GWR Brighton services axed from May timetable change

[RPI]

A shame but not surprising, frees up a unit no doubt too

 

[Wyrleybart]

Maybe DfT see it as one of the many forthcoming ways of reducing diesel miles on electrified routes. Look out for more.

 

[bleeder4]

The writing has been on the wall for this for some time. In between the Covid lockdowns I actually travelled direct from Worcester Foregate St to Brighton on one of these trains, and then back again. I wanted to make a direct return journey between Worcester and Brighton while I still could. Hardly anyone knows about them. When I mentioned to train-savvy work colleagues that I'd been direct on the train between Worcester and Brighton they thought I meant a charter train, they didn't even know you could get direct trains to Brighton. The Weymouth ones are useful also, several times I've done day trips to Weymouth using the direct GWR trains.

 

[dk1]

The writing has been on the wall for this for some time. In between the Covid lockdowns I actually travelled direct from Worcester Foregate St to Brighton on one of these trains, and then back again. I wanted to make a direct return journey between Worcester and Brighton while I still could. Hardly anyone knows about them. When I mentioned to train-savvy work colleagues that I'd been direct on the train between Worcester and Brighton they thought I meant a charter train, they didn't even know you could get direct trains to Brighton. The Weymouth ones are useful also, several times I've done day trips to Weymouth using the direct GWR trains.

Strange that they are train savvy & still don’t know, particularly if they live anywhere near the route of operation. I live near Norwich & have always known they exist.

 

[lodekka]

We use this service to Worcester, Bath and Gloucester quite often and it is very convenient, but as you say, used in the main as a faster service to Southampton. The loadings from there to Bristol are very good, but we knew from the staff that it could not last forever. Avoiding London, it will be via Southampton, Reading to Worcester for us in the future unless they do a morning Portsmouth Worcester train to replace it.

 

[swt_passenger]

We use this service to Worcester, Bath and Gloucester quite often and it is very convenient, but as you say, used in the main as a faster service to Southampton. The loadings from there to Bristol are very good, but we knew from the staff that it could not last forever. Avoiding London, it will be via Southampton, Reading to Worcester for us in the future unless they do a morning Portsmouth Worcester train to replace it.

The nearest thing is a morning Southampton to Great Malvern at 0823, on RTT:

Realtime Trains | 2V58 0823 Southampton Central to Great Malvern | 16/05/2022

Real-time train running information for 2V58 0823 departure from Southampton Central to Great Malvern on 16/05/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

I'm assuming the Fratton to Gloucester at stupid o’clock in the very early morning is not much use to anyone…

 

[Horizon22]

In reality, the GWR service to/from Brighton is, on the whole, a number of regional services joined up together with a few people going intermediately on a very long stretch, but most getting off at major hubs/interchanges of Brighton, Barnham, Southampton, Salisbury, Westbury, Bath, Bristol and then beyond. The usage as far as Southampton from GWR's area seems the most sensible.

 

[WesternLancer]

Posts in this thread question the usage - 2 examples I know of
- my nephew uses it to get to and from university in Bath from East Sussex, and times his travel to make use of it to avoid changing en route (not just at start and end of term times but for weekend trips etc) - he tells me other students in eg the Bristol Bath area use it

- cruise passengers from south wales and Bristol area use it to get to Southampton (no doubt not so much during covid)

This is bad news.

How long has the service on this route operated for? I have used it occasionally since the early 1980s, (using it when it was loco hauled) but I assume it existed back in the 1950s and probably even in pre BR days with a joint GWR/SR service.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

cruise passengers from south wales and Bristol area use it to get to Southampton (no doubt not so much during covid)

There remains an hourly South Wales and Bristol area to Southampton service. That is unaffected by this change.

 

[Bald Rick]

Posts in this thread question the usage - 2 examples I know of
- my nephew uses it to get to and from university in Bath from East Sussex, and times his travel to make use of it to avoid changing en route (not just at start and end of term times but for weekend trips etc) - he tells me other students in eg the Bristol Bath area use it

- cruise passengers from south wales and Bristol area use it to get to Southampton (no doubt not so much during covid)

This is bad news.

that rather proves the point- marginal traffic, in very small numbers. A handful of students using it for a handful of weekends, off peak no doubt with railcards, doth not pay the diesel bills. Especially when many of them will swap to connecting services anyway. (Accepting that some may not).

 

[Horizon22]

Posts in this thread question the usage - 2 examples I know of
- my nephew uses it to get to and from university in Bath from East Sussex, and times his travel to make use of it to avoid changing en route (not just at start and end of term times but for weekend trips etc) - he tells me other students in eg the Bristol Bath area use it

- cruise passengers from south wales and Bristol area use it to get to Southampton (no doubt not so much during covid)

This is bad news.

a) Useful yes, but there are similar length journeys in the country which require 1 or even 2 changes and this is marginal traffic. It is possible to do this with minimal journey time changes (should Southern be able to / willing to service the route in a similar manner Southampton - Brighton or even failing that, a change at Southampton or Fareham.

b) Services to Portsmouth (via Southampton Central) will continue to run and be lengthened, so no issues there.

For me this is a way to consolidate and more efficiently provide for the core flows and give passengers increased comfort with more carriages.

 

[WesternLancer]

that rather proves the point- marginal traffic, in very small numbers. A handful of students using it for a handful of weekends, off peak no doubt with railcards, doth not pay the diesel bills. Especially when many of them will swap to connecting services anyway. (Accepting that some may not).

Of course, but then how many people travel through on eg London to Glasgow? Most fly I would suggest. But no one argues that you should split the Avanti west coast services up into chunks.

a)should Southern be able to / willing to service the route in a similar manner Southampton - Brighton or even failing that, a change at Southampton or Fareham.

But Southern won't do that I suspect - they will just operate their existing hourly Southampton service with its more stations stopping pattern and people will be expected to just use that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course, but then how many people travel through on eg London to Glasgow? Most fly I would suggest. But no one argues that you should split the Avanti west coast services up into chunks.

A twice-a-day regional service and the mainline Avanti service are not quite the same thing, to be fair.

The argument is more like the once or twice-a-day Avanti extensions to e.g. Blackpool and Shrewsbury, and I'm not in favour of those either; quality connections every hour are better.

 

[Horizon22]

Of course, but then how many people travel through on eg London to Glasgow? Most fly I would suggest. But no one argues that you should split the Avanti west coast services up into chunks.

The biggest city in the country, to the 2nd largest Scottish one? I think not and many will do the main journeys

The Brighton - Great Malvern is a huge length of journey for generally regional or even local stops. And it runs only a few times a day. There is obviously a flow down to Southampton via Salisbury which is indeed why the service will continue to go to Portsmouth. Trying to connect lots of local journeys together stitched into one service isn't always particular efficient, not reliable and often runs as a 2 or 3-car due to that being the stock available.

 

[swt_passenger]

a) Useful yes, but there are similar length journeys in the country which require 1 or even 2 changes and this is marginal traffic. It is possible to do this with minimal journey time changes (should Southern be able to / willing to service the route in a similar manner Southampton - Brighton or even failing that, a change at Southampton or Fareham.

b) Services to Portsmouth (via Southampton Central) will continue to run and be lengthened, so no issues there.

For me this is a way to consolidate and more efficiently provide for the core flows and give passengers increased comfort with more carriages.

The unit released, (and it’s theoretically more units on weekends than weekdays), would probably be better used on the various Westbury/Swindon area additional workings - but it also seems to be essential to reinstate all the missing SN coastway services to provide reliable connections via Southampton.

 

[lodekka]

Thanks SWT for looking that up. Bit of an early start to get to Southampton by 8-30, Barnham at 9-45 suited me fine. When you get used to things, change is never too welcome especially when one gets older. I do not remember it but there was a Brighton Devon service years ago, or am I being a bit too nostalgic now. Thanks again for finding that out

 

[Horizon22]

The unit released, (and it’s theoretically more units on weekends than weekdays), would probably be better used on the various Westbury/Swindon area additional workings - but it also seems to be essential to reinstate all the missing SN coastway services to provide reliable connections via Southampton.

As I said above I think the Southern W. Coastway is a little bit disjointed (not helped by the GWR Brighton service!) as you have express stuff from London stopping at some of the key intermediaries before Littlehampton / Bognor, but also the stoppers along the coastway too. I think a bit more thought should in future be given to the calling patterns, timings and the flows in the area. Nothing major but small tweaks (if it doesn't break the rest of the relatively decent Southern timetable).

 

[swt_passenger]

The Brighton - Great Malvern is a huge length of journey for generally regional or even local stops. And it runs only a few times a day. There is obviously a flow down to Southampton via Salisbury which is indeed why the service will continue to go to Portsmouth. Trying to connect lots of local journeys together stitched into one service isn't always particular efficient, not reliable and often runs as a 2 or 3-car due to that being the stock available.

Indeed the recent pre-Covid weekday timetable only had one full eastbound service per day, and only two westbound. The early service was a short working using a unit that stabled at Fratton overnight, 0709 from the Harbour towards Brighton. So no use whatsoever in terms of origins from the western part of the GWR network.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

The unit released

Replaces now withdrawn 158763

 

[swt_passenger]

Replaces now withdrawn 158763

That‘s neat then, saves worrying what to do with it!

 

[Bald Rick]

Of course, but then how many people travel through on eg London to Glasgow? Most fly I would suggest.

By train - getting on for 3000 a day. Delivering an income of, at a guess, in excess of £50m a year.

A rather different scale of travel than the Bristol area to Sussex.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The remains if an eclectic and unusual suite of services dating back to Regional Railways Wales and West and later successors. (like Treherbet to Lostwithiel etc , and discussed before) , there some odd workings lashed together to
give West Wales to Brighton via Worthing !

I do take the point on a further dimunation of Brighton and Coastway links to the wider world - hammered by the demise of XC , but pre-covid there was an attempt to clean up the Brighton - Portsmouth and Brighton - Southampton to good effect.

I suspect some of the "nostalgia" is the loss of one off quirky services versus "boring standardisation" - but there will be some savings not just in units but in train crew competence etc retention.

 

[pompeyfan]

The argument for standardisation is blown out by the fact that GWR are now being made to run additional services to Axminster.

Hopefully they’ll see sense and at least still sign Havant for when there is inevitable disruption around the triangle

 

[swt_passenger]

The argument for standardisation is blown out by the fact that GWR are now being made to run additional services to Axminster.

Hopefully they’ll see sense and at least still sign Havant for when there is inevitable disruption around the triangle

Yes, but the Devon Metro additionals are eventually intended to be a proper all day “cross Exeter” service. Although I don’t remember it ever being explicitly stated I always assumed it would be allocated to GWR to run.

 

[TheBigD]

On a similar topic, how do the economics add up for the once/twice a day InterCity services?

Eg, if you look at LNER, the Inverness and Aberdeen services require an extra 2 sets of 9 car Azumas. 24 sets required for the full Kings Cross- Scotland service as opposed to just 22 if nothing went North of Edinburgh. Potentially drops to 20 sets if the deferred ECML May 2022 timetable goes ahead and you have 30 minute turn rounds in London/Edinburgh.

For example, would it make more economic sense to redeploy the 2 to 4 sets to the main ECML replace the 91s/mk4s than acquiring extra sets to replace them?

Similarly, how do the economics add up for sending 1 set to Hull in the mornings and evenings now that Hull Trains operate a (nearly) 2 hourly service all day?

 

[JonathanH]

Hopefully they’ll see sense and at least still sign Havant for when there is inevitable disruption around the triangle

That is what the bay at Fareham is for.

 

[Bletchleyite]

On a similar topic, how do the economics add up for the once/twice a day InterCity services?

Likely to be better if you can actually well-fill a 9-car set. The Avanti ones are much, much poorer.

 

[nw1]

Unfortunately, not a single Southern service along the route is anywhere near as fast/limited-stop.

That is an issue IMO, there always used to be a fast service at various times along this route.

Even the mostly-CAP-operated '60' semi-fasts from the early 80s were fairly limited stop - they stopped at most stations between Brighton and Worthing, where the heaviest population density is, but then ran fast to Barnham, then Chichester, Southbourne, and Havant.

These were succeeded by the '38' Victoria-Hove-Portsmouth, again pretty limited stop, which then was diverted to Southampton as the '46' post Solent electrification maintaining the same stops, roughly.

Post privatisation we then saw the mixed Reading 159/Basingstoke VEP/Wales and West (as then was) 158 taking the xx00 path out of Brighton, including these services under discussion. So in this era there were actually two fast services along Coastway West, as the '46' still ran.

Now, aside from these GWR services there is nothing fast along Coastway West. One wonders whether they could return to something like the 00s service pattern to allow at least one fast path per hour.

 

[ValleyLines142]

Completely expected. It’s a very expensive way of providing a rather sparse service, that is truly of use to very few people.

about time too. Pointless duplication, and a waste of a GWR unit that could be providing extra capacity in the GWR area.

But of course, it will disrupt that enormous Brighton to Malvern market......

You'd be very surprised - it's regularly full and standing from the Gloucester/Bristol end and right the way through. A handy link for the elderly to save them trekking across London.

I personally would rather see one of the Weymouths cancelled.

 

[387star]

I

You'd be very surprised - it's regularly full and standing from the Gloucester/Bristol end and right the way through. A handy link for the elderly to save them trekking across London.

I personally would rather see one of the Weymouths cancelled.

Reckon this afternoons will be very busy