, especially sundays, not part of the working week is outdated for the railway and needs to be addressed. This is nothing new, it happens every year, but is going to be more prominent this year because of the extra shortages of crews over the network.


Bus and taxi companies are facing a huge shortage of driver across the whole of the UK. There's only limited buses available.
It's going to be a messy weekend.

But Saturday is part of the working week as are bank Holidays, tfw are planning in the future to have Sunday as part of the working week. It doesn't happen overnight, that's why there's such a huge recruitment drive.

Training up the much needed traincrew has been delayed by the pandemic, the training was restricted by the covid restrictions. It's full steam ahead now but unfortunately it takes time.

If the company offered double time maybe more would work rest days but then the traincrew would be called greedy by some posters. There's no simple solutions unfortunately.

 

[DorkingMain]

But Saturday is part of the working week as are bank Holidays, tfw are planning in the future to have Sunday as part of the working week. It doesn't happen overnight, that's why there's such a huge recruitment drive.

Training up the much needed traincrew has been delayed by the pandemic, the training was restricted by the covid restrictions. It's full steam ahead now but unfortunately it takes time.

If the company offered double time maybe more would work rest days but then the traincrew would be called greedy by some posters. There's no simple solutions unfortunately.

Easy to forget also that Sundays outside arrangements are again done for the benefit of companies who want to employ fewer staff + they don't have to pay crew to sit spare if no trains are running due to engineering works.

 

[wobman]

Easy to forget also that Sundays outside arrangements are again done for the benefit of companies who want to employ fewer staff + they don't have to pay crew to sit spare if no trains are running due to engineering works.

I know the toc would require more traincrew and station staff if Sunday is part of the working week and tocs want to keep costs down.
People blame the staff for not being in work, but they work their committed Sunday on overtime but unlike Monday to Saturday the rostas have no spare lines / staff.
The spares are needed to cover sickness and leave etc so the link needs quite a lot of volunteers to cover the vacant work, if the volunteers are not there jobs are uncovered as a result.

People blame the staff but it's the flawed Sunday agreements devised by tocs, the costs for covering Sundays will rise if more staff are employed and people forget this.

 

[jettofab]

No-one is forcing people to take overtime. The overtime is there, if it doesn't get taken then the train gets cancelled. The notion of having weekends, especially sundays, not part of the working week is outdated for the railway and needs to be addressed. This is nothing new, it happens every year, but is going to be more prominent this year because of the extra shortages of crews over the network.


Bus and taxi companies are facing a huge shortage of driver across the whole of the UK. There's only limited buses available.
It's going to be a messy weekend.

You suggested forcibly moving train crew rest days although you've since deleted that so perhaps you've realised how completely unreasonable (and impossible) that would be. Saturdays are part of the working week, same as Mon-Fri, but you must be able to see that they are more popular for leave due to outside commitments and the fact that most of the country operates on those being days off. Staff take the job knowing they are expected to work Saturdays (and committed Sundays) but also knowing they are as entitled to use their leave as anyone in any other industry. Equally, train crew who are off don't really want to give up their Saturdays, same as I'm sure most people in other industries wouldn't.

Your frustration seems to be at staff and particularly unions but as has been said, front line staff don't design the diagrams, the depot establishment, the training processes, aslef want sundays in the week and train crew can't be expected to tell you why TFW aren't making public announcements, because they don't know.

 

[Cardiff123]

Unfortunately there is no alternative at the moment, as has been explained in this thread numerous times, often by TfW staff.
What do yiou propose; that untrained staff take out trains? That damaged trains are sent out? That all annual leave is banned? That sick members of staff at told to attend?
And yes if neccesary, people are told "Do Not Travel".

I haven't suggested any of those things. To give passengers certainty over the next two busy weekends, when it's highly likely many services will be cancelled due to crew shortages, I suggested that TfW either arrange whatever replacement road transport in advance that they can to cover cancelled services, or if this isn't possible, rather than issuing 100s of ad-hoc full and part cancellations at the start of the day, give advance notice for the next two weekends that everything will be cancelled and tell passengers not to travel by train on affected routes and make other arrangements, as TfW won't have enough staff to provide a service.

 

[baza585]

Now that the Welsh Government don't have a contractor Keolis Amey to blame for the poor performance, they seem to have gone very quiet. What a surprise.

A gentle reminder to those who advocate nationalisation as the answer to the railway's ills that it doesn't solve anything.


If anything performance has got worse under Government control. Not quite the world class service Ken Skates was waxing lyrical about is it. Third world possibly..........

 

[TravelDream]

If anything performance has got worse under Government control. Not quite the world class service Ken Skates was waxing lyrical about is it. Third world possibly..........

As said above, let's see what 2023 brings.

Some people on here seem to think that Rome was built in a day. It wasn't. Especially after decades of very little investment.

That's not to say I am happy about the level of cancellations, but it can't all be blamed on 'nationalisation'.

 

[baza585]

As said above, let's see what 2023 brings.

Some people on here seem to think that Rome was built in a day. It wasn't. Especially after decades of very little investment.

That's not to say I am happy about the level of cancellations, but it can't all be blamed on 'nationalisation'.

I hope you are right about 2023.

That said, TfW has been in charge since February and performance has got much worse since then. I wasn't blaming all the problems on nationalisation, but not much else has changed!

At least Ken Skates has moved on, possibly to his relief...

 

[Cardiff123]

Now that the Welsh Government don't have a contractor Keolis Amey to blame for the poor performance, they seem to have gone very quiet. What a surprise.

A gentle reminder to those who advocate nationalisation as the answer to the railway's ills that it doesn't solve anything.


If anything performance has got worse under Government control. Not quite the world class service Ken Skates was waxing lyrical about is it. Third world possibly..........

I hope you are right about 2023.

That said, TfW has been in charge since February and performance has got much worse since then. I wasn't blaming all the problems on nationalisation, but not much else has changed!

At least Ken Skates has moved on, possibly to his relief...

I've been critical of the way that TfW have communicated the current problems to the public, but TfW's current problems have not been caused by nationalisation, as has already been explained in this thread. If Keolis Amey were still in charge, they would currently be facing exactly the same issues.

The current crisis has been caused by factors outside of TfW's control. Scrapping of 30 Pacers, with the 769s brought into replace them being a disaster. The 230s not even in service yet. A completely knackered and tired fleet needing constant repairs. Drivers and guards retiring, and a massive training backlog of new train crew because of a global pandemic. Keolis Amey would be facing these exact same issues if they were still in charge.

What I think TfW should be doing is communicating this to the public instead of staying silent. And when they know that it's highly likely on a weekend they will struggle to run a service on some routes, advertise this in advance so people planning to travel can make other arrangements, rather than being left stranded by last minute cancellations

 

[tomuk]

The current crisis has been caused by factors outside of TfW's control. Scrapping of 30 Pacers, with the 769s brought into replace them being a disaster. The 230s not even in service yet. A completely knackered and tired fleet needing constant repairs. Drivers and guards retiring, and a massive training backlog of new train crew because of a global pandemic. Keolis Amey would be facing these exact same issues if they were still in charge.

No they knew the pacers were going and they knew the age of the stock stop making excuses TfW (WG) just aren't very good at procurring or running trains.

 

[mmh]

The current crisis has been caused by factors outside of TfW's control. Scrapping of 30 Pacers, with the 769s brought into replace them being a disaster. The 230s not even in service yet. A completely knackered and tired fleet needing constant repairs. Drivers and guards retiring, and a massive training backlog of new train crew because of a global pandemic. Keolis Amey would be facing these exact same issues if they were still in charge.

Loads of it is in their control. Class 150 Holyhead to Birmingham? Of course it's going to be late and just get later.

 

[sd0733]

Loads of it is in their control. Class 150 Holyhead to Birmingham? Of course it's going to be late and just get later.

If theres a shortage of 158s, which there regularly is, it's really a 150, pair of 153s or cancel so a 75mph unit whilst far from ideal is currently the least bad option. The same happens on other routes too it's not isolated to Holyhead to Birmingham unfortunately

 

[wobman]

No they knew the pacers were going and they knew the age of the stock stop making excuses TfW (WG) just aren't very good at procurring or running trains.

Tfw inherited these issues, they ordered new trains ASAP, the 230's and 769s if they had worked as planned they woukd have freed up units for other services. Tfw couldn't order new units if there not in control of the franchise, the franchise is put out to tender and once KA were awarded the franchise they ordered fleets of new rolling stock. Tfw have even ordered extra Mk4s for the Cardiff to Manchester route, it all takes time unfortunately.

 

[wobman]

Loads of it is in their control. Class 150 Holyhead to Birmingham? Of course it's going to be late and just get later.

There is 12 units damaged and out of service since the storm, that has a big impact

 

[mmh]

If theres a shortage of 158s, which there regularly is, it's really a 150, pair of 153s or cancel so a 75mph unit whilst far from ideal is currently the least bad option. The same happens on other routes too it's not isolated to Holyhead to Birmingham unfortunately

I'm afraid I have little sympathy for them. My train today was 2x175 with the rear unit out of service, but no announcements anywhere to say this, so it was delayed at every station. Yesterday it was a 158+150. The 158 detached and carried on, and a 153 then attached to to the 150. I'm afraid it is really pitiful.

I'm starting to sense the staff have had enough too. I've always defended them as the most friendly, open and helpful railway staff I've ever come across, for decades. That seems to be disappearing into the "what do you want, not my problem mate" approach which while I've seen elsewhere has never before been an issue in North Wales.

 

[Cardiff123]

No they knew the pacers were going and they knew the age of the stock stop making excuses TfW (WG) just aren't very good at procurring or running trains.

And the trains ordered as a stop gap to replace the Pacers until new trains arrive, the 769s and 230s, have been a failiure. That's nothing to do with TfW, Keolis Amey or Welsh Govt and everything to do with Porterbrook and Vivarail.

Plus see wobman's post above.

 

[mmh]

And the trains ordered as a stop gap to replace the Pacers until new trains arrive, the 769s and 230s, have been a failiure. That's nothing to do with TfW, Keolis Amey or Welsh Govt and everything to do with Porterbrook and Vivarail.

Plus see wobman's post above.

I disagree, what was needed was any old train, but they went down what's been proved to be the silly rabbit hole of entertaining experimental recycling of old trains. That's the fault of one or more of them - somebody made that decision.

 

[tomuk]

Tfw inherited these issues, they ordered new trains ASAP, the 230's and 769s if they had worked as planned they woukd have freed up units for other services. Tfw couldn't order new units if there not in control of the franchise, the franchise is put out to tender and once KA were awarded the franchise they ordered fleets of new rolling stock. Tfw have even ordered extra Mk4s for the Cardiff to Manchester route, it all takes time unfortunately.

The service since KA/TfW have taken over in 2018 has declined even before the pacers left it appears that Arriva could run a better service within the constraints they had than KA/TfW can. All these inherited issues they knew about and Ken Skates and the WG repeatedly brushed them off and left them to the new franchise and jam tomorrow. Porterbrook pushed repeatedly for the PRM work to be done and at one point proposed they would pay for it if the WG would just agree to continue to lease the 150s for period during the new franchise they wouldn't even agree to that. How long will the 150s be in service for 2024/2025?

There were various ways the WG could of made changes to the existing franchise and in some cases they did, Mk3s and extra 150s, but as the new franchised approached they appeared to be become more entrenched in their blinkered South Wales Metro for South Wales people nonsense.

And the trains ordered as a stop gap to replace the Pacers until new trains arrive, the 769s and 230s, have been a failiure. That's nothing to do with TfW, Keolis Amey or Welsh Govt and everything to do with Porterbrook and Vivarail.

Plus see wobman's post above.

On the 769s they could have kept some Pacers in service longer, not taken 150s,158s and even 175s out of service for repaints allowing more time for better testing to sort them out. On the 230s I'm not a fan and they should have run a mile, old underground stock refurbed by some blokes in a tent in deepest Warwickshire, what could possibly of gone wrong?

 

[Cardiff123]

I disagree, what was needed was any old train, but they went down what's been proved to be the silly rabbit hole of entertaining experimental recycling of old trains. That's the fault of one or more of them - somebody made that decision.

No, what was needed was DMUs compliant with the Welsh network, PRM compliant to run past 31/12/2019, and trains that could run specifically on the Valleys. That excluded any DMUs with carriages over 20m, so it came down to 150s being the only realistic option, which there were none going spare, or the 769s, which at the time in 2017 were being sold as a 'quick fix' for Britain's DMU shortage by Porterbrook and had the full amd enthusiastic backing of the DfT and the SoS Chris Grayling.

If you can point me towards the pile of surplus DMUs that were going spare in Britain 5+ years ago I'd be interested to find out where they're were.

 

[tomuk]

PRM compliant to run past 31/12/2019,

There is still non PRM compliant stock running now, unrefurbed 153s in Lincolnshire for example.

 

[mmh]

No, what was needed was DMUs compliant with the Welsh network, PRM compliant to run past 31/12/2019, and trains that could run specifically on the Valleys. That excluded any DMUs with carriages over 20m, so it came down to 150s being the only realistic option, which there were none going spare, or the 769s, which at the time in 2017 were being sold as a 'quick fix' for Britain's DMU shortage by Porterbrook and had the full amd enthusiastic backing of the DfT and the SoS Chris Grayling.

If you can point me towards the pile of surplus DMUs that were going spare in Britain 5+ years ago I'd be interested to find out where they're were.

Fine, I have no idea what the length restrictions in the South are. If only 20m coaches can be used (why?) then why on earth are they using them up here where anything is OK?

 

[anthony263]

TfW should just book in a load of fast & stopping replacement buses for the Valleys now rather than announcing a long list of cancellations on the day and leaving people stranded. At least then people can plan. Because if there's a weekend that train crew are not going to want to work overtime, it will be that one.

Good luck we are already struggling covering our own work.

We are working flat out. I got a young daughter now and I'm older than I used to be so I cant do as much overtime as I used too. Job is stressful enough now we don't need more work chucked on us. Tfw could pay stagecoach to put deckers on the T4/X4 especially between merthyr and Cardiff.

 

[mmh]

If you can point me towards the pile of surplus DMUs that were going spare in Britain 5+ years ago I'd be interested to find out where they're were.

Doesn't need to be a DMU. North Wales was predominantly run loco+coaches years after that had disappeared elsewhere. Countless ones of those were available.

Good luck we are already struggling covering our own work.

We are working flat out. I got a young daughter now and I'm older than I used to be so I cant do as much overtime as I used too. Job is stressful enough now we don't need more work chucked on us. Tfw could pay stagecoach to put deckers on the T4/X4 especially between merthyr and Cardiff.

It's a recurring theme on the forum that some people seem to think there is a never ending supply of buses, bus drivers, taxis, and taxi drivers.

Those of us with any connection to the bus and taxi trades know how daft that is, but it still persists!

 

[wobman]

I disagree, what was needed was any old train, but they went down what's been proved to be the silly rabbit hole of entertaining experimental recycling of old trains. That's the fault of one or more of them - somebody made that decision.

I can't defend the signing the 230's contract but I see why they did, they were blinded by the idea of a nice shiny eco trains straight out of the box ! The 769s was more complicated but it was another poorly thought out idea.

Unfortunately there's just no other DMUS out there going spare to get hold of, loco and stock is often talked about but look at the Mk4s reliability lately.....

 

[WelshBluebird]

Yes, the current issues themselves are mostly not TfWs fault. But how those issues are impacting passengers largely is TfWs fault. What they should be doing is organising an emergency timetable that actually matches the resources they have so people can actually plan. What they should be doing is actually explaining the causes of the issues and what they are doing to alleviate them rather than hiding behind "resource availability".

Now thankfully it does seem like TfW have started taking steps in the right directions on both points. But why on earth has it taken till now?