Hundreds of railway ticket offices could be closed

[yorksrob]

Fair point, but cash enables that (as does the likes of Bitcoin, which is why Governments are wary of it and many are banning it). Hiding crime in normal UK bank accounts and when paying by credit/debit card or bank transfer is very hard if not impossible.

It's also probably more difficult to transfer your pile of reddies to an offshore bank account than it is to do an electronic transaction.

 

[Haywain]

I don't suppose there is a codified right for us not to have the country turn in a technological dystopia, no sadly.

There is no such right, and having one would deny traders a choice of how to do business.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There is no such right, and having one would deny traders a choice of how to do business.

And a choice for customers of how they wish to do business. I do not wish to use cash, and so I favour businesses which do not require me to use it.

In the end if you dislike how a company does business, don't do business with them. If you think it'll make any difference, tell them why you're not.

 

[yorksrob]

There is no such right, and having one would deny traders a choice of how to do business.

As I'm sure you're well aware, there are many occasions where we deny traders a choice of how to do business.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As I'm sure you're well aware, there are many occasions where we deny traders a choice of how to do business.

We don't however do it in support of people with a minority view where that view is not directly resulting from a protected characteristic. Particularly not where that adds cost.

 

[Philip]

I think the point is there is little bargaining power and ticket offices are likely to be seen as a softer target than other areas. Hopefully the unions can be instrumental in assisting with redeployment to other areas, but won’t be able to do much beyond this. If you work in a ticket office I appreciate it must be a worrying time, but it’s probably worth considering what you might like to look at as an alternative.

In the end what will be will be and that's life, it's just a bit irritating seeing some comments here seemingly a bit dismissive of the role ticket offices play in the running of the railway and helping passengers, particularly when it comes to problems either with the ticket or journey disruption.

Busy station ticket offices are nowadays well patronised pretty much all day up to 7pm or so, so for people to just suggest that opening hours should be cut or the office completely closed, it doesn't necessarily reflect an accurate picture of what goes on at the places in question, and the needs of/benefits to passengers.

 

[Class800]

is not directly resulting from a protected characteristic

Age? As cash usage is highest in older people

 

[Bletchleyite]

Age? As cash usage is highest in older people

Might have worked 20 years ago, but these days pretty much everyone of any age (bar young children) has a bank account with a debit card, even if it's an "online only" one.

Elderly people are now people like my parents who both have smartphones and are never off the things, never mind debit cards.

 

[philthetube]

I don't think there is one unionised working pattern for ticket office staff. At a station like Hale, there's one person doing weekday shifts finishing early afternoon each day. While down the line at Knutsford the person who does the early shifts one week, does the late shift the next and they have a day off in the week and work a weekend day.

There's also some stations where ticket office staff only sell tickets and others where they undertake other duties too. At some stations, like Knutsford, there's a risk indoor waiting areas and the main entrance will have reduced hours if the ticket office has reduced hours. The problem with the latter has already been demonstrated when the ticket office is closed due to a staffing shortage and revenue inspectors are present - it created crowd control problems.

I suspect that these are mutually agreed changes between staff.

True, though it's not likely someone whose card was not enabled for contactless would try to use it that way, as they'd know well it wouldn't work.

At many banks you can now zero the limit yourself, though that's held on the bank's side not on the card, so you'd need to try an authorisation to find out.

Having just spent three months conducting on trams I can assure you that there are quite a few who do not realise that their cards are not contactless.

 

[Class800]

Might have worked 20 years ago, but these days pretty much everyone of any age (bar young children) has a bank account with a debit card, even if it's an "online only" one.

Elderly people are now people like my parents who both have smartphones and are never off the things, never mind debit cards.

Among the elderly people I know, some don't have online banking, but I am not aware of any who don't have a card, although some don't take it with them, citing security concerns. So, maybe the issue is less than in the past. But leading an organisation in the community with many older people, many 40 years my senior, I always try to be aware of the needs of the older citizens, so it does grate on me when a choice of cash or card isn't offered

 

[northwichcat]

You obviously don't understand how these things work. There will be rosters for various different groups of staff at one or more locations. By agreement they cannot be randomly imposed on other groups of staff or locations. And in many cases, the rosters are designed by the staff groups involved rather than by management, depending on local practices (I was once given a severe dressing down by a senior union rep for daring to suggest a new roster that I had drawn up for their members!).

I didn't say or imply a train operator or any employer could force new working patterns on to their staff without their consent. Do you not think some of the staff who have a roster including a Saturday might jump at the chance of being told they now only need to work weekdays and can spend all of every weekend with their family? Are you implying the union would block their members from changing to another approved roster pattern without the union agreeing to change the roster for that ticket office?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Having just spent three months conducting on trams I can assure you that there are quite a few who do not realise that their cards are not contactless.

I suspect they very much do, but are trying it on. It's only disabled if you ask it to be, the default is to issue with it. And if it didn't work last time it wouldn't be expected to work this time either.

Foreign tourists perhaps less so.

Among the elderly people I know, some don't have online banking, but I am not aware of any who don't have a card, although some don't take it with them, citing security concerns.

That's something where education is needed. It is objectively safer to carry a card than cash. If a card is stolen and you report it promptly, any money stolen is refunded.

 

[Class800]

I suspect they very much do, but are trying it on. It's only disabled if you ask it to be, the default is to issue with it. And if it didn't work last time it wouldn't be expected to work this time either.

Foreign tourists perhaps less so.



That's something where education is needed. It is objectively safer to carry a card than cash. If a card is stolen and you report it promptly, any money stolen is refunded.

Probably right

 

[43066]

Among the elderly people I know, some don't have online banking, but I am not aware of any who don't have a card, although some don't take it with them, citing security concerns. So, maybe the issue is less than in the past. But leading an organisation in the community with many older people, many 40 years my senior, I always try to be aware of the needs of the older citizens, so it does grate on me when a choice of cash or card isn't offered

I do think this is a dying stereotype, though. It’s a bit of a myth that anyone over 60 can’t use a mobile phone and is terrified of technology. Especially as much modern technology is so user friendly. My late granddad mastered using an iPad in his late 80s, having never used more than a typewriter prior to that.

Credit and debit cards of various kinds have been around and mainstream since at least the early 80s(?)*, so there simply won’t that many people who only know how to use cash. Some might prefer it, to, of course, but then you’re back to the point of why should businesses (and therefore other customers) suffer that additional cost because a few wish to make that choice?

*answering my own question, they’ve been around since the 1950s, with cards with magnetic stripes (so approximately as we know them today) appearing in the 80s.

 

[Watershed]

An interesting question about this new portal is whether use of it will be mandatory, or if it'll be optional like using your phone is for all passengers now.

At the moment, RSTL are saying it will be optional and in addition to the option to buy at a ticket office or onboard. I doubt whether that will last; if the system is introduced without too many hiccups I could see it quickly becoming the only way to buy Priv tickets.

There would still be somewhat of an issue for flows where e-tickets aren't enabled, and which don't have a ticket office or a ticket machine capable of fulfilling ToD bookings - though those must make up a very small percentage of overall Priv journeys.

 

[northwichcat]

Credit and debit cards of various kinds have been around and mainstream since at least the early 80s(?)*, so there simply won’t that many people who only know how to use cash.

Even in the 00s, soon before chip and pin came in, I can recall payment at a station meant they had to print off something for you to sign and you were given a carbon copy receipt that included your full card details and signature. It was quicker to pay by cash and paying by cash didn't result in you giving a slip of paper that needed shredding afterwards.

The older generation will also be familiar with retailers not taking cards and having to use their cards to guarantee cheques, while the younger generation will find that a bizarre concept.

That's something where education is needed. It is objectively safer to carry a card than cash. If a card is stolen and you report it promptly, any money stolen is refunded.

I'm not sure it's education but reluctant to change. My mother insisted that I gave her a cheque, rather than paid money directly in to her bank account. I pointed out her account number and sort code are on any cheque she writes, so there's no security issue. Plus she would have the money cleared in her account sooner and wouldn't need to go to the bank to pay it in. But no she wanted a cheque.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not sure it's education but reluctant to change.

And groundless reluctance to change is not something we have to accommodate, legally or morally.

 

[yorksrob]

And groundless reluctance to change is not something we have to accommodate, legally or morally.

Neither is a half-baked obsession with technology and gadgetry.

 

[stuu]

Fair point, but cash enables that (as does the likes of Bitcoin, which is why Governments are wary of it and many are banning it). Hiding crime in normal UK bank accounts and when paying by credit/debit card or bank transfer is very hard if not impossible.

I think you would be very surprised. Low level dealers in illicit substances will often set up a front company with a bank account that they can accept bank transfers in and out. No danger of getting found with a big wedge of unexplained cash that way. There is very little surveillance of bank accounts where low amounts like £50-£200 are regularly paid in and out

 

[robert thomas]

Merely an example to show that charges for issuing paper tickets already exist... not impossible that becomes the norm when alternatives are available.

But trainline charges you a fee for all tickets

 

[Bletchleyite]

But trainline charges you a fee for all tickets

It doesn't charge for walk-up e-tickets bought on the day of travel on the app.

 

[py_megapixel]

Neither is a half-baked obsession with technology and gadgetry.

It's no longer half-baked. Smartphones are not a particularly new technology now - it's almost 15 years since the release of the first iPhone, and that wasn't even really the first smartphone, just the first one to look like what we have today. You can now buy one from a supermarket for 50 quid and it will be more than capable of purchasing and displaying e-tickets.

Not everyone will want to do that, of course, but I fail to see why in the long term, the people who do should subsidise them.

 

[northwichcat]

It's no longer half-baked. Smartphones are not a particularly new technology now - it's almost 15 years since the release of the first iPhone

Not sure of the relevance of that. The first iPhone didn't even allow MMS using official apps, never mind m-tickets. The iPhone was Apple's attempt to produce a touch screen competitor to the Blackberry, that was effectively a PDA and phone merged in to one.

The development of apps was partly a response to Steve Job's controversial decision to not allow Adobe Flash Player to be installed on the iPhone. Even in 2022 there's companies producing apps because they think it's trendy, not because they are useful tools for customers. I downloaded a travel app the other day and after looking at it, I immediately deleted it. It worked by extracting information from other websites and displaying it in the app, sometimes cutting it off. I can use Google to do everything the app offered.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not sure of the relevance of that. The first iPhone didn't even allow MMS using official apps, never mind m-tickets.

The first iPhone could display e-mails and PDF documents. Apple were correct that MMS had no future. Who on earth uses it now?

Mobile ticketing goes back further than that. Arriva, the bus company that pioneered the concept in the UK, had small Java based apps that ran on featurephones, never mind smartphones, well before the iPhone was even a thing. You downloaded it on your PC and pushed it to your phone via the sync cable, if I recall. There was even a Gmail app for them.

Nothing new about any of it.

 

[bramling]

Disagree, when I see the trade people all roll up with cash at my local still in overalls jumping out of their company names on their vans and I have been taxed through PAYE then it's really annoys me.

Same at the railway booking office, rolls £20 and £50 notes all heading off to Cheltenham.

It does amaze me this is something which hasn’t really been clamped down on over the years.

A year or two back we had a tradesman who turned out to be dubious in a number of ways, one of which was that he wanted payment into a personal bank account of what appeared to be an unrelated private individual. I declined to do it and paid a cheque in the end, which was received, albeit extremely grudgingly. I had words with HMRC afterwards about it, but they weren’t really interested.

 

[skyhigh]

But trainline charges you a fee for all tickets

They do not. No fee for tickets purchased on the day (when delivered as e-tickets, or for ToD where e-tickets are not available).

 

[bramling]

I suspect they very much do, but are trying it on. It's only disabled if you ask it to be, the default is to issue with it. And if it didn't work last time it wouldn't be expected to work this time either.

Foreign tourists perhaps less so.



That's something where education is needed. It is objectively safer to carry a card than cash. If a card is stolen and you report it promptly, any money stolen is refunded.

The only issue with the latter is if you’re marched to a cash point and forced into entering your pin, as happened to someone I know. However this can be mitigated against by not keeping too much in a current account (which is good practice anyway). Likewise keep a low credit limit if one doesn’t need a higher one.

At the moment, RSTL are saying it will be optional and in addition to the option to buy at a ticket office or onboard. I doubt whether that will last; if the system is introduced without too many hiccups I could see it quickly becoming the only way to buy Priv tickets.

There would still be somewhat of an issue for flows where e-tickets aren't enabled, and which don't have a ticket office or a ticket machine capable of fulfilling ToD bookings - though those must make up a very small percentage of overall Priv journeys.

It would certainly allow some “patterning” to take place on the practice of using PRIV tickets for daily work journeys. I know a few people who have been doing this for years on and off, without issue, though I do know of someone who got in hot water.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The only issue with the latter is if you’re marched to a cash point and forced into entering your pin, as happened to someone I know. However this can be mitigated against by not keeping too much in a current account (which is good practice anyway). Likewise keep a low credit limit if one doesn’t need a higher one.

With some banks you can configure the daily cash withdrawal limit which mitigates this to being the same as the effect of your wallet containing cash being stolen. Few people now need to withdraw large sums of cash; the vast majority of people now use cash only for small "petty" items. The default daily limit is typically £250-£300 on most accounts, but £50 would probably be more than plenty for most people these days.

It's also possible that if a crime number is provided some banks may refund this out of goodwill, though it's one of the odd cases where they don't actually have to.

 

[43066]

Even in the 00s, soon before chip and pin came in, I can recall payment at a station meant they had to print off something for you to sign and you were given a carbon copy receipt that included your full card details and signature. It was quicker to pay by cash and paying by cash didn't result in you giving a slip of paper that needed shredding afterwards.

The older generation will also be familiar with retailers not taking cards and having to use their cards to guarantee cheques, while the younger generation will find that a bizarre concept.

It’s quite common to still be offered a paper receipt, even when making a contactless transaction, which I always find bizarre!

The stereotype of “old aunt Dorris who can’t programme her video recorder” might have been accurate twenty or thirty years ago, but the reality of what the older generation is capable of is rapidly changing. My parents (mid 60s) are all fully IT literate, use smartphones, buy e-tickets (on the rare occasions they use the railway) and don’t carry cash. My late grandfather, as mentioned above, could use an iPad and (just about) mastered online banking.

So, in 2022, who are this mythical generation of old people people who can’t understand technology? As for cheques, they really are stone age. I’m in my mid-late 30s and I’ve never written a cheque in my life.

Not sure of the relevance of that. The first iPhone didn't even allow MMS using official apps, never mind m-tickets. The iPhone was Apple's attempt to produce a touch screen competitor to the Blackberry, that was effectively a PDA and phone merged in to one.

The development of apps was partly a response to Steve Job's controversial decision to not allow Adobe Flash Player to be installed on the iPhone. Even in 2022 there's companies producing apps because they think it's trendy, not because they are useful tools for customers. I downloaded a travel app the other day and after looking at it, I immediately deleted it. It worked by extracting information from other websites and displaying it in the app, sometimes cutting it off. I can use Google to do everything the app offered.

The relevance is that smartphone technology is hardly ground breaking “hi tech” in 2022. It’s now a decade and a half old.

 

[bramling]

With some banks you can configure the daily cash withdrawal limit which mitigates this to being the same as the effect of your wallet containing cash being stolen. Few people now need to withdraw large sums of cash; the vast majority of people now use cash only for small "petty" items. The default daily limit is typically £250-£300 on most accounts, but £50 would probably be more than plenty for most people these days.

It's also possible that if a crime number is provided some banks may refund this out of goodwill, though it's one of the odd cases where they don't actually have to.

The trouble with that is when there’s an impulse purchase. I got caught out by that when we went to the GCR a few years ago and it happened to be the day of the Quorn railwayana fayre, and there was a rather nice enamel sign which I fancied. Didn’t have cheque book with me, and obviously couldn’t pay the seller by card. Fortunately between us we were able to withdraw enough cash. It wasn’t a massive sum either, maybe £300 if I remember. Naturally couldn’t get into a branch as it was a weekend.