Hundreds of railway ticket offices could be closed

[High Dyke]

You are entitled to board and pay at the first opportunity if there is not one at your origin.

It's about time RSTL updated their information on that very circumstance.

This isn't being a 'jobsworth', it's pointing out that you have not done what the law calls upon you to do. Why do you have a problem with that? The criticism seen here is that tickets are sold on trains without the buyers being advised why they should not be relying on that.

Call it paranoia about avoiding a Travel Irregularity using a PRIV. I've already a few discussions with various TOC staff about validity on trains, other than the TOC that issued the pass (where reciprocal arrangements apply). Those discussions can elicit a range of differing responses.

 

[Haywain]

It's about time RSTL updated their information on that very circumstance.

When did you last read the information on using Priv? Because that is exactly what it says:

If you start your journey from a station with an open ticket office, you must purchase a ticket before you board the train. If you start your journey from a station with no open ticket office, you can buy a priv-rate ticket on board (unless there is a penalty fare area in operation and the ticket vending machine has a promise to pay option. In this case, you must purchase a promise to pay before boarding the train).

 

[AlterEgo]

Is it intended that the very large railway stations (such as those currently managed by Network Rail) will still keep booking offices open?

It seems inconceivable to close booking offices at very large stations like that.

 

[Haywain]

It seems inconceivable to close booking offices at very large stations like that.

Although they are likely to be reduced in size and/or have opening hours trimmed (this has already happened in places).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Although they are likely to be reduced in size and/or have opening hours trimmed (this has already happened in places).

They can also be replaced by a bank of TVMs with assistance staff walking round. Birmingham New St mostly operates like that, there are a few traditional windows but they're often closed.

 

[Philip]

Although they are likely to be reduced in size and/or have opening hours trimmed (this has already happened in places).

Where has it said that opening hours are likely to be reduced or the offices reduced in size? This seems to be speculation not bases on any actual reporting. Opening hours can't just be changed like that either because the rosters and rest day pattern for the staff would need to be changed and this would probably require a vote.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Where has it said that opening hours are likely to be reduced or the offices reduced in size? This seems to be speculation not bases on any actual reporting. Opening hours can't just be changed like that either because the rosters and rest day pattern for the staff would need to be changed and this would probably require a vote.

Because it's so easy to provide alternatives (be that managers with ticket machines, the existing TVMs or whatever), a booking office strike will have no practical effect on anything, so the views of the Unions are basically irrelevant.

It's hard to go DOO because the Unions can massively disrupt the service (see Southern). Ticket office staff don't, in 2022, hold that power.

 

[Philip]

Because it's so easy to provide alternatives (be that managers with ticket machines, the existing TVMs or whatever), a booking office strike will have no practical effect on anything, so the views of the Unions are basically irrelevant.

I never mentioned a strike, I said that a change to the roster and rest day pattern would probably need a vote by the staff before it can be pushed through - this has happened beforehand. If opening hours are to be changed then the roster has to be changed. Also closing a ticket office but redeployed the staff outside wouldn't save a huge amount because the staff wages still need paying.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I never mentioned a strike, I said that a change to the roster and rest day pattern would probably need a vote by the staff before it can be pushed through - this has happened beforehand. If opening hours are to be changed then the roster has to be changed. Also closing a ticket office but redeployed the staff outside wouldn't save a huge amount because the staff wages still need paying.

You can have the vote if you wish, but because the Union holds no clout even if you vote against they can proceed with it. A Union has no power if a strike won't significantly affect the business. This is how the Southern DOO dispute ended - once the drivers agreed it, the guards lost most of their power, because most services could switch to DOO anyway so the guards lost the ability to disrupt them.

As with self checkouts, you can have fewer staff if they're just providing assistance with TVM use.

 

[43066]

I have found many pubs have started taking cards since 2020, but didn't take them before, or only for larger orders, e.g. above 5 or 10 pounds. But we will all have visited different pubs. There are comparably few pubs now that don't take card - but there are some, as there are some takeaways that are still cash only.

Indeed, although there aren’t many pubs like that these days (at least not that I’ve been to).

Cash handling costs a lot and of course creates a security risk, both in terms of light fingered staff and needing to get takings to the bank safely.

I never mentioned a strike, I said that a change to the roster and rest day pattern would probably need a vote by the staff before it can be pushed through - this has happened beforehand. If opening hours are to be changed then the roster has to be changed. Also closing a ticket office but redeployed the staff outside wouldn't save a huge amount because the staff wages still need paying.

I think the point is there is little bargaining power and ticket offices are likely to be seen as a softer target than other areas. Hopefully the unions can be instrumental in assisting with redeployment to other areas, but won’t be able to do much beyond this. If you work in a ticket office I appreciate it must be a worrying time, but it’s probably worth considering what you might like to look at as an alternative.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed, although there aren’t many pubs like that these days (at least not that I’ve been to).

Cash handling costs a lot and of course creates a security risk, both in terms of light fingered staff and needing to get takings to the bank safely.

Indeed. But one of the features of cash is that if you have any of it at all, those costs still exist, because they're mostly fixed costs, e.g. of taking the contents of the till to the bank each day. The real saving comes when you cease using it entirely.

 

[northwichcat]

I wonder where this leaves Northwich, where the ticket office is currently closed because the building collapsed due to not being properly maintained. It's been reported Network Rail are to reconstruct it but will it be staffed after it's reconstructed? And what about buildings on the network that are in a similar condition, will they be maintained if Network Rail is unable to find suitable tenants for them or left until they also collapse?

 

[Haywain]

Where has it said that opening hours are likely to be reduced or the offices reduced in size? This seems to be speculation not bases on any actual reporting. Opening hours can't just be changed like that either because the rosters and rest day pattern for the staff would need to be changed and this would probably require a vote.

I'm telling you, and can assure you that it is not speculation. Two large Network Rail managed stations have very recently seen ticket offices working to new rosters, and in one case the number of operational windows has halved.

 

[43066]

Indeed. But one of the features of cash is that if you have any of it at all, those costs still exist, because they're mostly fixed costs, e.g. of taking the contents of the till to the bank each day. The real saving comes when you cease using it entirely.

True. Equally there aren’t yet many hospitality establishments which are cashless (IME).

 

[philthetube]

You still see this happening on trains on rural routes where there are no TVMs occasionally. Someone will try to pay the guard contactless, it won't work and then they put their card in and boom. Not always though. I suspect there may be some cards that will always decline if they're not online?

Some cards are not en abled for contactless

 

[northwichcat]

I never mentioned a strike, I said that a change to the roster and rest day pattern would probably need a vote by the staff before it can be pushed through - this has happened beforehand. If opening hours are to be changed then the roster has to be changed. Also closing a ticket office but redeployed the staff outside wouldn't save a huge amount because the staff wages still need paying.

I don't think there is one unionised working pattern for ticket office staff. At a station like Hale, there's one person doing weekday shifts finishing early afternoon each day. While down the line at Knutsford the person who does the early shifts one week, does the late shift the next and they have a day off in the week and work a weekend day.

There's also some stations where ticket office staff only sell tickets and others where they undertake other duties too. At some stations, like Knutsford, there's a risk indoor waiting areas and the main entrance will have reduced hours if the ticket office has reduced hours. The problem with the latter has already been demonstrated when the ticket office is closed due to a staffing shortage and revenue inspectors are present - it created crowd control problems.

 

[philthetube]

I was in a pub in Ipswich last weekend that didn't take cash at the bar. According to the bar man if you came in insisting on paying in cash they sent you to the office downstairs who placed an online order that was either delivered to a table or you could wait in the service area. All the tills had been taken away from the bar area so it wasn't a temporary thing.

Sounds as though it must be managed by imbeciles.

Only one till to cash up, count float for etc.

Only one member of staff to keep an eye on for honesty

lots of positives for the company.

 

[Haywain]

I don't think there is one unionised working pattern for ticket office staff.

It's a highly unionised industry and all working patterns are likely to be on rosters which have been agreed with union representatives.

 

[northwichcat]

I suspect there may be some cards that will always decline if they're not online?

If you're under 18 or have a basic account which doesn't allow you to go overdrawn, then there has to be a check that there are sufficient funds before the transaction is accepted.

It's a highly unionised industry and all working patterns are likely to be on rosters which have been agreed with union representatives.

I didn't say it's not unionised, I said there can't be just one unionised working pattern. If the union has already agreed suitable rosters for ticket offices only open on weekday mornings then what's to stop those rosters being applied to stations where currently there's two shifts? Or what's to stop the train operator not employing a replacement member of staff for someone who leaves or retires, leaving a station unstaffed?

 

[Haywain]

I said there can't be just one unionised working pattern. If the union has already agreed suitable rosters for ticket offices only open on weekday mornings then what's to stop those rosters being applied to stations where currently there's two shifts?

You obviously don't understand how these things work. There will be rosters for various different groups of staff at one or more locations. By agreement they cannot be randomly imposed on other groups of staff or locations. And in many cases, the rosters are designed by the staff groups involved rather than by management, depending on local practices (I was once given a severe dressing down by a senior union rep for daring to suggest a new roster that I had drawn up for their members!).

Or what's to stop the train operator not employing a replacement member of staff for someone who leaves or retires, leaving a station unstaffed?

Nothing at all, but that doesn't mean a roster changes, it means an uncovered turn in an existing roster.

 

[High Dyke]

When did you last read the information on using Priv? Because that is exactly what it says:

If you start your journey from a station with an open ticket office, you must purchase a ticket before you board the train. If you start your journey from a station with no open ticket office, you can buy a priv-rate ticket on board (unless there is a penalty fare area in operation and the ticket vending machine has a promise to pay option. In this case, you must purchase a promise to pay before boarding the train).

That's the point I was trying to make. The ticket office is closed, the TVM does not have a permit to travel / promise to pay option. Experienced this a few months ago travelling from Whyteleafe South.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some cards are not en abled for contactless

True, though it's not likely someone whose card was not enabled for contactless would try to use it that way, as they'd know well it wouldn't work.

At many banks you can now zero the limit yourself, though that's held on the bank's side not on the card, so you'd need to try an authorisation to find out.

 

[Haywain]

That's the point I was trying to make. The ticket office is closed, the TVM does not have a permit to travel / promise to pay option. Experienced this a few months ago travelling from Whyteleafe South.

In that case you ignore the whole of the bit in brackets, and buy on board or at your destination. Or, when it is finally introduced, online.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Only one till to cash up, count float for etc.

Only one member of staff to keep an eye on for honesty

lots of positives for the company.

I'm surprised @miklcct didn't pipe up here - isn't in the case that at some Asian "food courts" that you go to a till to pay cash and get vouchers or a charged stored-value card, then go and buy your food with that, going back to the till for a refund if you didn't spend it all?

Another similar quirk was that in the 1990s in Kwik Save if you wanted to pay by cheque you had to first go to the customer services desk, where they'd verify your guarantee card was valid, endorse the cheque and mark it as payable to Kwik Save Ltd (or whatever it was) with a rubber stamp, then you'd take it and pay with it at the till. Individual checkout operators weren't allowed to do it.

In that case you ignore the whole of the bit in brackets, and buy on board or at your destination. Or, when it is finally introduced, online.

An interesting question about this new portal is whether use of it will be mandatory, or if it'll be optional like using your phone is for all passengers now.

 

[yorksrob]

Disagree, when I see the trade people all roll up with cash at my local still in overalls jumping out of their company names on their vans and I have been taxed through PAYE then it's really annoys me.

Same at the railway booking office, rolls £20 and £50 notes all heading off to Cheltenham.

I'm sorry, but what's has the effectiveness (or otherwise) HMRC have to do with citizens right to use cash for everyday small transactions ?

By your argument you should be in favour of getting rid of cash altogether.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm sorry, but what's has the effectiveness (or otherwise) HMRC have to do with citizens right to use cash for everyday small transactions ?

By your argument you should be in favour of getting rid of cash altogether.

Some of us pretty much are. It's inconvenient, it's heavy, it is irreplacable if stolen, it is at the root of the vast majority of crime...

 

[Haywain]

An interesting question about this new portal is whether use of it will be mandatory, or if it'll be optional like using your phone is for all passengers now.

I would expect it will be optional, as the same challenges will exist as for anyone else buying tickets, in that some things are not easily sold online. It's more about recognition of the reduced and reducing opportunities to buy at stations.

citizens right to use cash for everyday small transactions ?

Does such a 'right' actually exist?

 

[yorksrob]

Some of us pretty much are. It's inconvenient, it's heavy, it is irreplacable if stolen, it is at the root of the vast majority of crime...

I think you'll find that is the desire for wealth that is the root cause of most crime, rather than specifically the format of that wealth.

I would expect it will be optional, as the same challenges will exist as for anyone else buying tickets, in that some things are not easily sold online. It's more about recognition of the reduced and reducing opportunities to buy at stations.

Does such a 'right' actually exist?

I don't suppose there is a codified right for us not to have the country turn in a technological dystopia, no sadly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think you'll find that is the desire for wealth that is the root cause of most crime, rather than specifically the format of that wealth.

Fair point, but cash enables that (as does the likes of Bitcoin, which is why Governments are wary of it and many are banning it). Hiding crime in normal UK bank accounts and when paying by credit/debit card or bank transfer is very hard if not impossible.

 

[High Dyke]

In that case you ignore the whole of the bit in brackets, and buy on board or at your destination. Or, when it is finally introduced, online.