Avanti West Coast: Standard Premium

[AlterEgo]

Not sure that’s entirely fair. Can you cite an example of where an “attempt to manage or monitor performance” has lead to industrial action being threatened by a rail union?

Yes, I was balloted for strike action and action short of a strike when I was a TSSA member after a union official was (rightly) managed out of the organisation. This was on Virgin West Coast. (I abstained)

Here is the news story from the time. https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/virgin-trains-staff-threaten-olympics-187885

 

[matthewluck]

Avanti are being mystery shopped quite frequently. There is also the Service Quality Regime mystery shops.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I think, at the end of the day, we cannot generalise. There are some absolutely vile excuses for customer service hosts on Avanti West Coast (the same can be said for some of their train managers, not to mention the Euston gateline scrum), and god knows I've made a series of complaints regarding them. But then, there are some absolutely fabulous assets to the company - take the first class hosts that got to know me on my weekly train to Manchester and would serve me two black puddings as they knew it was my favourite; the train manager who warmly invited me to stay on the train I'd taken from Liverpool to London so that I didn't have to change to the LNR at Crewe, and many other wonderful members of staff.

LNER, I've found to have some of the rudest hosts on the network, and again also to have some who give absolutely sterling service.

I don't think the customer service given by staff cannot be grouped by company. It's completely down to the individual.

Having said that, the communication surrounding Standard Premium and First Class on Avanti has not been clear. There is still minimal advertising of SP, and the continued "First Class" signage in SP causes confusion. The social media team continue to give mixed messages about Seatfrog availability, which is now almost zero. I hope with the refurbishment of the Pendolinos comes clearer signage to differentiate SP from First, otherwise frankly what right do staff have to get attitude-y when customers sit in the wrong area?

 

[43066]

Yes, I was balloted for strike action and action short of a strike when I was a TSSA member after a union official was (rightly) managed out of the organisation. This was on Virgin West Coast. (I abstained)

Here is the news story from the time. https://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/virgin-trains-staff-threaten-olympics-187885

Isn’t that an example of the union objecting to an (alleged) abuse of the disciplinary process, rather than to the existence of the process itself, though?

It’s certainly true that some jobs are easier to slack in than others. A host doing the minimum possible is a good example - much easier to get away with than a driver who goes around spadding, for example - but the existence of the union of itself certainly doesn’t make TOCs afraid to take disciplinary action when needed. The union’s role is merely to ensure the procedure is correctly followed.

I don't think the customer service given by staff cannot be grouped by company. It's completely down to the individual.

Agreed.

 

[AlterEgo]

Isn’t that an example of the union objecting to an (alleged) abuse of the disciplinary process, rather than to the existence of the process itself, though?

No, it wasn't. I was there.

It is very hard to get rid of lazy, incompetent, tardy people who don't pull their weight on the railway. That was all that was about.

 

[GS250]

Being 6'4 I've always found the Pendolino 'standard' class appalling for longer distance travel. The seats have reasonable give in them but legroom is at a premium to put it mildly.

At least with 'standard premium' there is far more comfort on offer. I've found the 'first class' service on Avanti to be pretty poor value, especially compared to LNER who seem to take their onboard service more seriously. Not the fault of the staff at Avanti, as the same staff were supplying a better service under the Virgin banner.

 

[Horizon22]

Not sure that’s entirely fair. Can you cite an example of where an “attempt to manage or monitor performance” has lead to industrial action being threatened by a rail union?

It may well be that poor morale means staff aren’t performing at their best, of course, but that’s hardly the same thing. Terrible service is common U.K. wide, with most hospitality/service staff not being unionised.

I've also seen this happen before. People have been fired due to a sequence of disciplinary issues and the RMT have ballotted for action because it was seen as "unjust" and completely twisted the facts about what they told their members. "Alleged" plays a massive part and can often not be substantiated.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Being 6'4 I've always found the Pendolino 'standard' class appalling for longer distance travel. The seats have reasonable give in them but legroom is at a premium to put it mildly.

The seats are of a bit of a dated design. If you're tall and really skinny, you'll be able to put your legs forward into the "niche" and so gain about an extra 1.5". If you're tall and broad, you get less space.

The best design of seat I've seen in this regard is that in the Class 175 which puts the heavy support in the middle and creates extra legroom at the sides of the seat.

Personally I don't just like SP for legroom and width, though, I like a seat that is both window and aisle. Even if Standard was like the 80x with plenty of room I'd still upgrade at the right price (where the right price is about 1.5 x Standard). I wouldn't upgrade to a 2+2 layout as LNR and SWR have.

 

[Bluejays]

I would not expect the same level of quality of the physical product, but I would absolutely expect a "deferential" style of service taking into account that it is a premium product. Or bin the service and charge us less.

Deferential service. Are we in victorian times ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Deferential service. Are we in victorian times ?

No, but genuine premium service (e.g. as you might get at the Ritz) requires a "customer first" approach. Nothing (within reason) should be too much trouble.

If that's not what they're offering, they need to pack in advertising it.

 

[Blinkbonny]

Deferential service. Are we in victorian times ?

Had to chuckle at this. It reminded me of a time a couple of years back on Virgin as I sat quietly waiting in the hope of the drinks trolley to come round.

Young woman at the front of the trolley was asking passengers what they would like and I patienly wait my turn. She pulls the trolley straight past me without a word, and I politely ask can I have a drink please?

Elder woman at back of trolley snaps aggressively "You said you didn't want one!"

I enquire, reasonably, what would be the point of me wanting a drink but saying I didn't want one when offered?

Served drink with sorry grace!

"Oh and can I have some peanuts as well please?"

Deferential? Hardly!

 

[CHESHIRECAT]

Liverpool crew by any chance!!!

 

[tankmc]

I do think sometimes people expect higher standards from the railway than they would elsewhere. “First class” on a train from A to B, often bought for £20 advance, isn’t quite the same thing as a £10K “First class” ticket on an Emirates flight from Dubai to NY!

I don't think people expect an "Emirates" product but at least something worthwhile. I travelled with Grand Central first from Sunderland to London. The train was old and no food was offered - just a hot or soft drink. What made the journey was the crew. Smiley, friendly and came through multiple times offering drinks. The train was clean, the seat was comfortable and the power sockets worked. They didnt over promise or pretend to be something they are not.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Around a decade ago I used to routinely travel between Preston and Glasgow/Edinburgh on a semi regular basis in First Class and never struggled to buy Advance First singles for around £20-£30 each way with railcard discount and I could be rather spontaneous at times, booking less than 24 hours before travel. I usually caught the 08:15 (Pendolino) from Preston or occasionally 06:40 (Super Voyager which sometimes cost up to £40- understandable given the smaller number of First Class seats.)

Yes costs in general have increased since then, but even looking weeks, or a couple of months in advance on the 08:15 the cheapest First Class single is £80.50 (so around £60 with railcard discount). Yet Standard Class singles are often available for around £12/£8 with railcard discount. Big difference.

 

[Bishopstone]

Around a decade ago I used to routinely travel between Preston and Glasgow/Edinburgh on a semi regular basis in First Class and never struggled to buy Advance First singles for around £20-£30 each way with railcard discount and I could be rather spontaneous at times, booking less than 24 hours before travel. I usually caught the 08:15 (Pendolino) from Preston or occasionally 06:40 (Super Voyager which sometimes cost up to £40- understandable given the smaller number of First Class seats.)

Yes costs in general have increased since then, but even looking weeks, or a couple of months in advance on the 08:15 the cheapest First Class single is £80.50 (so around £60 with railcard discount). Yet Standard Class singles are often available for around £12/£8 with railcard discount. Big difference.

Everyone has a different perception of value, and I’d be quite satisfied with £60 for Preston-Scotland in a First Class seat, with a meal (of sorts), a couple of drinks and decent personal space. At that price I’d definitely go First rather than SP.

I fear that anyone expecting £40 fares AND chef-prepared food, an open bar and a ‘4’ to oneself is likely to remain disappointed. That sounds like a £150+ service proposition to me.

 

[voyagerdude220]

I agree. I was more highlighting how much the cost of travelling First Class has increased since Avanti took over from Virgin.

 

[GS250]

Everyone has a different perception of value, and I’d be quite satisfied with £60 for Preston-Scotland in a First Class seat, with a meal (of sorts), a couple of drinks and decent personal space. At that price I’d definitely go First rather than SP.

I fear that anyone expecting £40 fares AND chef-prepared food, an open bar and a ‘4’ to oneself is likely to remain disappointed. That sounds like a £150+ service proposition to me.

There's only one 'premium' service on the UK network and of course that's the GWR Pullman dining service. Still excellent service and food too. The IET configuration (for some) is a bit of a downer as it means you can't have the traditional 'couple' seating arrangement but of course this is being pedantic. I've managed to get a FC advance single and 3 course meal for less than £100 travelling to Truro in the past. Average price though, is as stated above. Around £150.

 

[D6130]

There's only one 'premium' service on the UK network and of course that's the GWR Pullman dining service.

Until the WAG Holyhead-Cardiff service fully restarts, that is.

 

[voyagerdude220]

Until the WAG Holyhead-Cardiff service fully restarts, that is.

Admittedly I haven't been on GWR's Pullman services before, but I've never yet been let down by the WAG services.

 

[GS250]

Until the WAG Holyhead-Cardiff service fully restarts, that is.

Interested in this. I recall the short live Wrexham and Shropshire service offering full dining on some of its services. Think I'll have to give it a try when it re starts! Glad there's still clearly a market for the traditional on board dining service. Not entirely sure why the East and West Coast have dropped theirs entirely. I'm sure someone with greater knowledge of the subject can enlighten why?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Everyone has a different perception of value, and I’d be quite satisfied with £60 for Preston-Scotland in a First Class seat, with a meal (of sorts), a couple of drinks and decent personal space. At that price I’d definitely go First rather than SP.

I fear that anyone expecting £40 fares AND chef-prepared food, an open bar and a ‘4’ to oneself is likely to remain disappointed. That sounds like a £150+ service proposition to me.

And that's fine if you market it right. Avanti are marketing First Class as a proper premium experience, when in fact it's Standard Premium with a fairly on-the-cheap catering offering, served by a very mixed bag of staff, but with the premium price.

(OK, 60 quid Preston-Scotland I'll give you, but Preston-Scotland and similar journeys are often sold at quite attractive prices to fill seats that people previously occupied from Euston-Preston at much higher fares - to get an idea of the marketing approach you really need to look at the Euston-North West fares, and they are anything but low)

 

[jfollows]

And that's fine if you market it right. Avanti are marketing First Class as a proper premium experience, when in fact it's Standard Premium with a fairly on-the-cheap catering offering, served by a very mixed bag of staff, but with the premium price.

Yes, I've come round to your way of thinking thanks to all the reports here - it appears that First Class is more expensive than it used to be, and pretty much the same, in other words a bit hit-and-miss primarily because of the staff but also because of the logistics (sorry, the XXX didn't get loaded at the depot, and we've run out of YYY), and there's the possibility of being crammed together in one coach also.

So Standard Premier for me on my next trip, although when it's me on my own I'll probably go all the way to LNWR and change at Crewe.

 

[Y Ddraig Coch]

Interested in this. I recall the short live Wrexham and Shropshire service offering full dining on some of its services. Think I'll have to give it a try when it re starts! Glad there's still clearly a market for the traditional on board dining service. Not entirely sure why the East and West Coast have dropped theirs entirely. I'm sure someone with greater knowledge of the subject can enlighten why?

I'm not sure if it will be up to the same standards when it comes back on the WAG, they have already removed the meal from the ticket price, the first class ticket will stay the same price as it was but you will now need to pay for the breakfast, lunch or dinner meal, Granted they aren't going to be charging much, I believe around £10.00 for breakfast and £17.00 for two course lunch/ dinner or £20.00 for 3 course. The new menus have not been released yet so I don't know if there will be cut backs in the quality as it was very good before it stopped. They were also recruiting travelling chefs for the services recently so new staff. So it is all yet to be seen if it can compare when it returns.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So Standard Premier for me on my next trip, although when it's me on my own I'll probably go all the way to LNWR and change at Crewe.

If only instead of refitting the 350/4s to have the same rubbish attempt at 1st that the other 350s have they'd brought all the units up to the high standard of the ex-TPE /4s, or even gone for a halfway house like 2+1 layout Grammer IC3000s. Then I'd do that in 1st every single time.

The best 1st LNR has is on the 319s!

 

[Bluejays]

No, but genuine premium service (e.g. as you might get at the Ritz) requires a "customer first" approach. Nothing (within reason) should be too much trouble.

If that's not what they're offering, they need to pack in advertising it.

Couldn't disagree more, all that approach would do is pander to the worst whims of a very small percentage of the 1st class market. The full selection of food and drink on board should be available on the trolley and the hosts should be polite and friendly. But this idea of deference just seems very strange to me.

As a guard, the idea of taking a different and more deferential approach to people based on what ticket they hold would never enter my head.
As a punter , the idea of being fawned over would make me feel decidedly uncomfortable.

I'd rather let people be themselves and try to manage out the bad ones (I fully accept that the bad ones aren't often got rid of ), than try to enforce some kind of baseline requirement of fawning and bootlicking

 

[Bletchleyite]

Couldn't disagree more, all that approach would do is pander to the worst whims of a very small percentage of the 1st class market. The full selection of food and drink on board should be available on the trolley and the hosts should be polite and friendly. But this idea of deference just seems very strange to me.

As a guard, the idea of taking a different and more deferential approach to people based on what ticket they hold would never enter my head.
As a punter , the idea of being fawned over would make me feel decidedly uncomfortable.

I'd rather let people be themselves and try to manage out the bad ones (I fully accept that the bad ones aren't often got rid of ), than try to enforce some kind of baseline requirement of fawning and bootlicking

I think we might have a different idea of the meaning of "deferential"... what I mean is that the stewards are always there for the passenger's wants. Want a cup of tea? Another beer? Sure. Not just when the trolley comes through. In essence they should be on their feet serving the passengers and not sat in the vestibule chatting. If that's happening because breaks aren't properly scheduled away from the train, they need to be so they can give passengers their full and undivided attention throughout the journey.

And things like collecting in the cups 20 minutes before arrival (yes, you, Caledonian Sleeper) should not be a thing. The teacups are collected in when the tea has been finished and the passenger doesn't want more. If they want more right up to door release, they get it. With a smile, not through gritted teeth.

That is a premium service. Service for the sole convenience of the passenger, not the staff. No need for crooning over people or apologising for breathing on them, but attentiveness to the passenger's needs and desires (within the constraints of the menu*) from the second they board (including welcoming them at the door and showing them to their seat; there's only one passenger door on each side in Coach K) to the second they alight.

If the staff don't like offering that sort of service, but prefer the "service with a mild scowl" as one might get in economy class on some BA and KLM flights or on the execrable Wizz Air where you get the definite feeling that they think they're doing you a favour by selling you an overpriced cup of lukewarm Nescafe, then they're the wrong staff for the job.

It doesn't mean bowing down and "I'm not worthy", nor the false American "have a nice day" nonsense. It just means being there the whole time and offering a flawless quality of service. Which if you prefer includes "no, I don't want anything, thanks, I'll tell you if I do" - but if that's your preference save your money and go SP!

* Which is rubbish and needs improving massively.

 

[Bluejays]

Had to chuckle at this. It reminded me of a time a couple of years back on Virgin as I sat quietly waiting in the hope of the drinks trolley to come round.

Young woman at the front of the trolley was asking passengers what they would like and I patienly wait my turn. She pulls the trolley straight past me without a word, and I politely ask can I have a drink please?

Elder woman at back of trolley snaps aggressively "You said you didn't want one!"

I enquire, reasonably, what would be the point of me wanting a drink but saying I didn't want one when offered?

Served drink with sorry grace!

"Oh and can I have some peanuts as well please?"

Deferential? Hardly!

That story instantly brings a few dragons I've encountered in customer host roles to mind. . Although the vast majority are good as gold.

I think we might have a different idea of the meaning of "deferential"... what I mean is that the stewards are always there for the passenger's wants. Want a cup of tea? Another beer? Sure. Not just when the trolley comes through. In essence they should be on their feet serving the passengers and not sat in the vestibule chatting. If that's happening because breaks aren't properly scheduled away from the train, they need to be so they can give passengers their full and undivided attention throughout the journey.

And things like collecting in the cups 20 minutes before arrival (yes, you, Caledonian Sleeper) should not be a thing. The teacups are collected in when the tea has been finished and the passenger doesn't want more. If they want more right up to door release, they get it. With a smile, not through gritted teeth.

That is a premium service. Service for the sole convenience of the passenger, not the staff. No need for crooning over people or apologising for breathing on them, but attentiveness to the passenger's needs and desires (within the constraints of the menu*) from the second they board (including welcoming them at the door and showing them to their seat; there's only one passenger door on each side in Coach K) to the second they alight.

If the staff don't like offering that sort of service, but prefer the "service with a mild scowl" as one might get in economy class on some BA and KLM flights or on the execrable Wizz Air where you get the definite feeling that they think they're doing you a favour by selling you an overpriced cup of lukewarm Nescafe, then they're the wrong staff for the job.

It doesn't mean bowing down and "I'm not worthy", nor the false American "have a nice day" nonsense. It just means being there the whole time and offering a flawless quality of service. Which if you prefer includes "no, I don't want anything, thanks, I'll tell you if I do" - but if that's your preference save your money and go SP!

* Which is rubbish and needs improving massively.

Fair points, I see more where you're coming from. Although to be perfectly honest it's not what I want when I'm in 1st. I think it's uncomfortable for the staff and for a lot of the passengers. I'd rather the more simple approach of making sure the trolley is taken out at least every 25/30 minutes, and that it's wheeled back as slowly as it's taken out, to allow for people to request top ups , extra sugats etc.

On busy trains there is almost as much prep time as serving time aswell. New coffees to be rebrewed , trolley restocking , running stuff up to the person In standard etc.

As for wizz, I've always found them alright. Much like ryanair staff, they tend to give pretty short shrift to anyone who's being an arse. I quite like that. To be fair, if you smile, say hello, and know what you want then its quite hard to have a bad interaction with them. Those who bumble around or grunt at them will probably end up with a stare that can pierce through metal

 

[Scotrail314209]

In a sense, I think Cabin Crew on budget airlines can be a bit less attentive as I believe they have quotas on what they need to sell. I know this is mostly true for Ryanair but I’m not sure about the others.

It’s definitely agreeable that some catering crews need to be enrolled in a course about good customer service. I think some of them enjoy the fact it’s relatively easy going with plenty of time to blather and bring out the trolley at their own will. Whereas on airlines there’s work being done constantly.

 

[Grumpy Git]

Lets be honest here, in general, customer service in the UK is dire. It's all about "how quick can we get this done" (and get sat back on our arses in the staff room).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Fair points, I see more where you're coming from. Although to be perfectly honest it's not what I want when I'm in 1st. I think it's uncomfortable for the staff and for a lot of the passengers. I'd rather the more simple approach of making sure the trolley is taken out at least every 25/30 minutes, and that it's wheeled back as slowly as it's taken out, to allow for people to request top ups , extra sugats etc.

To be honest with regard to tea and coffee I think they should serve it in decently-sized teapots and cafetieres (4-cup size or thereabouts) with milk jug so you can top yourself up as desired. Would also reduce the work.

Lets be honest here, in general, customer service in the UK is dire. It's all about "how quick can we get this done" (and get sat back on our arses in the staff room).

Yes, and that's (sort of) fine in Standard, but not the way First is marketed.