Manchester-Clitheroe services...why never beyond?

[Philip]

Are there any particular reasons why the Manchester to Clitheroe services have never been extended onto the Settle & Carlisle line to...Carlisle in normal timetables spanning at least the last 30 years?

I know there is the Dales Rail Sunday special, but it seems strange that late BR/NWT/FNW/Northern have only ever run Settle & Carlisle services from the Leeds direction - never from Blackburn, Bolton and Manchester. I'd imagine there would be reasonable tourist demand from Manchester like there is from Leeds and it'd be an alternative and cheaper way to reach Carlisle from Manchester compared with using the WCML. I don't think the single track section north of Clitheroe is a great excuse considering much of the Bolton to Blackburn line is also single track.

Do people think there is much chance of the Clitheroe service finally extending onto the S&C within the next few years?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think there's "reasonable demand" onto the S&C from anywhere, really

It would be nice, but it's a low priority for funds.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Are there any particular reasons why the Manchester to Clitheroe services have never been extended onto the Settle & Carlisle line to...Carlisle in normal timetables spanning at least the last 30 years?

Probably reflects who it was that campaigned (= Ribble Valley Rail?) for re-opening of Clitheroe (and other stations towards Blackburn) in 1994 after closure some thirty odd years previously and the organisations that helped fund this. These groups were, I believe, primarily wanting connectivity from Clitheroe into Manchester rather than to anywhere else.

 

[Bevan Price]

There is a fairly low population between Clitheroe and Hellifield; places like Chatburn, Gisburn are litlle more than large villages.

 

[Starmill]

North of Clitheroe there's next to no population to serve, even if you include the populations of Hellifield, Long Preston and Settle.

If a station at Chatburn existed, along with a suitable crossover, you could justify going there to serve it on the grounds of that being "free" i.e. the train has to go to Horrocksford Junction anyway to reverse and they have a very long turnaround time. The station might also serve some of the other nearby small villages including Gisburn, Downham and Grindleton a little bit better than Clitheroe does. However, there is not a station at Chatburn, and it is too small and too near Clitheroe for anyone to want to fund one.

 

[Philip]

Demand might seem low beyond Clitheroe, but then the same could be said of beyond Skipton/Gargrave, yet Northern run the service all the way to Carlisle from the Leeds line. I'm not suggesting all services from Carlisle to Leeds should re-route to Blackburn and Manchester instead, but would a balance not be a good idea? So half of the S&C services continue onto the Airedale line, the other half serve the Ribble Valley line and onto Manchester?

I think with some good promotional advertising you would get a fair number of passengers using a Manchester to Clitheroe-Carlisle service because of the tourist attraction that is the S&C line, maybe not too much smaller than the Manchester to Windermere market, at least during the Spring and Summer months.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Demand might seem low beyond Clitheroe, but then the same could be said of beyond Skipton/Gargrave, yet Northern run the service all the way to Carlisle from the Leeds line. I'm not suggesting all services from Carlisle to Leeds should re-route to Blackburn and Manchester instead, but would a balance not be a good idea? So half of the S&C services continue onto the Airedale line, the other half serve the Ribble Valley line and onto Manchester?

I think with some good promotional advertising you would get a fair number of passengers using a Manchester to Clitheroe-Carlisle service because of the tourist attraction that is the S&C line, maybe not too much smaller than the Manchester to Windermere market, at least during the Spring and Summer months.

The S & C isn't just a "tourist" attraction but serves as link between West Yorkshire (Leeds, Bradford) and West Scotland (mainly Glasgow). The market between Greater Manchester and Scotland travels via Preston and Shap.

 

[reb0118]

Realistically how long would it take to travel from Manchester to Glasgow via the S&C and G&SW?

Assuming stops at Bolton, Blackburn, Clitheroe, Hellifield, Settle, Appleby, Carlisle, Annan, Dumfries, Kilmarnock, & Barrhead.

 

[Starmill]

Demand might seem low beyond Clitheroe, but then the same could be said of beyond Skipton/Gargrave, yet Northern run the service all the way to Carlisle from the Leeds line. I'm not suggesting all services from Carlisle to Leeds should re-route to Blackburn and Manchester instead, but would a balance not be a good idea? So half of the S&C services continue onto the Airedale line, the other half serve the Ribble Valley line and onto Manchester?

I think with some good promotional advertising you would get a fair number of passengers using a Manchester to Clitheroe-Carlisle service because of the tourist attraction that is the S&C line, maybe not too much smaller than the Manchester to Windermere market, at least during the Spring and Summer months.

For political reasons the reduction of services from Appleby and Settle towards Skipton and Leeds isn't going to be acceptable, not even if the quid pro quo is through trains to Blackburn, Bolton, Manchester.

 

[reb0118]

[N]ot even if the quid pro quo is through trains to Blackburn, Bolton, Manchester.

Rather than swap services from Leeds to Manchester what extra resources would be required to extend some Clitheroe services to Hellifield to connect with the Carlisle & Morecambe trains?....

 

[Bertie the bus]

Rather than swap services from Leeds to Manchester what extra resources would be required to extend some Clitheroe services to Hellifield to connect with the Carlisle & Morecambe trains?....

A 7 figure sum in subsidy per year for a start, according to the people calling for its reopening. Really not worth the money for what would be a pointless reopening.

 

[Philip]

The S & C isn't just a "tourist" attraction but serves as link between West Yorkshire (Leeds, Bradford) and West Scotland (mainly Glasgow). The market between Greater Manchester and Scotland travels via Preston and Shap.

Surely the majority of West Yorkshire-Glasgow passengers would take the LNER to Edinburgh and then ScotRail to Glasgow?

There is another option for this which would be extending Clitheroe services to Lancaster and perhaps onto Barrow or Morecambe; it'd open up new direct connections between Blackburn, Clitheroe and Lancaster which could be well used.

 

[edwin_m]

Surely the majority of West Yorkshire-Glasgow passengers would take the LNER to Edinburgh and then ScotRail to Glasgow?

There is another option for this which would be extending Clitheroe services to Lancaster and perhaps onto Barrow or Morecambe; it'd open up new direct connections between Blackburn, Clitheroe and Lancaster which could be well used.

It's only providing an alternative (probably slower) route for journeys that are fairly easy to achieve via Preston already. Very unlikely enough passengers are making these journeys to justify a second route, especially one that puts more traffic on the WCML between Lancaster and Carnforth.

 

[Peterthegreat]

Surely the majority of West Yorkshire-Glasgow passengers would take the LNER to Edinburgh and then ScotRail to Glasgow?

There is another option for this which would be extending Clitheroe services to Lancaster and perhaps onto Barrow or Morecambe; it'd open up new direct connections between Blackburn, Clitheroe and Lancaster which could be well used.

Journey times between Leeds and Glasgow are similar +/- 15 minutes so it depends on the exact time of day and/or the price. I think you are vastly over estimating the amount of traffic from Blackburn to Lancaster. It can be done in less than n hour via Preston, via Hellifield would take nearer twp.

 

[chorleyjeff]

Are there any particular reasons why the Manchester to Clitheroe services have never been extended onto the Settle & Carlisle line to...Carlisle in normal timetables spanning at least the last 30 years?

I know there is the Dales Rail Sunday special, but it seems strange that late BR/NWT/FNW/Northern have only ever run Settle & Carlisle services from the Leeds direction - never from Blackburn, Bolton and Manchester. I'd imagine there would be reasonable tourist demand from Manchester like there is from Leeds and it'd be an alternative and cheaper way to reach Carlisle from Manchester compared with using the WCML. I don't think the single track section north of Clitheroe is a great excuse considering much of the Bolton to Blackburn line is also single track.

Do people think there is much chance of the Clitheroe service finally extending onto the S&C within the next few years?

When was is singled ?
Even in the late 1950s there were very few passengers between Blackburn and Hellifield even though the remnants of the former Midland/L&Y service from Manchester and Liverpool to Scotland were supposed to provide connections at Hellifield. I can think of better ways to spend money.

 

[Philip]

Journey times between Leeds and Glasgow are similar +/- 15 minutes so it depends on the exact time of day and/or the price. I think you are vastly over estimating the amount of traffic from Blackburn to Lancaster. It can be done in less than n hour via Preston, via Hellifield would take nearer twp.

Regarding Blackburn to Lancaster traffic; these are two large towns/small cities within about 20 miles of each other, in the same county and without a direct connection - I'd have thought there'd be plenty of passenger traffic between the two places?

 

[Peterthegreat]

Regarding Blackburn to Lancaster traffic; these are two large towns/small cities within about 20 miles of each other, in the same county and without a direct connection - I'd have thought there'd be plenty of passenger traffic between the two places?

Not if it takes two hours!

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Just to expand upon what I mentioned in post #2, there was little or no service at Clitheroe station for over 30 years between 1962 and 1994.

The premise of the OP's question is that there might be some desire to extend Manchester->Clitheroe services beyond Clitheroe.

Reckon that this is looking at things from the wrong point of view.

When the campaigners were wanting Clitheroe station re-opened in the 1990's, that was to be the journey origin point for connectivity in the direction of Blackburn and Manchester.

Good that the Ribble Valley line was still open in the opposite direction, but that wasn't where the majority of the good burghers of Clitheroe wanted to be going.

 

[Bletchleyite]

When the campaigners were wanting Clitheroe station re-opened in the 1990's, that was to be the journey origin point for connectivity in the direction of Blackburn and Manchester.

Good that the Ribble Valley line was still open in the opposite direction, but that wasn't where the majority of the good burghers of Clitheroe wanted to be going.

This makes a lot of sense. What people mostly want to do is (a) go to their nearest town, and (b) go to their nearest large city. Clitheroe is that town for places along the way, and Manchester is it for Clitheroe. Lancaster is in Lancashire too, but that doesn't mean it has the main travel patterns.

I don't doubt that the people of Clitheroe like a day hike in the Dales too, but DalesRail provides that if they do (and don't drive), you don't need an hourly service for that, it's a day out and pleasant time in the pub waiting for the return trip. It might be nice to run it on a Saturday as well as a Sunday (because connections onto it are rather poor on Sunday mornings that early on, so Saturdays would open it to connections from West Lancashire and other parts of Manchester too) and perhaps daily in school holidays, but apart from that there's not much need.

Though talking of Lancaster, if there was infinite money, I could see sense in a pattern of Manchester-Morecambe via Hellifield and Leeds-Carlisle as two-hourly clockface services as suggested above, with the services timed to connect well in both directions (i.e. meet at a rejigged Hellifield - it has long platforms). But it would be very difficult to justify the funding, and would disrupt some existing travel patterns. And I'd figure most demand for Clitheroe-Lancaster is people working at the uni, which is too far from the station for train to be the mode of choice.

 

[6Gman]

Regarding Blackburn to Lancaster traffic; these are two large towns/small cities within about 20 miles of each other, in the same county and without a direct connection - I'd have thought there'd be plenty of passenger traffic between the two places?

I have visited Blackburn. I have visited Lancaster.

They are very, very different places.

I cannot think too many people in Blackburn see Lancaster as a destination for work, shopping or leisure.

Even fewer in the other direction!

 

[30907]

Regarding Blackburn to Lancaster traffic; these are two large towns/small cities within about 20 miles of each other, in the same county and without a direct connection - I'd have thought there'd be plenty of passenger traffic between the two places?

They are about 30 miles apart by road (motorway) or rail (2tph changing at Preston).

I think with some good promotional advertising you would get a fair number of passengers using a Manchester to Clitheroe-Carlisle service because of the tourist attraction that is the S&C line, maybe not too much smaller than the Manchester to Windermere market, at least during the Spring and Summer months.

The S and C is hardly comparable with the Lake District as an attraction - realistically there would be some demand for "active" leisure from East Lancs and Preston/Bolton, but Manchester is a good 30min further away than Leeds and much nearer the Peak District.

The other possible market is commuting to Skipton and Keighley via Hellifield (plus Clitheroe area to Leeds) - that's pretty niche, and Clitheroe isn't exactly an unemployment hotspot (Blackburn is, and even Clitheroe has some deprivation), so the social policy argument that SELRAP are using for Colne-Skipton doesn't apply.

In practical terms, I think it might be worth following up Bletchleyite's
suggestion of a Saturday Dalesrail - once resource availability is more normal. There is probably enough demand on a Saturday morning for an extra northbound train on the S and C, though I am not sure whether you would use the unit best by running a single Carlisle and back, or by extending 3-4 Clitheroes to Ribblehead or Appleby. Either way it needs a unit and crew.

 

[muddythefish]

As a former resident (and trainspotter!) next to the Blackburn - Hellifield line I know it very well and would love to see services extended beyond Clitheroe, possibly as far as Settle where I believe there is a crossover where trains could reverse. Perhaps 2 or 3 trains each way a day for day trippers to Manchester and vice versa.

I'd also like to see regular Clitheroe - Preston trains too; direct connections to the WCML at Preston would make trips to London and Glasgow so much easier and convenient.

 

[edwin_m]

In practical terms, I think it might be worth following up Bletchleyite's
suggestion of a Saturday Dalesrail - once resource availability is more normal. There is probably enough demand on a Saturday morning for an extra northbound train on the S and C, though I am not sure whether you would use the unit best by running a single Carlisle and back, or by extending 3-4 Clitheroes to Ribblehead or Appleby. Either way it needs a unit and crew.

That sort of "extending a few journeys" idea really messes up the timetabling. Unless the times are constrained so one comes back to Clitheroe about the same time as one goes beyond, there is no train available to run the next working to Manchester. I suspect most residents of Clitheroe and south would value their hourly Manchester service far more than the possibility of a few services northwards.

 

[47444]

I don't think the single track section north of Clitheroe is a great excuse considering much of the Bolton to Blackburn line is also single track.

What single track section is there north of Clitheroe?

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Are there any particular reasons why the Manchester to Clitheroe services have never been extended onto the Settle & Carlisle line to...Carlisle in normal timetables spanning at least the last 30 years?

I know there is the Dales Rail Sunday special, but it seems strange that late BR/NWT/FNW/Northern have only ever run Settle & Carlisle services from the Leeds direction - never from Blackburn, Bolton and Manchester. I'd imagine there would be reasonable tourist demand from Manchester like there is from Leeds and it'd be an alternative and cheaper way to reach Carlisle from Manchester compared with using the WCML. I don't think the single track section north of Clitheroe is a great excuse considering much of the Bolton to Blackburn line is also single track.

Do people think there is much chance of the Clitheroe service finally extending onto the S&C within the next few years?

None of the line north of Clitheroe is single track its all double track

 

[Ken H]

As a former resident (and trainspotter!) next to the Blackburn - Hellifield line I know it very well and would love to see services extended beyond Clitheroe, possibly as far as Settle where I believe there is a crossover where trains could reverse. Perhaps 2 or 3 trains each way a day for day trippers to Manchester and vice versa.

I'd also like to see regular Clitheroe - Preston trains too; direct connections to the WCML at Preston would make trips to London and Glasgow so much easier and convenient.

Crossover came out at settle stn when they closed the signal box in the 80's. In fact i dont remember settle box ever being manned. A shuttle from the clitheroe direction would have to reverse at settle jct or blea moor. Unless they remoddeled hellifield so it could reverse trains from the east.

 

[30907]

That sort of "extending a few journeys" idea really messes up the timetabling. Unless the times are constrained so one comes back to Clitheroe about the same time as one goes beyond, there is no train available to run the next working to Manchester. I suspect most residents of Clitheroe and south would value their hourly Manchester service far more than the possibility of a few services northwards.

It would require an extra unit, as I stated, just as the present Dalesrail does (if it runs); the question is how you deploy it - I am not suggesting reducing the Blackburn-Clitheroe frequency.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

None of the line north of Clitheroe is single track its all double track

Much of the Borders railway is! That's North of Clitheroe!

 

[edwin_m]

It would require an extra unit, as I stated, just as the present Dalesrail does (if it runs); the question is how you deploy it - I am not suggesting reducing the Blackburn-Clitheroe frequency.

But my point is that unless the northward services were at very specific (and possibly unattractive) times or more than one extra unit was used, there would be gaps in the southward services.

 

[30907]

But my point is that unless the northward services were at very specific (and possibly unattractive) times or more than one extra unit was used, there would be gaps in the southward services.

And my point was that one extra unit would allow various permutations of leisure service - for example, you could extend alternate trains from Clitheroe to Ribblehead, journey time 50 minutes or so, with an additional ECS from King St to Clitheroe to form the up train whose unit has been "stolen." Obviously depending on paths at Hellifield. Or you could run an independent service Blackburn - Ribblehead every 3 hours. Other destinations are available