GTR cancellations including not operating from Victoria until 10th Jan

[Bishopstone]

Arun Valley and Crystal Palace services returning to Victoria from next Monday, so not a total roll-over of the current timetable.

 

[Capvermell]

Arun Valley and Crystal Palace services returning to Victoria from next Monday, so not a total roll-over of the current timetable.

But not of course services from Dorking to Horsham even though Arun Valley services all go through Horsham where services to London via Leatherhead, Epsom and Sutton start and even though once upon a time fast services from Bognor used to travel up the Dorking to Horsham line................

Leaving the section of line from Dorking to Horsham with no train service out of London at all after the 1725 on a weekday is completely and utterly unreasonable.

Other lines are merely experiencing less service frequency and diversion to London Bridge as the London terminus but not not no weekday evening service whatsoever after the 1725 service from London Bridge. So with that being so why aren't services to Horsham via Dorking a priority for the earliest possible restoration to the normal service pattern and why does Southern and/or the DfT not also have to pay our consequential losses in having to travel by taxi instead for as long as the normal weekday service pattern with evening train services is not put back in place.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Arun Valley and Crystal Palace services returning to Victoria from next Monday, so not a total roll-over of the current timetable.

Arun Valley to run to Vic 0700 to 2000 only though according to Southern webpage. Seems odd to switch it mid evening. Anyhow its a start and given the massacre over at SWR next week at least we still have a reasonable service level even if it involves a change.

 

[Watershed]

In the current climate where the Dft call all the shots this level of contractual obligation seems to have gone by the board. The point of principal stands I think, it's now becoming commonplace for operators to withdraw a service completely or make first/last train times significantly later/earlier with little or no warning. This does little to promote public confidence in the railway.

Indeed. The DfT simply lacks any sort of strategic view of these things. Penny wise and pound foolish...

It also means people can have little confidence buying seasons if any compensation arrangements are only in place against the temporary timetable. I wonder if at some point we may see this tested in the courts? As people can buy a product based on the advertised service which is then withdrawn. Especially applicable to annual seasons as any refund won't be on a pro rata basis.

The odds of making it to the Courts are very low, because in the unlikely event that someone was sufficiently aggrieved to start legal proceedings, the matter would almost certainly be settled through a "goodwill gesture" of some sort.

As you say, they are slashing the timetable on a moment's notice, with spurious justifications and effectively no recourse being offered. It's rather unlikely that that position would hold up in Court.

This appalling behaviour means that anyone who still commutes by rail will only be doing so because they have no reasonable alternative (e.g. for some reason having to live in Brighton but work in London) - a captive market in other words.

The revenue from this market is now so small that frankly the DfT and Treasury don't give a monkey's about it. They are purely interested in what minimises liability, even if it is at the expense of having a railway worth running.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Indeed. The DfT simply lacks any sort of strategic view of these things. Penny wise and pound foolish...


The odds of making it to the Courts are very low, because in the unlikely event that someone was sufficiently aggrieved to start legal proceedings, the matter would almost certainly be settled through a "goodwill gesture" of some sort.

As you say, they are slashing the timetable on a moment's notice, with spurious justifications and effectively no recourse being offered. It's rather unlikely that that position would hold up in Court.

This appalling behaviour means that anyone who still commutes by rail will only be doing so because they have no reasonable alternative (e.g. for some reason having to live in Brighton but work in London) - a captive market in other words.

The revenue from this market is now so small that frankly the DfT and Treasury don't give a monkey's about it. They are purely interested in what minimises liability, even if it is at the expense of having a railway worth running.

Most of this isn't correct to be honest.

 

[Capvermell]

Most of this isn't correct to be honest.

Perhaps it might help if you could also state in what respect you believe the comments made by Watershed about the alleged decision making processes of the DfT in respect of these latest rail service cuts to be incorrect.

 

[Goldfish62]

Most of this isn't correct to be honest.

I'm sure it would be of interest to most of us if you could be more specific.

 

[class373]

Will the Victoria to east Croydon use class 387 Gatwick Express stock

Yes but only on the fast shuttles, this includes Class 377 too.

 

[class373]

Be longer than that. Seven weeks is what I've heard

Where did you hear this?

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Where did you hear this?

Current situation will continue for roughly 5 weeks.

 

[infobleep]

Arun Valley to run to Vic 0700 to 2000 only though according to Southern webpage. Seems odd to switch it mid evening. Anyhow its a start and given the massacre over at SWR next week at least we still have a reasonable service level even if it involves a change.

It's not a measure on all lines. Portsmouth Dircer even sees an improvement with more trains stopping at Claphsm Junction. Scan Cobham has 2 trains an hour still.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 12 Jan 2022 ==

But not of course services from Dorking to Horsham even though Arun Valley services all go through Horsham where services to London via Leatherhead, Epsom and Sutton start and even though once upon a time fast services from Bognor used to travel up the Dorking to Horsham line................

Leaving the section of line from Dorking to Horsham with no train service out of London at all after the 1725 on a weekday is completely and utterly unreasonable.

Other lines are merely experiencing less service frequency and diversion to London Bridge as the London terminus but not not no weekday evening service whatsoever after the 1725 service from London Bridge. So with that being so why aren't services to Horsham via Dorking a priority for the earliest possible restoration to the normal service pattern and why does Southern and/or the DfT not also have to pay our consequential losses in having to travel by taxi instead for as long as the normal weekday service pattern with evening train services is not put back in place.

Out of interest, how often were you travelling in the evening, when you could?

 

[Capvermell]

Current situation will continue for roughly 5 weeks.

Several times a week during recent months. Do you think that I would make all this fuss if I wasn't substantially adversely impacted by the removal of all evening weekday train services south of Dorking after the current 1725 service out of London Bridge.

 

[Bald Rick]

In the current climate where the Dft call all the shots this level of contractual obligation seems to have gone by the board.

Every change of service will be agreed by the DfT. Southern are not breaching any contract.

 

[Capvermell]

Every change of service will be agreed by the DfT. Southern are not breaching any contract.

Well then its a great shame the DfT is so totally and utterly untransparent about its reasons for any of this decision making.

Although I think the so called decision making will actually be the electronic equivalent of big rubber stamp marked Approved that DfT personnel will simply be using in response to every single application they currently get from the GoVia group in respect of requested service variations.

If the DfT isn't transparent about its approval process for these service variations (which seems to be much the same as the Ofcom process of simply agreeing to every single application by a local radio station to further reduce the local content of their services on the ground of profitability and cost) then obviously the travelling public isn't going to have any confidence in what they are doing.........

 

[30907]

Southern Diverted services from Horsham via Dorking or from Dorking Only to London Bridge don't go through East Croydon and nor dis the trains on this line when they terminated at London Victoria. Instead they travel via Leathehead, Ashtead and Epsom, Sutton, Ewell East, Carshalton, Hackbridge, Mitcham Junction and Mitcham Eastfields etc (and the last service back of the night only at Balham) and then run non stop to London Bridge just as they previously ran non stop to London Victoria.

So passengers on lines from Horsham to London via Dorking and Epsom were never going through Purley, East Croydon etc previously and nor are they travelling through those stations now. So they were never most likely to change at Wimbledon since Southern trains through Sutton have never ever called there and nor do they now during the near total blockade on services in to London Victoria. Only South Western trains from Dorking to London Waterloo call at Wimbledon but they don't call at East Croydon either.

Thank you.
Even after 35 years living North of Watford I am reasonably well aware of SN service patterns, but they aren't directly relevant:

Goldfish62 to whom you replied was asking about passengers travelling to/via East Croydon from Clapham Jn. As your initial reply was also not directly relevant, I attempted to supplement it.

I perhaps didn't make the point clearly enough, so let me try again:
passengers travelling via Clapham Jn this week might last week have travelled (eg from SWR Main Line stations) via Wimbledon and Tramlink, alternatively (eg from Windsor Line stations) via Waterloo and London Bridge. Starting at CLJ they might have taken either option, or even the RRB to Balham.

 

[RJ]

I used the shuttle from Clapham Junction to East Croydon in the morning peak yesterday. It was a very busy 8 car train. A large number of passengers boarded at Clapham, which begs the question as to how they managed last week.

I did two things when the service was down.

1. Simply not make certain trips until the service was restored. A few things I wanted to do around Victoria got postponed and if I was still working in that area I’d have worked from home.

2. Recalculate journeys. Like on Friday I finished work in Battersea in the small hours and instead of picking up Southern close by in Clapham Junction, somebody gave me a lift to Blackfriars where I could use Thameslink. However that overnight service has been subject to a noticeable number of short notice cancellations recently which makes it extremely difficult to rely on.

Glad to have the Victoria route available again, but even more glad of the option to work from home, which mitigates the personal impact of unstable rail services. People really will vote with their feet if they can find alternative ways to go about their lives long term.

 

[Rob Gibson]

Several times a week during recent months. Do you think that I would make all this fuss if I wasn't substantially adversely impacted by the removal of all evening weekday train services south of Dorking after the current 1725 service out of London Bridge.

How many passengers were on the later trains you used, of those who also alighted at Ockley (if any) how many didn’t have a car or lift and have therefore switched to using Dorking?

 

[ashkeba]

How many passengers were on the later trains you used, of those who also alighted at Ockley (if any) how many didn’t have a car or lift and have therefore switched to using Dorking?

So we do not care about @Capvermell then?

 

[Craig1122]

Every change of service will be agreed by the DfT. Southern are not breaching any contract.

I'm not suggesting that any contract is being breached. Simply that any certainty for passengers that rail companies will attempt to provide a specified minimum level of service has gone. That has to impact on public perception and as suggested further up the thread will in turn lead to people making decisions about where they work and how they travel which take that unreliability into account. That's not good news for the railway and the prospect of passenger numbers recovering. The situation currently is more like buses where services can just vanish overnight.

 

[Rob Gibson]

So we do not care about @Capvermell then?

As I said earlier Ockley was lucky to survive Beeching and used to have a very limited service. I’m pretty sure passengers there are subsided by Brighton main line passengers, question is how much should this tiny number of people be subsidised by people in towns and cities who don’t enjoy living in beautiful countryside and are already subsidising utilities and services in rural areas.

 

[Surreytraveller]

And yet they seem to be almost wholly unaccountable for their actions other than that one came make a complain to Transport Focus who then seem to fail to obtain any form of redress or explanation whatsoever from the DfT or GoVia/Southern for the current quite unreasonable slashing of Southern train services in response to no more than 10% of drivers being off sick due to the Omicron variant.

What would you suggest they do with such an unavailability of staff? What would you do?

 

[ComUtoR]

So we do not care about @Capvermell then?

In all honesty; probably not.

Its a huge numbers game. A small backwater village with a minimal passenger count is going to be a lesser priority than a huge station with thousands of passengers. That's just the nature of the beast.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm not suggesting that any contract is being breached. Simply that any certainty for passengers that rail companies will attempt to provide a specified minimum level of service has gone. That has to impact on public perception and as suggested further up the thread will in turn lead to people making decisions about where they work and how they travel which take that unreliability into account. That's not good news for the railway and the prospect of passenger numbers recovering. The situation currently is more like buses where services can just vanish overnight.

Ok - but what would do if, say, a fifth or your workforce was unable to come to work?

 

[Surreytraveller]

Where did you hear this?

Can't tell you

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jan 2022 ==

Arun Valley to run to Vic 0700 to 2000 only though according to Southern webpage. Seems odd to switch it mid evening. Anyhow its a start and given the massacre over at SWR next week at least we still have a reasonable service level even if it involves a change.

After mid evening, stock and crew workings affect it. Trains and crews from the Arun Valley don't go back down the Arun Valley

 

[yorkie]

Where did you hear this?

We have industry insiders on this forum; looking at this page of the discussion I see several members posting who I know for a fact work within the industry in positions which mean they will be party to additional information which will not be in the public domain.

 

[Craig1122]

Ok - but what would do if, say, a fifth or your workforce was unable to come to work?

Well the traditional approach is to thin out the service but maintain first and last trains, rather than abandon parts of the network. Not a hypothetical answer as it's what I've spent most of the last 2 years at work doing thanks to covid!

I see SWR is next up with a last minute timetable change that makes some previous journeys impossible it very much longer from next week. This despite case numbers now heading downwards.

 

[Capvermell]

What would you suggest they do with such an unavailability of staff? What would you do?

I would have re-implemented the lockdown timetable that ran for 7 months in 2020 ASAP as that timetable is properly structured to provide a substantially reduced train service on weekdays without leaving stations that need evening rail services on a weekday without any services as the 7 day implementation of a Saturday rail timetable quite clearly does.

 

[Capvermell]

Can't tell you

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Jan 2022 ==


After mid evening, stock and crew workings affect it. Trains and crews from the Arun Valley don't go back down the Arun Valley

Then how do mid and late evening services normally get provided on the Arun Valley line in the week when not trying to use a Saturday timetable not designed for weekday passenger needs in the week?

And what was wrong with reintroducing the main lockdown period timetable of 2020 for the time being that was clearly far better adapted to providing a reduced frequency of train service in the week than this timetable.

Unfortunately the whole thing of a shortage of drivers and the week long closure of London Victoria for signalling work seem to have been allowed to be conflated together with a seemingly misguided decision to continue running a Saturday based timetable to a large part of the Southern network indefinitely.

 

[Capvermell]

We have industry insiders on this forum; looking at this page of the discussion I see several members posting who I know for a fact work within the industry in positions which mean they will be party to additional information which will not be in the public domain.

Then let us hope those insiders take action sooner rather than later to bring to an end the nonsense of a Saturday evening service with no trains out of London proceeding south of Dorking after the 1725 service on weekdays.

Ditto let us hope they take action ASAP to route all trains normally going in to London Victoria back in to that station.

However it seems people are saying that Network Rail are now doing more signal work on the lines in to Victoria near Clapham Junction due to the lack of train services in to Victoria and I think it has probably been this engineering tail that has been wagging the service provision dog ever since January 4th since otherwise continuing to operate the majority of trains in to London Bridge does not make any logical sense.

 

[ashkeba]

As I said earlier Ockley was lucky to survive Beeching and used to have a very limited service. I’m pretty sure passengers there are subsided by Brighton main line passengers, question is how much should this tiny number of people be subsidised by people in towns and cities who don’t enjoy living in beautiful countryside and are already subsidising utilities and services in rural areas.

But the subsidy is available and it is a bit beneficial to towns and cities if it avoids some people from Ockley taking yet more cars into the towns.

Your continue-Beeching approach would likely condemn the railways to a future of managed decline with no growth routes opening up.

In all honesty; probably not.

Its a huge numbers game. A small backwater village with a minimal passenger count is going to be a lesser priority than a huge station with thousands of passengers. That's just the nature of the beast.

I do not think anyone argues it should not be a lesser priority but there must be a space between lesser priority and a last train at 1725 instead of 2325. That is about a third of the service day cancelled without even a replacement bus. It even makes it impossible to do a 9-5.30 city job and get home after.