Avanti West Coast: Standard Premium

[robert thomas]

A frequent occurrence in heavily unionised workplaces where any attempt to manage or monitor performance gets industrial action threatened.

I have travelledfirst class out of Manchester on a Sunday morning twice in the last few months. On each occasion the only first class seating available was in the front coach which was very crowded and uncomfortable. The standard premium coaches on the other hand were empty, but first class pasengers were denied food or drink if they sat in them

 

[island]

Has Avanti not heard of "mystery shoppers" ?

I refer you to my previous comments in post 1469.

 

[voyagerdude220]

I have travelledfirst class out of Manchester on a Sunday morning twice in the last few months. On each occasion the only first class seating available was in the front coach which was very crowded and uncomfortable. The standard premium coaches on the other hand were empty, but first class pasengers were debied food or drink if they sat in them

I certainly wouldn't be happy paying a premium for the "benefit" or "privilege" of sitting in a far more crowded carriage, just for the sake of receiving a "complimentary" breakfast. (which I could have easily paid an extra say £50-£100 for compared with the cost of a Standard Premium ticket.)

 

[Falcon1200]

0810 Euston-Glasgow C today; First Class was quiet, however walking through Standard Premium arriving at Glasgow there was absolutely no-one in either coach !
(Which is not to say of course that that was the case earlier in the journey, or perhaps others had walked forward like me).

 

[STINT47]

Having read this thread and compared people's experiences to the marketing blurb I have decided not to pay for first class on my forthcoming Crewe to Glasgow journey.

I will take a look at loading on the day. If standard isn't to busy it will do if it is then I may upgrade. Either way I'll stock up with a mini picnic before departure.

To get me to pay for first I would expect airline standards of first/business food, drinks. I would also hope for attentive service but it sounds like the reality does not match the reality.

 

[jfollows]

Despite my saying that I wasn't a fan of the idea, I'm even less of a fan of the over-priced First Class option, so I've booked myself and my partner Standard Premium for a return trip Wilmslow-London in a couple of weeks. First trip to London since Covid-19 and I bought a new Two Together Railcard also. I'm looking forward to it. 1A21 (10:11) up 22/2 and 1H71 (16:40) down 23/2.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I certainly wouldn't be happy paying a premium for the "benefit" or "privilege" of sitting in a far more crowded carriage, just for the sake of receiving a "complimentary" breakfast. (which I could have easily paid an extra say £50-£100 for compared with the cost of a Standard Premium ticket.)

Fundamentally I'd rather pay a more reasonable price (which I see as around 1.5-1.6 x the relevant Standard fare) to simply have the bigger seat with more legroom, and have the option to pay on top for food served at my seat if I want that. It might be worth doing complimentary tea, coffee and water as this costs next to nothing, but if I don't want the food I'd rather not pay for it.

Along similar lines I think the catering offer by easyJet and Ryanair is vastly superior than that offered by airlines who give slightly rubbish freebies on short-haul. I get to choose what I want, it's a decent size and decent quality, and if I don't want it I don't pay for it.

 

[43066]

A frequent occurrence in heavily unionised workplaces where any attempt to manage or monitor performance gets industrial action threatened.

Not sure that’s entirely fair. Can you cite an example of where an “attempt to manage or monitor performance” has lead to industrial action being threatened by a rail union?

It may well be that poor morale means staff aren’t performing at their best, of course, but that’s hardly the same thing. Terrible service is common U.K. wide, with most hospitality/service staff not being unionised.

 

[Trackman]

I have travelledfirst class out of Manchester on a Sunday morning twice in the last few months. On each occasion the only first class seating available was in the front coach which was very crowded and uncomfortable. The standard premium coaches on the other hand were empty, but first class pasengers were debied food or drink if they sat in them

I've seen it once where someone sat in SP because First was crowded asked nicely to have the food delivered there, which they did.

Fundamentally I'd rather pay a more reasonable price (which I see as around 1.5-1.6 x the relevant Standard fare) to simply have the bigger seat with more legroom, and have the option to pay on top for food served at my seat if I want that. It might be worth doing complimentary tea, coffee and water as this costs next to nothing, but if I don't want the food I'd rather not pay for it.

You've said this before and I totally agree. Plus plug it with a menu on the table.
Oddly enough have been sussing out fares for a trip in a couple of weeks- SP is about x1.6 and First is about x2.6 from the standard fare.
It's a no-brainer really, people will catch on eventually and First will be doomed.

To get me to pay for first I would expect airline standards of first/business food, drinks. I would also hope for attentive service but it sounds like the reality does not match the reality.

That was the idea I was told..... well we all know what happened.

 

[philthetube]

Not sure that’s entirely fair. Can you cite an example of where an “attempt to manage or monitor performance” has lead to industrial action being threatened by a rail union?

CCTV cameras in cabs.

Sort of a rail union, awake monitoring on trams, not sure what its proper name is.

 

[43066]

CCTV cameras in cabs.

I don’t believe action has ever been threatened in relation to this, can you link to it?

Not to go too far off topic, but in-cab driver facing CCTV has never even been formally proposed as far as I’m aware. Simply because “black boxes” monitor everything done, down to which horn tone has been used, and phone records can and are pulled if there’s an incident. Unions have no problem with any of this.

Sort of a rail union, awake monitoring on trams, not sure what its proper name is.

Trams aren’t trains .

And again - has action actually been threatened in relation to this?

 

[Tester]

I've seen it once where someone sat in SP because First was crowded asked nicely to have the food delivered there, which they did.

How very sensible!

I have done this and it has worked. However on one occasion, even though I was sitting in coach J in a seat marked with a First Class headrest, I was very firmly told that if I didn't sit in coach K I would receive nothing 'because I wasn't disabled'. I subsequently complained, and was promptly invited to drop my complaint in return for two free first class tickets anywhere on Avanti.

 

[voyagerdude220]

How very sensible!

I have done this and it has worked. However on one occasion, even though I was sitting in coach J in a seat marked with a First Class headrest, I was very firmly told that if I didn't sit in coach K I would receive nothing 'because I wasn't disabled'. I subsequently complained, and was promptly invited to drop my complaint in return for two free first class tickets anywhere on Avanti.

That could potentially be a very interesting legal challenge for Avanti to face if you politely decline their offer.

I hope you got the name of the member of staff who made that inexcusable comment.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

That could potentially be a very interesting legal challenge for Avanti to face if you politely decline their offer.

I hope you got the name of the member of staff who made that inexcusable comment.

I can think of plenty of Avanti’s hosts that it could have been, sadly…

 

[island]

That could potentially be a very interesting legal challenge for Avanti to face if you politely decline their offer.

It's about equally as likely to go anywhere as Avanti prosecuting the poster for not sitting in the correct seat.

 

[Scotrail314209]

It is incredible how much of a stark contrast Avanti is as a whole to LNER right now.

I’ve never had an issue with LNER regarding the offering or the hosts, nor do I think they’d ever attempt a silly stunt like this.

It looks like Standard Premium is staying and I probably won’t take advantage of it unless the service is super busy. As @Bletchleyite said, I’d find Standard Premium a tad more worth it if they threw in some hot and cold drinks. They cost nothing to bring in.

 

[Tester]

That could potentially be a very interesting legal challenge for Avanti to face if you politely decline their offer.

I hope you got the name of the member of staff who made that inexcusable comment.

Interestingly the Host was fully supported by the train manager - all perfectly amicable, but they weren't going to budge!

Avanti have sufficient information to follow up if they so choose.

Meanwhile I choose my battles - £500+ travel (already ticketed) is reasonable compensation for my inconvenience.

 

[43066]

Interestingly the Host was fully supported by the train manager - all perfectly amicable, but they weren't going to budge!

Avanti have sufficient information to follow up if they so choose.

To be fair, presumably this is because service is kept to a limited area for first class passengers? That doesn’t seem too unreasonable. For one thing staff presumably have to travel further to serve someone who has chosen to sit elsewhere (not in first), which will take them away from other customers.

Obviously they were conscious of a need to make an exception for those who have boarded elsewhere but are disabled and therefore unable to easily move. That’s a good thing.

Otherwise this scenario strikes me as being a little like going into a restaurant and demanding to be served dinner in the bar area - that may or may not be acceptable depending on their set up.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Interestingly the Host was fully supported by the train manager - all perfectly amicable, but they weren't going to budge!

Avanti have sufficient information to follow up if they so choose.

Meanwhile I choose my battles - £500+ travel (already ticketed) is reasonable compensation for my inconvenience.

Regardless of whether the Train Manager agreed with only serving food to people sat in a particular area of the train, they should still have criticised their colleague for making an inappropriate comment towards you.

 

[Tester]

To be fair, presumably this is because service is kept to a limited area for first class passengers? That doesn’t seem too unreasonable. For one thing staff presumably have to travel further to serve someone who has chosen to sit elsewhere (not in first), which will take them away from other customers.

Obviously they were conscious of a need to make an exception for those who have boarded elsewhere but are disabled and therefore unable to easily move.

Otherwise this scenario strikes me a little like going into a restaurant and demanding to be served dinner in the bar area - that may not be acceptable depending on their set up.

Hardly!

I was sitting in one of the six seats at the coach K end of coach J - clearly marked with First Class headrests, as opposed to the Standard Premium headrests in the remainder of coach J. This is indeed the only part of first class which is wheelchair accessible; on this occasion no such passengers were in the area.

 

[43066]

Hardly!

I was sitting in one of the six seats at the coach K end of coach J - clearly marked with First Class headrests, as opposed to the Standard Premium headrests in the remainder of coach J. This is indeed the only part of first class which is wheelchair accessible; on this occasion no such passengers were in the area.

Did you have a seat reservation or an open ticket?

If there were free seats in the service area, I’m not sure I see how it’s reasonable to demand to sit elsewhere? Presumably they weren’t expecting you to sit with strangers, for example?

As I say, the restaurant analogy is relevant here. In my experience you can ask for certain seats, but have no reasonable cause for complaint if you’re denied them, let alone any expectation of £500 worth of compensation. If you’ve reserved specific seats in advance you also aren’t able to change them at your whim, especially if it’s busy.

I do think sometimes people expect higher standards from the railway than they would elsewhere. “First class” on a train from A to B, often bought for £20 advance, isn’t quite the same thing as a £10K “First class” ticket on an Emirates flight from Dubai to NY!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I do think sometimes people expect higher standards from the railway than they would elsewhere. “First class” on a train from A to B, often bought for £20 advance, isn’t quite the same thing as a £10K “First class” ticket on an Emirates flight from Dubai to NY!

I would not expect the same level of quality of the physical product, but I would absolutely expect a "deferential" style of service taking into account that it is a premium product. Or bin the service and charge us less.

 

[Tester]

Did you have a seat reservation or an open ticket?

If there were free seats in the service area, I’m not sure I see how it’s reasonable to demand to sit elsewhere? Presumably they weren’t expecting you to sit with strangers, for example?

As I say, the restaurant analogy is relevant here. In my experience you can ask for certain seats, but have no real cause for complaint if you’re denied, let alone any expectation of £500 worth of compensation. If you’ve reserved specific seats in advance you also aren’t able to change them at your whim, especially if it’s busy.

I do think sometimes people expect higher standards from the railway they would elsewhere. “First class” on a train from A to B, often bought for £20 advance, isn’t quite the same thing as a £10K “First class” ticket on an Emirates flight from Dubai to NY!

I had a fully flexible first class ticket, and no reservation.

I didn't demand to sit anywhere - I simply sat in a clearly marked first class seat.

Your defence of what happened is impressive, but Avanti themselves clearly took a different view!

 

[43066]

I would not expect the same level of quality of the physical product, but I would absolutely expect a "deferential" style of service taking into account that it is a premium product. Or bin the service and charge us less.

You’d have an expectation of good service. I’m not quite sure that’s the same thing as deferential service, which perhaps implies towards US style obsequiousness?! That doesn’t translate to good service in my book - in fact quite the opposite!

I had a fully flexible first class ticket, and no reservation.

I didn't demand to sit anywhere - I simply sat in a clearly marked first class seat.

Your defence of what happened is impressive, but Avanti themselves clearly took a different view!

Understood.

I’m always up for a rigorous defence but, in light of the above, I’ll concede my position here .

In that case, I can see where you are coming from. To be clear I’m certainly not here to defend Avanti and have no “skin in the game”. I agree if you sit in first class seats with an open ticket, you have a reasonable expectation of that level of service.

Good on them for chucking out some decent compensation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You’d have an expectation of good service. I’m not quite sure that’s the same thing as deferential service, which perhaps implies towards US style obsequiousness?!

No, I wouldn't expect US style fake-obsequiousness (I had to look that up, can't say I've used that word before) but genuine obsequiousness, as you'd get on a quality airline in a premium class. That is, the passenger is first, not the desire to have a chat in the vestibule about why it's annoying that they lost their Coach K messroom, nor the idea that going through the corridor connection is a faff.

You can't expect the "hard product" to equal transatlantic First Class, but a passenger-first attitude costs nowt other than employing the right people (and it strikes me that Avanti seem to have a significant number of the wrong people).

 

[43066]

No, I wouldn't expect US style fake-obsequiousness (I had to look that up, can't say I've used that word before) but genuine obsequiousness, as you'd get on a quality airline in a premium class. That is, the passenger is first, not the desire to have a chat in the vestibule about why it's annoying that they lost their Coach K messroom, nor the idea that going through the corridor connection is a faff.

Obsequiousness is the cringeworthy “have a nice day sir”, #fake smile# type of service which is endemic in the US. Good service, at least as I’ve experienced it, is something that’s difficult to describe, but you always know it when you see it. It’s about being likeable, being attentive without being overbearing, judging what the customer wants when you want it. Etc.

It’s rare in the U.K. unless you’re spending a lot of money on your meal, hotel room etc. and isn’t guaranteed even when you are! We are generally dreadful at it, as a nation! Equally it can occasionally be found in the cheapest places where you least expect it.

You can't expect the "hard product" to equal transatlantic First Class, but a passenger-first attitude costs nowt other than employing the right people (and it strikes me that Avanti seem to have a significant number of the wrong people).

Agreed re. the passenger first attitude. All I will say is most staff on the railway strive to do a good job. Some of them even enjoy customer service (not usually drivers, admittedly).

Sometimes it goes wrong. I remember recently one of our TMs barking: “THERE’S NO CATERING” (host was absent) at a passenger in first who approached the galley and asked for a coffee, after I’d just walked out with a cuppa. Even I cringed at that.

 

[Dryce]

Travelled Avanti first last week and have to say I was disappointed. I don't see the value anymore.

I have been using SP over the last few months.

Until recently ticket checks / upgrade charges were haphazard or even non-existent. (I normally use advanced SP singles to get a reservation so no opportunistic saving for me - but I suspect that some will have worked out that opportunity and played the odds over the last few months).

Coaches have varied from being empty to about 50% populated on the late aternoon and evening services I have used. My guess is that when it has been more densely populated the majority of SP travellers are on-train upgrades. (This is based on a limited sample of the tables I see or pass on the journey and the number of upgrade vouchers on the tables).

There have been several occasions where passengers with First tickets have sat in SP thinking it was first. Some have chosen not to move when the TM has pointed out that it is not first. On two occasions passengers nearby have been from from First and have chosen to sit in SP and on one occasion were served by the staff from First and on another went up and fetched food and beverages from First.

I have found the at seat power to be a bit hit and miss. On several trips it hasn't worked and staff have reset the system but it either doesn't work or trips again within minutes and goes off.

When I have used First on and off over the last 15 months the staff have varied from really good to indifferent. The staff do make a difference when they are good. The food offerings are unbelievably poor IMO. And despite the meagre set of peculiar options its too common for options to be unavailable. I'm not sure what the mindset of Avanti is on this but it seems to be that they have invented the idea of the food offerings as something local and special and relevant - and yet it's all pretty pathetic and shambolic in reality.

 

[bramling]

Not sure that’s entirely fair. Can you cite an example of where an “attempt to manage or monitor performance” has lead to industrial action being threatened by a rail union?

It may well be that poor morale means staff aren’t performing at their best, of course, but that’s hardly the same thing. Terrible service is common U.K. wide, with most hospitality/service staff not being unionised.

There do seem to have been issues with west coast staff for some years. I remember a journey down from Glasgow some years ago on a Saturday when the catering lady (London based, of course) tried everything to keep coach K to herself for the journey, and even doing a round with the trolley was clearly a major inconvenience. This is pretty typical on there at times. I’d put it more down to poor supervision and management though - indeed odd considering this has persisted right through the Virgin tenure.

But, as you say, by no means unique to railway or unionised workplaces. A couple of weeks ago I had a gas engineer round to change the electrode on my boiler - the guy was so lethargic it was unreal (though to be fair he knew what he was doing). Not to mention pretty much any job involving tradespeople in the London / south-east area where one really has to keep an eye on things nowadays.

No one seems to give a toss nowadays.

 

[142blue]

No one seems to give a toss nowadays.

I care.

No customer, no requirement thus no job. Maybe I'm just "old school", look after people, serve them politely, ensure they have got the best ticket for their journey and they understand if it has limitations. Platform advice, where the carriage is located, arrival times etc. It costs nothing to do a job well and leave a lasting impression as come the day your role is under threat you need your customers on your side

 

[Falcon1200]

No one seems to give a toss nowadays.

I can only say that in contrast, on my three journeys with Avanti in the last couple of weeks the staff, and the food offering (in First) have been excellent. The one issue was, as I reported in the Avanti WC First Class experience thread, when only one member of catering staff was on board for the whole train between Glasgow and Carlisle, not the fault of the individual staff members of course, and that one person did her utmost to serve everyone, Standard and First Class alike.