TfW found to be worst TOC in the UK

[wobman]

I can't be the only person thinking how on earth can they hope to run a 4 train per head of the valley service in 2 years time when they can't even run an 1 train an hour service right now. Where are the staff going to come from?


I mean it's either we don't have enough staff or we don't have enough trains. Or both. It isnt that complicated.

There's a huge ongoing recruitment drive, there's continuous traing of traincrew all next year. Plus new fleets of trains starting in service next year, as things are it's both a shortage of staff and units.

 

[tomuk]

There's a huge ongoing recruitment drive, there's continuous traing of traincrew all next year. Plus new fleets of trains starting in service next year, as things are it's both a shortage of staff and units.

And being completely mismanaged by TfW. Where is the communication with passengers? We don't want to hear how 'world class' it will be in 18 months.
On stock shortages, Why were the pacers withdrawn as soon as they were, they could have been kept on to allow for work on other stock. Did the 158s need a refresh so soon after the PRM work? Same for the 150s do they need to be refreshed into Tfw colours? Wouldn't it be better for them to be in service rather than being out of service being painted? Where is the the pressure on Wabtec/Porterbrook or VivaRail to sort out the 769s and 230s?

 

[Francis]

It's only -1 by the public timetable, it's +4 by the working timetable. Strictly speaking it's not a turnaround either, since it carries on in the same direction, and even at that time of night, I doubt there's enough slack to leave a train sitting on the through lines at Piccadilly for any length of time. However, given the distance the inbound train has come, I would guess the chances of the continuation to Chester leaving on time are pretty remote. There's a limit to how much assets can / should be "sweated" and I suspect that some TOCs passed that point long ago (or would have done if it hadn't been for C***D!)

I remember arriving at Piccadilly on this train from South Wales. It was timed to take 16 minutes in from Stockport, which must have included a chunk of recovery time. Piccadilly-Stockport is usually timed at what? 8-9 minutes?
Anyway, we terminated at Piccadilly, final stop, due 2214 I think.
All please get off. Only to find other people anxious to jump on. Within two minutes the train had shot off towards Oxford Road. Only by looking at the departure board could one see it had instantly tranformed itself into the 2212 to Chester via Warrington Bank Quay.
This was a train which had discovered time travel, departing before it had arrived.

 

[wobman]

And being completely mismanaged by TfW. Where is the communication with passengers? We don't want to hear how 'world class' it will be in 18 months.
On stock shortages, Why were the pacers withdrawn as soon as they were, they could have been kept on to allow for work on other stock. Did the 158s need a refresh so soon after the PRM work? Same for the 150s do they need to be refreshed into Tfw colours? Wouldn't it be better for them to be in service rather than being out of service being painted? Where is the the pressure on Wabtec/Porterbrook or VivaRail to sort out the 769s and 230s?

The pacers withdrawal was a dft decision, Northern had to do the same.
I think the refreshing of stock is quite baffling when there's new rolling stock arriving next year, I do wonder why the roscos are paying for the work if the units are leaving tfw !
Regarding the the 769s and 230's they haven't been very successful and hopefully lessons will be learnt from these units.....

 

[Cardiff123]

I mean it's either we don't have enough staff or we don't have enough trains. Or both. It isnt that complicated.

Given the age of TfW's fleet, and the fact the fleet is knackered, along with the 769s being a disaster, it's both. But the overwhelming problem right now it seems is critical staff shortages.

It's a very complicated problem, saying resource availability is far easier.

I disagree. Too complicated to explain on twitter maybe, but TfW at least need to issue a public apology and the current problems can easily be explained in a short article on the TfW website, written by a TfW manager. The poor admins on TfW Twitter can then link to this article when they are replying to angry abuse and rants from passengers.

IIRC, ATW faced similar mass cancellations one winter in the last years their franchise, and they issued a public apology. By staying silent and blaming all cancellations on "resource availability", TfW are giving the impression that they simply don't care about the enormous inconvenience they are causing to passengers that rely on their services right now

 

[Caaardiff]

There is a serious issue with "resource availability" that doesn't seem to be improving. If anything, judging by todays cancellations, it's getting worse.
Blame covid all you want, TfW have been too complacent. Covid started nearly 2 years ago and now they are struggling with train crew numbers. Surely not that many people have left/retired over the past 2 years and they've been unable to train the same amount of people to cover service. How long does a training program take? How many trainers are doing training?
It's unacceptable and I fully agree that TfW management have been terrible in communicating with the traveling public.
They either do whatever they can to get enough units and train crew out in service, or pull the plug on some routes to ease the pressure.
Cardiff Bay and Coryton services have had entire services for the whole day pulled over recent days and there's still been huge amount of cancellations over other Valleys services.

 

[mrd269697]

One thing that also concerns me is the staff on stations and on trains, who’ve provided a wonderful service and worked hard and they aren’t going to be getting any sympathy from disgruntled passengers. When a train advertised to stop at Conwy (according to the electronic display) in June flew past (‘Covid’ wouldn’t allow a 4 car train to stop as the guard would had to get out the cab) and left 15 people stranded, I phoned their customer services to ask what we were all supposed to do, and why if it wasn’t going to stop why this wasn’t advertised. The lady was sympathetic saying it was terribly managed and I was with her saying I work in the industry and it’s annoying when the faults of those at the top put the public ire directly onto the frontline staff.

 

[DorkingMain]

Blame covid all you want, TfW have been too complacent. Covid started nearly 2 years ago and now they are struggling with train crew numbers. Surely not that many people have left/retired over the past 2 years and they've been unable to train the same amount of people to cover service. How long does a training program take? How many trainers are doing training?

Depending on the depot - it takes loads of new recruits just to maintain staffing levels. People become unwell, people get sacked, people move elsewhere - over two years I'd estimate across the TOC crew leaving would be in the triple figures.

Guards will take about 2-4 months to train, depending on the type of work they're doing, and the number of routes they sign. Drivers easily take many more months than that.

Can't speak for TfW but at my TOC they're desperately short of trainers, and have started pretty much begging anyone with a suitable amount of experience and clean record to do it. Again, as people leave due to ill health and age you lose the experience, and in locations with a high average age that can happen all at once (see the thread on XC for similar issues)

It's probably also worth noting that agreed establishments at most depots are generally quite tight when it comes to the number of staff needed to run a full service. Staff like this because it means more overtime at higher rates, and the companies like it because they have to hire and look after fewer staff. It does, however, boil over very quickly in a crisis situation.

 

[Dai Corner]

It's probably also worth noting that agreed establishments at most depots are generally quite tight when it comes to the number of staff needed to run a full service. Staff like this because it means more overtime at higher rates, and the companies like it because they have to hire and look after fewer staff. It does, however, boil over very quickly in a crisis situation.

So an honest reason to give for a cancellation might be 'Nobody who knows how to work this type of train over this route felt like working today'?

 

[the sniper]

So an honest reason to give for a cancellation might be 'Nobody who knows how to work this type of train over this route felt like working today'?

Few staff felt like volunteering to work their occasional Saturday rest day, in the often hellish run up to Christmas, might be more accurate.

 

[Caaardiff]

Few staff felt like volunteering to work their occasional Saturday rest day, in the often hellish run up to Christmas, might be more accurate.

It's probably also worth noting that agreed establishments at most depots are generally quite tight when it comes to the number of staff needed to run a full service. Staff like this because it means more overtime at higher rates, and the companies like it because they have to hire and look after fewer staff. It does, however, boil over very quickly in a crisis situation.

Which is exactly what is wrong with UK railways. They are run for the train crew, not the passenger.
Any other business would have enough people employed to cover the operational running of the business. Overtime should be available as and when needed due to shortfalls, and is only offered on an availability basis, not an entitlement basis.

 

[tomuk]

The pacers withdrawal was a dft decision, Northern had to do the same.

No it wasn't a decision by DFT it was implementing European wide EU TSIs. Our government/parliament decided to gold plate the EU rule and make it apply to all stock not just new/modified stock. There is a system of exemptions and TfW could have kept the Pacers in service longer if it wanted. But the Pacer replacement had become political so Northern/TfN celebrated their withdrawal and replacement with 195s as part of the new devolved franchise. Same with TfW it was good PR but unlike Northern the new stock hadn't arrived yet.

 

[the sniper]

Which is exactly what is wrong with UK railways. They are run for the train crew, not the passenger.
Any other business would have enough people employed to cover the operational running of the business. Overtime should be available as and when needed due to shortfalls, and is only offered on an availability basis, not an entitlement basis.

Funny to see that's what you took from DorkingMain's post...

But the forum has led me to believe that the unions are always for employing more people, because it means more subs/income for the union...?

Regardless, must be the fault of the unions/staff, there's simply no other explanation you could understand.

 

[seagull]

"A train company not employing enough staff is because it's run for the benefit of the train crew."

*facepalms*

Many train crew actually look forward to their days off just like workers in other industries. Many train crew have families or other commitments, yes, even volunteering for charities in their free time, which prevent them working those days off even if they wanted to.
So, with some exceptions (there's always the "money men" in any job) most would be quite happy with more staff employed if needed.

However, staffing is worked out on something like 2.2 people employed per weekly diagrammed rostered turn, to cover for sickness, training and leave.

Where this falls apart is when people leave at short notice to join other companies (9 months' training but only 4 weeks' notice required at many train companies). Or when a badly thought out roster causes high fatigue and thus high incidents, with crew then off duty under investigation. Or when a pandemic arrives and halts all training for many months (and remember that in this case, Wales has greater restrictions still, too). Or when new trains arrive and all drivers need training handling on them, but there are hardly any instructors left. Etc.

All of which can and should be communicated by TfW management to the public in a concise and simple way, although one does wonder whether it would be simply dismissed as "train crew fault" anyway...

 

[Caaardiff]

Funny to see that's what you took from DorkingMain's post...

But the forum has led me to believe that the unions are always for employing more people, because it means more subs/income for the union...?

Regardless, must be the fault of the unions/staff, there's simply no other explanation you could understand.

Yes. 'Agreed establishments at most depots are generally quite tight'
Surely its the unions that agree to it? If its too tight then why don't think reject the numbers and encourage more to be employed at each depot?

This setup clearly doesn't work as when overtime isnt taken, as does happen every year and at most TOCs, it descends into chaos and the passenger suffers.
Train crew are employed at a given rate, then as soon as its mentioned they lose out if overtime is taken away from them the unions kick up a huge fuss and claim its loss of earnings because overtime is guaranteed. So wages have to take a huge rise to balance that out. But as a passenger I would query how that makes sense, when overtime should never be guaranteed as a salary. The wage was set when the job was advertised, which was agreed to upon signing the contract.
High wages then pushes up fares.

 

[Welshman]

Nope not the reason given. And it was a national express coach as replacement

I wouldn't put too much emphasis on its being a National Express coach.
Llew Jones of Llanrwst, who nearly always seem to be used for rail replacement work due to their being so handy, have, I think, two coaches painted in NE livery for their share in the network.
Now that has also been severely cut-back, they only use one per day, so the one you saw was probably the other one, which just happened to be ready and doing nothing.

 

[wobman]

Yes. 'Agreed establishments at most depots are generally quite tight'
Surely its the unions that agree to it? If its too tight then why don't think reject the numbers and encourage more to be employed at each depot?

This setup clearly doesn't work as when overtime isnt taken, as does happen every year and at most TOCs, it descends into chaos and the passenger suffers.
Train crew are employed at a given rate, then as soon as its mentioned they lose out if overtime is taken away from them the unions kick up a huge fuss and claim its loss of earnings because overtime is guaranteed. So wages have to take a huge rise to balance that out. But as a passenger I would query how that makes sense, when overtime should never be guaranteed as a salary. The wage was set when the job was advertised, which was agreed to upon signing the contract.
High wages then pushes up fares.

You have a very bizarre perception of how the railways are ran, the toc sets depot establishment by a manpower v workload calculation.
Overtime is called Rdw and unions can't demand it, overtime is used to cover training or sickness. Some tocs use overtime to cover Sundays as it's cheaper for them, not the union as some people perceive is the case, this method is called committed overtime.

Unions actually don't want overtime as you seen to think, they want more staff instead. It's far cheaper for tocs to run with less staff, the tocs demand rdw with the unions which is the opposite of what you seem to think.

 

[Anonymous10]

"A train company not employing enough staff is because it's run for the benefit of the train crew."

*facepalms*

Many train crew actually look forward to their days off just like workers in other industries. Many train crew have families or other commitments, yes, even volunteering for charities in their free time, which prevent them working those days off even if they wanted to.
So, with some exceptions (there's always the "money men" in any job) most would be quite happy with more staff employed if needed.

However, staffing is worked out on something like 2.2 people employed per weekly diagrammed rostered turn, to cover for sickness, training and leave.

Where this falls apart is when people leave at short notice to join other companies (9 months' training but only 4 weeks' notice required at many train companies). Or when a badly thought out roster causes high fatigue and thus high incidents, with crew then off duty under investigation. Or when a pandemic arrives and halts all training for many months (and remember that in this case, Wales has greater restrictions still, too). Or when new trains arrive and all drivers need training handling on them, but there are hardly any instructors left. Etc.

All of which can and should be communicated by TfW management to the public in a concise and simple way, although one does wonder whether it would be simply dismissed as "train crew fault" anyway...

couldn't agree more add the safety aspect of staff working 7 days a week no thanks

 

[craigybagel]

Yes. 'Agreed establishments at most depots are generally quite tight'
Surely its the unions that agree to it? If its too tight then why don't think reject the numbers and encourage more to be employed at each depot?

This setup clearly doesn't work as when overtime isnt taken, as does happen every year and at most TOCs, it descends into chaos and the passenger suffers.
Train crew are employed at a given rate, then as soon as its mentioned they lose out if overtime is taken away from them the unions kick up a huge fuss and claim its loss of earnings because overtime is guaranteed. So wages have to take a huge rise to balance that out. But as a passenger I would query how that makes sense, when overtime should never be guaranteed as a salary. The wage was set when the job was advertised, which was agreed to upon signing the contract.
High wages then pushes up fares.

I hate to break it to you, as you seem to be having so much fun blaming the unions for everything - but depot establishment is nothing to do with them. How many people work at each depot and what they do is entirely down to the TOC.

The Unions are fully supportive of the massive recruitment scheme that TfW have been undertaking these past few years - the one that's also been held up rather badly by Covid. On average over the last two years it's taken twice as long per person to undertake training - and yet people have been leaving the company at the same rate they always do - hence the deficit. I can't speak for other depots, but at mine I've heard nothing but positive comments about the depot establishment being increased, and the hopeful impact this will have on the workload for the rest of us, trying to keep an understaffed business running.

Throw in the new fleets running late (through no fault of TfW) or proving highly unreliable in service - meaning an effective reduction in the number of units available, and also in recent times the fact that Storm Arwen damaged several units, at a time of year when normally there are usually several units off already with wheelflats, and you have the current perfect storm.

I know it's very tiring to hear about how things "will get better", and the current situation is pretty unacceptable for passengers, but that's how we are where we are.

Still, I look forward to more discussion about Schrodingers train crew - simultaneously too lazy to work any overtime but too greedy to let the company employ anyone else to do it.

 

[Cardiff123]

The Unions are fully supportive of the massive recruitment scheme that TfW have been undertaking these past few years - the one that's also been held up rather badly by Covid. On average over the last two years it's taken twice as long per person to undertake training - and yet people have been leaving the company at the same rate they always do - hence the deficit. I can't speak for other depots, but at mine I've heard nothing but positive comments about the depot establishment being increased, and the hopeful impact this will have on the workload for the rest of us, trying to keep an understaffed business running.

Throw in the new fleets running late (through no fault of TfW) or proving highly unreliable in service - meaning an effective reduction in the number of units available, and also in recent times the fact that Storm Arwen damaged several units, at a time of year when normally there are usually several units off already with wheelflats, and you have the current perfect storm.

So why aren't TfW going public and explaining all of this to passengers? I just don't understand the silence. To keep people on side, this all needs to be fully explained to passengers in a concise and easy to understand way through a public statement.

The current silence from TfW is doing them no favours, and instead people jump to their own conclusions about the current crisis.

 

[TravelDream]

Today's journey checker has this at the top:
''Disruption to Cardiff Valleys services Saturday 4th and Sunday 5th December.
Some services operating on the Local Cardiff Valley lines are subject to amendment / cancellation due to a shortage of train crew.''

In the jounrey checker itself, it still says 'resource availability'.

Transport for Wales JourneyCheck - Train times and live real time delay/cancellation/disruption information.

Transport for Wales JourneyCheck provides real time, up-to-date train times and train disruption information keeping you informed about any delays or cancellations on the network and helping you know what to do when your journey is affected. Train Cancellations, Delays, Alterations and...

www.journeycheck.com

 

[Dai Corner]

Question for the TfW employees: Is there a culture of working overtime/rest days when requested (even if you'd rather not and don't need the money) to keep the service going and maintain the reputation of the railway?

 

[wobman]

Question for the TfW employees: Is there a culture of working overtime/rest days when requested (even if you'd rather not and don't need the money) to keep the service going and maintain the reputation of the railway?

It depends on the individual like any industry, everyone has their own priorities. I actually like to see my family, I help out if I can with overtime but family time is more important to me and having some rest after a busy week.

With working shifts I can get up after the kids go to school as I had finished at 2am and be back on work at 2pm, so days off its family time.
Shift work has no patterns on the railways they are unlike most industries, so you find some like rdw and others do a bit then there's other that don't do any.

It's forgotten that the railway is a 24/7 industry and weekends / Bank Holidays are just working days to us. The only guaranteed bank holiday day off is Christmas day. Even then some volunteer to go in for frost protection on overtime!

It's not the staffs fault that tocs run depots below staff depot establishment figures, it's not the staffs fault many tocs don't have standby or spare drivers to cover sickness or leave. It's not the staffs fault people retire or leave.

 

[the sniper]

But as a passenger I would query how that makes sense.

It doesn't make sense, but it didn't stop you ignoring everything else that's been explained and running with that theory...

 

[Dai Corner]

Cancellations due to staff shortages are now being reported in local media, so perhaps a change of policy on TfW Rail's part?

For example the South Wales Argus

A NUMBER of train journeys have been cancelled or amended due to staff shortages according to Transport for Wales – including a number affecting Gwent.

The services affected include journeys passing through Barry Island, Penarth, Ystrad Mynach, Rhymney, Bargoed, Newport, Cwmbran, Pontypool and New Inn and Abergavenny.

The cancellations are affecting journeys all day today – Monday, December 6 – and affect the following:

followed by a long list of cancellations copied from Journeycheck.

 

[WelshBluebird]

One comment that was made to me multiple times by different people over the weekend was the question of how on earth TfW are going to cope on Fri 17th / Sat 18th. Given they weren't really coping this weekend, and in a few weeks you have the Stereophonics playing two home town shows in Cardiff at the Principality stadium - one on black friday and the other the day after on the same day Cardiff City are home to Derby in the football, on the last shopping weekend before Xmas. As I essentially remarked in one of my other posts - TfW's reputation is already shot now at least in the valleys. I wonder if it would have been a better idea to bring in a temporary branding between taking over the franchise to when the new rolling stock comes onboard!

 

[TravelDream]

Things are much better today with 'resource availability' cancellations down quite dramatically from the weekend, though there are still a couple of dozen.

One comment that was made to me multiple times by different people over the weekend was the question of how on earth TfW are going to cope on Fri 17th / Sat 18th.

A very reasonable question. The whole weekend is going to be tough, but the 18th especially so. The Saturday Stereophonics + Tom Jones concert is basically sold out. Added to it being the last Saturday shopping day before Christmas and Cardiff at home the whole day is going to be exceptionally busy.

 

[Cardiff123]

One comment that was made to me multiple times by different people over the weekend was the question of how on earth TfW are going to cope on Fri 17th / Sat 18th. Given they weren't really coping this weekend, and in a few weeks you have the Stereophonics playing two home town shows in Cardiff at the Principality stadium - one on black friday and the other the day after on the same day Cardiff City are home to Derby in the football, on the last shopping weekend before Xmas. As I essentially remarked in one of my other posts - TfW's reputation is already shot now at least in the valleys. I wonder if it would have been a better idea to bring in a temporary branding between taking over the franchise to when the new rolling stock comes onboard!

TfW should just book in a load of fast & stopping replacement buses for the Valleys now rather than announcing a long list of cancellations on the day and leaving people stranded. At least then people can plan. Because if there's a weekend that train crew are not going to want to work overtime, it will be that one.

 

[wobman]

TfW should just book in a load of fast & stopping replacement buses for the Valleys now rather than announcing a long list of cancellations on the day and leaving people stranded. At least then people can plan. Because if there's a weekend that train crew are not going to want to work overtime, it will be that one.

Either that, or cancel a load of trains mid-week and then get staff to work their rostered shifts on the Friday & Saturday instead of relying on overtime.

Forcing staff to work on there rest days isn't viable, the bus option is better but needs lots of logistical planning.
Tfw ran buses alongside 2 car units along the n Wales coast over the summer, the passengers were not happy at all.

 

[Llanigraham]

TfW should just book in a load of fast & stopping replacement buses for the Valleys now rather than announcing a long list of cancellations on the day and leaving people stranded. At least then people can plan. Because if there's a weekend that train crew are not going to want to work overtime, it will be that one.

And where do you think they are going to find all those buses and their crews?