May 2022 Timetable Changes

[Watershed]

Severe overcrowding is probably needed in order to convince the powers that be that the service needs increasing

I don't think it's a question of persuading the DfT in this case. The original timetable reflects what was intended to run. The revised timetable reflects what realistically can be run.

Are longer trains an option with the reduced timetable continuing which it appears to do all week

Not really, unfortunately.

 

[Greybeard33]

I don't think it's a question of persuading the DfT in this case. The original timetable reflects what was intended to run. The revised timetable reflects what realistically can be run.

I can understand that TPE may not have enough traincrew trained on the 68+Mk5A sets to be able to reinstate the through Scarborough - Liverpool services. But it is puzzling why it should not be possible to resource the rest of the original timetable, i.e. cut back the Newcastle services to Victoria and run separate hourly services between Liverpool and York. That would reduce journey times between Liverpool and Leeds/York (no dwell at Victoria) and increase capacity between Manchester and Leeds/York.

Pre-pandemic, sufficient 802s were in service to work both Newcastle - Manchester Airport and Liverpool - Edinburgh.

 

[Watershed]

I can understand that TPE may not have enough traincrew trained on the 68+Mk5A sets to be able to reinstate the through Scarborough - Liverpool services. But it is puzzling why it should not be possible to resource the rest of the original timetable, i.e. cut back the Newcastle services to Victoria and run separate hourly services between Liverpool and York. That would reduce journey times between Liverpool and Leeds/York (no dwell at Victoria) and increase capacity between Manchester and Leeds/York.

Pre-pandemic, sufficient 802s were in service to work both Newcastle - Manchester Airport and Liverpool - Edinburgh.

Unless and until there's a RDW agreement again, I see little prospect of the timetable increasing by any significant margin.

The ratio of 'trains operated' to 'traincrew needed' is far from linear. Significant cuts are often needed to save just a relatively small amount of crew.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I can understand that TPE may not have enough traincrew trained on the 68+Mk5A sets to be able to reinstate the through Scarborough - Liverpool services. But it is puzzling why it should not be possible to resource the rest of the original timetable, i.e. cut back the Newcastle services to Victoria and run separate hourly services between Liverpool and York. That would reduce journey times between Liverpool and Leeds/York (no dwell at Victoria) and increase capacity between Manchester and Leeds/York.

Pre-pandemic, sufficient 802s were in service to work both Newcastle - Manchester Airport and Liverpool - Edinburgh.

Given they've got all the 185's as well then presumably they could use those with existing traincrew rather than diverting reduced resources at least through the summer onto training.

 

[Jturner98]

Is the southeastern May 2022 timetable available yet? Also does anyone know if the remaining class 321/322 will be phased out by the May timetable change?

 

[Bald Rick]

Is the southeastern May 2022 timetable available yet?

Yes it’s all on real-time trains

 

[Jturner98]

Yes it’s all on real-time trains

Thank you

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Is the southeastern May 2022 timetable available yet? Also does anyone know if the remaining class 321/322 will be phased out by the May timetable change?

I would imagine that with only 1 new 720/wk being commissioned on average they certainly won't have sufficient to see off 321/322 and 317's by May.

 

[WessexRails]

There’s many stations which used to have 2tph that are currently having to make do with 1tph.

Extending the stopper back to Poole is very resource hungry for a train which was always very lightly loaded beyond Bournemouth.

Branksome has had good levels of patronage whenever I have been there over the last months. Disappointing to read this, as we approach the summer season, the area is very congested, and it's a shame rail doesn't provide a decent option for inter-BCP transport

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Branksome has had good levels of patronage whenever I have been there over the last months. Disappointing to read this, as we approach the summer season, the area is very congested, and it's a shame rail doesn't provide a decent option for inter-BCP transport

The solution for Branksome is probably an additional stop rather than extending another train to Poole.

 

[30907]

The solution for Branksome is probably an additional stop rather than extending another train to Poole.

Given that it would be the "semi-fast" East of Bournemouth, yes.

I notice that Hamworthy gets 2tph, Branksome 1 - does that reflect demand?

 

[Southern Dvr]

Given that it would be the "semi-fast" East of Bournemouth, yes.

I notice that Hamworthy gets 2tph, Branksome 1 - does that reflect demand?

You’d think as it’s the nearest station to the depot that more would serve it in order to get the depot staff there.

 

[308165]

Slightly surprised to see Northern's 07:25 Skipton to Carnforth will start back from Bradford at 06:41 and call all stations to Skipton.

Presumably frees up an EMU for some reason?

What is more worrying is that realtime trains suggests that Bradford - Ilkley and Bradford - Skipton are reduced to an hourly service from May, from the current half hourly service.

 

[Fisherman80]

What is more worrying is that realtime trains suggests that Bradford - Ilkley and Bradford - Skipton are reduced to an hourly service from May, from the current half hourly service.

I noticed that myself. Very worrying indeed.

 

[WessexRails]

A smart suggestion to stop an existing service rather than extend the stopper. I live in hope.

2019/20 numbers are 134,000 for Hamworthy and 291,000 for Branksome

 

[308165]

I noticed that myself. Very worrying indeed.

The odd thing is that Airedale and Wharfedale have both avoided changes during the pandemic (other than in the depths of lockdowns), so it's not obvious what is driving this change now.

 

[Kite159]

The odd thing is that Airedale and Wharfedale have both avoided changes during the pandemic (other than in the depths of lockdowns), so it's not obvious what is driving this change now.

I can remember the Ilkley line being hourly on both Leeds & Bradford services during August 2020, at least off-peak.

Guess it's the DFT demanding cost savings.

 

[Halish Railway]

I can remember the Ilkley line being hourly on both Leeds & Bradford services during August 2020, at least off-peak.

Guess it's the DFT demanding cost savings.

They resumed an almost pre-Covid service on the 14th September IIRC. If this is down to Covid cost cutting then it is quite worrying - There is a reason why both of these services have been half-hourly since 1995 (At least I think that’s the date).

What’s even worse is that the 15:16 & 16:16 Bradford to Ilkley, as well as the 15:51 Ilkley to Bradford trains are missing, both of which saw custom from at least 100 Schoolchildren each, maybe 200 on some, although at least the 07:48 Ilkley to Bradford is still in the schedule, another service well used by Schoolchildren. Completely idiotic.

 

[Deerfold]

Slightly surprised to see Northern's 07:25 Skipton to Carnforth will start back from Bradford at 06:41 and call all stations to Skipton.

Presumably frees up an EMU for some reason?

That's an odd train. ECS Leeds to Skipton *and* Carnforth to Lancaster. Anyone know why it's ECS for that last bit? Can't see much demand for people going to Carnforth compared to Lancaster. There is another service to Lancaster not long after, but the train goes there anyway!

 

[Adam0984]

That's an odd train. ECS Leeds to Skipton *and* Carnforth to Lancaster. Anyone know why it's ECS for that last bit? Can't see much demand for people going to Carnforth compared to Lancaster. There is another service to Lancaster not long after, but the train goes there anyway!

The Carnforth to Lancaster ECS stops in the Goods Loop for 11 mins. It runs ECS from Leeds at the moment and starts from Bradford from May because they couldn't get a passenger path out of Leeds

 

[Halish Railway]

That's an odd train. ECS Leeds to Skipton *and* Carnforth to Lancaster. Anyone know why it's ECS for that last bit?

If the service from Skipton had a 1 minute dwell at Carnforth it would arrive into Lancaster at 08:34 1/2.

At Lancaster there is an 08:35 arrival from Morecambe that it would conflict with. It can’t wait for that to go in front as at 08:38 there is a Glasgow to London train and the next path is taken by a Barrow to Manchester Airport service which passengers from Skipton/Bradford can change onto at Carnforth.

 

[308165]

The Carnforth to Lancaster ECS stops in the Goods Loop for 11 mins. It runs ECS from Leeds at the moment and starts from Bradford from May because they couldn't get a passenger path out of Leeds

It is a very odd train. It is the successor to the 07:19 Leeds - Lancaster which ran until 2020. I'm not sure why that path hasn't been reused, my only thought is that the current service at least gives an arrival in Lancaster (by Interchange at Carnforth) before 0900, whereas the 07:19 didn't.

 

[Bald Rick]

That's an odd train. ECS Leeds to Skipton *and* Carnforth to Lancaster. Anyone know why it's ECS for that last bit? Can't see much demand for people going to Carnforth compared to Lancaster. There is another service to Lancaster not long after, but the train goes there anyway!

probably driver training. Lots of it going on.

 

[30907]

probably driver training. Lots of it going on.

Don't think that's the prime reason though - it started as a passenger throughout running half an hour later (which explains why there's a long layover at Lancaster) and got tweaked to get a pre-0900 arrival (even the ECS makes it by then!).

 

[Deerfold]

If the service from Skipton had a 1 minute dwell at Carnforth it would arrive into Lancaster at 08:34 1/2.

At Lancaster there is an 08:35 arrival from Morecambe that it would conflict with. It can’t wait for that to go in front as at 08:38 there is a Glasgow to London train and the next path is taken by a Barrow to Manchester Airport service which passengers from Skipton/Bradford can change onto at Carnforth.

Surely there can't be that much to stop it just running later from Skipton? Though I'm guessing if it was that simple, they'd do it. I'll be honest, I hadn't realised it existed. I've been travelling from Keighley, Steeton or Skipton to Lancaster quite a lot recently, but I've largely checked for trains running between Skipton and Lancaster without thinking there would be one terminating at Carnforth (where we tend to wait for a few minutes, anyway).

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Overview of timetable changes for May and beyond as reported to todays Rail North Partnership operational update

https://democracy.transportforthenorth.com/documents/s4263/RNP Operational Update.pdf

 

[Bald Rick]

Overview of timetable changes for May and beyond as reported to todays Rail North Partnership operational update

https://democracy.transportforthenorth.com/documents/s4263/RNP Operational Update.pdf

Note the quantity of training being done by TPE.

 

[Andyh82]

They resumed an almost pre-Covid service on the 14th September IIRC. If this is down to Covid cost cutting then it is quite worrying - There is a reason why both of these services have been half-hourly since 1995 (At least I think that’s the date).

What’s even worse is that the 15:16 & 16:16 Bradford to Ilkley, as well as the 15:51 Ilkley to Bradford trains are missing, both of which saw custom from at least 100 Schoolchildren each, maybe 200 on some, although at least the 07:48 Ilkley to Bradford is still in the schedule, another service well used by Schoolchildren. Completely idiotic.

That’s pretty poor, I’m thinking links like Keighley to Bradford which surely justify more than once an hour

I can’t see the local council and mayor being happy about this, they are still smarting from the Northern Powerhouse Rail announcement

 

[CAF397]

Note the quantity of training being done by TPE.

The quantity of training done in 2021 was less, plus there was a RDW agreement in place.

The quantity for 2022 is more, and there's currently no RDW in place.

 

[30907]

That’s pretty poor, I’m thinking links like Keighley to Bradford which surely justify more than once an hour

Except that apart from school and college traffic they load significantly less well than Leeds services (including the ones from Foster Sq.). Some tweaking for specific flows ought to be done, I agree - and no doubt residents of parts of Baildon will be unhappy.