EMR Class 360's

[MML]

Would the reliability issue maybe come from a possible lack of maintenance on Greater Anglia? The units were in quite a state when they moved over (and still are!)

I suspect so but that's all the more infuriating given both Greater Anglia and EMR are both owned by Abellio.

EMR have had the units for near enough 2 years, yet their priority is rebranding the exterior of a few.
Any reasonable operator would prioritise a heavy overhaul preferably undertaken by Siemens. Instead it appears these clapped out units continually fail and minimal maintenance is underway at Bedford Cauldwell. EMR were using the excuse of COVID but even that won't wash now.

 

[QSK19]

Such a sorry state of affairs - a huge shame that they didn’t/couldn’t get the Class 379s…

 

[F Great Eastern]

Such a sorry state of affairs - a huge shame that they didn’t/couldn’t get the Class 379s…

The 360s have been historically more reliable though. They were the most reliable train of their generation in 2019 winning the Golden Spanners before falling off a cliff reliability wise after being really unloved in 2020 during a period where most GA stock saw a considerable drop off.

 

[samuelmorris]

It's arguably been long enough now that any issues resulting from the condition of the units brought in from GA, if they weren't bad enough to have a unit withdrawn outright, ought to have been rectified. There isn't really much of an excuse any more, never mind as you say they are two TOCs from the same parent company. It presumably just isn't considered a priority to deliver a number of units close to what was anticipated. One might perhaps suggest that the maintenance regime of the units at EMR is even more lax than latter-day GA... at least for this part of the fleet.

 

[patrick.hearn3]

EMR were using the excuse of COVID but even that won't wash now.

I know nothing of EMR's sickness position but there's a lot of COVID-19 absence. 200,000 children absent, for example. Anecdotally, I know many with it.

 

[bramling]

I suspect so but that's all the more infuriating given both Greater Anglia and EMR are both owned by Abellio.

EMR have had the units for near enough 2 years, yet their priority is rebranding the exterior of a few.
Any reasonable operator would prioritise a heavy overhaul preferably undertaken by Siemens. Instead it appears these clapped out units continually fail and minimal maintenance is underway at Bedford Cauldwell. EMR were using the excuse of COVID but even that won't wash now.

One does wonder if there’s simply too much outstabling. The way things are organised means units barely see Cauldwell, let alone Northampton.

They have made use of a legacy depot which was designed for a completely different purpose, and it doesn’t really fit a service where nothing starts or finishes at Bedford.

Then you also have the issue that units aren’t going to depot during the midday, so another maintenance opportunity unavailable (the full 12-car service may actually help, providing units can see Cauldwell between the peaks, rather than just going to Cricklewood).

In a joined-up world one might run a couple of early morning Thameslink services out of Cauldwell and into St Pancras High Level with 360 pairs on them, and something similar in reverse in the evening. This would allow a few more units to see the depot each day, without incurring massive ECS mileage.

The other problem is with it being a simple end-to-end service, there’s little opportunity to swap units onto depot paths where required, though as things stand there’s barely any depot paths anyway. So any unit which needs to see a depot is a headache deciding what to do with it, and that is bound to introduce unreliability - especially if with current crew availability there aren’t spare drivers sitting around ready to move units ECS to/from depot.

In short, they seem to have designed a setup which works fine on paper, but which isn’t coping with the realities of a railway. I’m not sure the 360s themselves are the whole problem.

Ideally a depot at Cricklewood would have been a solution, but there may well not be the land available there now. The old EMU depot has recently been demolished I believe. The Kettering site is likewise rather cramped.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wire the Marston Vale, remove a diesel island and make getting them to Northampton easy!

(yes, I know, I can dream)

 

[507020]

Wire the Marston Vale, remove a diesel island and make getting them to Northampton easy!

(yes, I know, I can dream)

But that’s a stupid idea when you would have to wire the whole of East-West Rail and they can just easily reopen the lines from Wellingborough and Market Harborough directly to Northampton and have them electrified from the start, or even better build a completely new line from Corby and Kettering straight into Northampton depot.

The actual distance from Kettering or Wellingborough to Northampton makes it absolutely outrageous that the 360s aren’t able to travel to a Siemens depot without going via Primrose Hill, with their reliability and passengers using the CONNECT service suffering as a result.

 

[MML]

And you would have thought EMR would have come to some arrangement with Thameslink to use the wash at Cricklewood when EMR operate ECS moves to and from St Pancras.
The exterior of some units is caked in dirt and obviously haven't been washed for weeks.

 

[Doctor Fegg]

But that’s a stupid idea when you would have to wire the whole of East-West Rail and they can just easily reopen the lines from Wellingborough and Market Harborough directly to Northampton and have them electrified from the start, or even better build a completely new line from Corby and Kettering straight into Northampton depot.

*rubs eyes*

What did I just read?

 

[Merle Haggard]

It's not just short forms...

Take last Thursday, 17th March
07.49 St Pancras Corby ran late from Kettering.
09.10 Corby - St Pancras cancelled.
08.18 St Pancras - Corby terminated short at Kettering - brake problems.
09.40 Corby - St Pancras started Kettering, 4 cars
So hour and a half gap for Corby.

16.17 St Pancras - Corby had lost 50 minutes by Luton Airport, where the towel was thrown in - doors problem
16.47 St Pancras - Corby terminated short at Kettering.

So no service in the evenoing peak to Corby for an hour an a half, Wellingborough heavy delays in the evening peak.


The next day, 'doors problem' caused an hours gap in the up peak service at Wellingborough.

Travelling occasionally off-peak North from Wellingborough the impression of E.M.R. that's easy to form is they just don't care.
There are usually about 4 or 5 people waiting for the down service. When it arrives, the conductor guard has banter with the platform despatcher before returning to the leading cab of the rear unit. The passengers all join the front set, despite the walk this means at Kettering. Clue; Wellingborough, Kettering and Corby are open stations. But they needn't worry; the 'conductor' never checks tickets in the rear set, either.

 

[43066]

And you would have thought EMR would have come to some arrangement with Thameslink to use the wash at Cricklewood when EMR operate ECS moves to and from St Pancras.
The exterior of some units is caked in dirt and obviously haven't been washed for weeks.

Erm, which wash at Cricklewood would that be?

 

[306024]

One does wonder if there’s simply too much outstabling. The way things are organised means units barely see Cauldwell, let alone Northampton.

They have made use of a legacy depot which was designed for a completely different purpose, and it doesn’t really fit a service where nothing starts or finishes at Bedford.

Then you also have the issue that units aren’t going to depot during the midday, so another maintenance opportunity unavailable (the full 12-car service may actually help, providing units can see Cauldwell between the peaks, rather than just going to Cricklewood).

In a joined-up world one might run a couple of early morning Thameslink services out of Cauldwell and into St Pancras High Level with 360 pairs on them, and something similar in reverse in the evening. This would allow a few more units to see the depot each day, without incurring massive ECS mileage.

The other problem is with it being a simple end-to-end service, there’s little opportunity to swap units onto depot paths where required, though as things stand there’s barely any depot paths anyway. So any unit which needs to see a depot is a headache deciding what to do with it, and that is bound to introduce unreliability - especially if with current crew availability there aren’t spare drivers sitting around ready to move units ECS to/from depot.

In short, they seem to have designed a setup which works fine on paper, but which isn’t coping with the realities of a railway. I’m not sure the 360s themselves are the whole problem.

Ideally a depot at Cricklewood would have been a solution, but there may well not be the land available there now. The old EMU depot has recently been demolished I believe. The Kettering site is likewise rather cramped.

When the 360s were on the Great Eastern the diagram commitment was 20 units in service Mon-Fri from a fleet of 21. Ambitious but Siemens were comfortable with that.

The fleet were diagrammed so there were six units at Ilford off peak and three at night. There were links to Ilford from both Colchester and Clacton, with an Ilford to Ilford diagram in case any minor works weren't completed. This gave sufficient flexibility to get units in for maintenance easily enough.

Occasionally in latter years that was reduced to 18/21 when a series of modifications were required

 

[A0]

The actual distance from Kettering or Wellingborough to Northampton makes it absolutely outrageous that the 360s aren’t able to travel to a Siemens depot without going via Primrose Hill, with their reliability and passengers using the CONNECT service suffering as a result.

Could they get to Hornsey - which is also a Siemens depot, without going via Primrose Hill ?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Mar 2022 ==

Short forming has been going on for days. 4-car units are completely unacceptable for this service with increasing customer numbers, the units often depart full and standing.
EMR have 21 units. They only need 12 to be serviceable to provide 8 car formations. EMR promised 12 car in the peaks. They can't even prioritise longer units on the peak flow, with an 8 car travelling contra peak and a 4 car unit swamped on a peak flow. Why the units are so appallingly unreliable and EMR are so incompetent - heaven only knows !

I bet they're only "full and standing" to Luton though.

Worth remembering it used to be 5 car Meridians doing these services which then ran onto Leicester and Nottingham.

If people heading to Luton or Bedford are *that* bothered about standing they need only to head downstairs at St P where a more frequent 12 car 700 with far more space will turn up.

 

[QSK19]

The exterior of some units is caked in dirt and obviously haven't been washed for weeks.

Doesn’t bode well given all the effort put into painting the exterior at Eastleigh - might as well have just applied vinyl on the exterior if EMR aren’t bothered about washing them.

 

[swt_passenger]

One does wonder if there’s simply too much outstabling. The way things are organised means units barely see Cauldwell, let alone Northampton.

And yet outstabling and berthing all over the place has worked fine for SWT and now SWR? Their Desiros are all “based” at Northam depot, but it can only deal with about 10 units at a time out of 172 in total.

 

[westcoaster]

Erm, which wash at Cricklewood would that be?

The one next to the signal box.

 

[edwin_m]

Could they get to Hornsey - which is also a Siemens depot, without going via Primrose Hill ?

From the MML the only route under their own power would be to reverse in the low-level platforms at St Pancras, or continue through there to reverse further south and return the same way. Can't see that being popular with Thameslink.

 

[westcoaster]

Not sure when this was posted, but has appeared at Wellingborough.

 

[Hairy Bear]

They have been up over 2 weeks now. One should have been posted each week since last may !

 

[Starmill]

It looks like there's only one diagram formed of four coaches instead of eight this afternoon, with no cancellations reported.

 

[bramling]

And yet outstabling and berthing all over the place has worked fine for SWT and now SWR? Their Desiros are all “based” at Northam depot, but it can only deal with about 10 units at a time out of 172 in total.

I still don’t think the setup compares, for two reasons.

Firstly, SWT/SWR still have minor depots in a number of locations - Bournemouth, Fratton, Strawberry Hill, Farnham. All these locations are conveniently placed to receive stock overnight, or in some cases between the peaks.

But perhaps more significantly, they have more opportunities to get stock back to depot if required. Numerous opportunities to do set swaps, Waterloo for a start, and other locations, where it can be done with little or no disruption. EMR simply doesn’t have this with their Connect service, any kind of changeover is going to be quite demanding in terms of using driver resource to carry it out, and is probably going to have at least some level of passenger-facing impact, be it a round trip missed, or perhaps more. Then on top of that there’s the issue that the major depot isn’t even on the line of route and can’t be conveniently reached from it.

Clearly something is going wrong, and it’s hard to blame it entirely on the 360s as similar trains operate reliably elsewhere, and indeed this fleet has done earlier in its life. Likewise EMR should now have had long enough to get on top of any issues inherited from Greater Anglia. The service has also been going long enough that crews should now be reasonably familiar, so can’t really attribute it to that either. This doesn’t leave much.

 

[Helvellyn]

Clue; Wellingborough, Kettering and Corby are open stations. But they needn't worry; the 'conductor' never checks tickets in the rear set, either.

Not for much longer in the case of Wellingborough and Kettering.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Not for much longer in the case of Wellingborough and Kettering.

Indeed. And Corby.

At Welingborough the (admittedly small) station 'booking hall' is now almost completely occupied by barriers. Lucky it isn't busy.

Inconsistently, at Wellingborough, the waiting room had two entrances from the booking hall which are each side of the new barriers. The one on the public side was closed so that access to it is for passengers who have passed through the barrier. With a similar choice at Kettering, the entrance chosen was the public side. A downside to using Kettering waiting room (still restricted to 6 - only one person allowed on two 3 seat benches back to back) is that there is no p.a. in there, meaning one might miss ones train if too engrossed in reading

Not sure when this was posted, but has appeared at Wellingborough.

There's been one like that up at Kettering for weeks. Happily saying 'this week' means they don't have to change it.

 

[MML]

There is a poster at St Pancras too. It might be acceptable to apologise if there was a notable week of below average performance and things were being rectified. But the Connect services have been poor for months and there appears little effort to remedy the situation. Yet more talk and promises, matched by failure to deliver.

If heavy maintenance is required then surely a weekly loco hauled drag to Northampton via Bletchley could be arranged or more regular ECS moves to Cauldwell rather than stabling untouched at Cricklewood.

 

[Halish Railway]

I know that this has probably covered before but why is the refurbishment is taking so long? Is it really that difficult and time consuming to give these trains new seats, a cosmetic makeover and a deep clean?

Just compare this job with other Desiro refurbishments, OK this one is much more far reaching thanks to the new seats but the quite significant cosmetic changes done to the LNWR & TPE Desiros we’re fairly quick.

Even if this service was very punctual with very few short-formed trains it would still be a subpar offering thanks to the state that these trains are in and the unsuitable interior.

 

[WesternLancer]

I know that this has probably covered before but why is the refurbishment is taking so long? Is it really that difficult and time consuming to give these trains new seats, a cosmetic makeover and a deep clean?

Just compare this job with other Desiro refurbishments, OK this one is much more far reaching thanks to the new seats but the quite significant cosmetic changes done to the LNWR & TPE Desiros we’re fairly quick.

Even if this service was very punctual with very few short-formed trains it would still be a subpar offering thanks to the state that these trains are in and the unsuitable interior.

It sadly seems just typical of EMR. Not a single one of the regional fleet had any interior renovations done on them since they took on the franchise, with many of them in poor condition, and the Inter City fleet very tatty inside whilst we wait for new stock - and even though that fleet will be required elsewhere when replaced, it seems beyond the wit of DfT to require work on the interiors of those trains to commence now despite it being much needed.

It's an extremely poor passenger travelling environment offer from EMR.

It seems that the combo of Abellio and the DfT have really allowed things to get to a poor state of affairs in this regard.

 

[swt_passenger]

I know that this has probably covered before but why is the refurbishment is taking so long? Is it really that difficult and time consuming to give these trains new seats, a cosmetic makeover and a deep clean?

Has it ever started? Clearly the exterior painting is on a separate timetable, and the tender for the interiors wasn’t issued for ages.

 

[baz962]

It's not just short forms...

Take last Thursday, 17th March
07.49 St Pancras Corby ran late from Kettering.
09.10 Corby - St Pancras cancelled.
08.18 St Pancras - Corby terminated short at Kettering - brake problems.
09.40 Corby - St Pancras started Kettering, 4 cars
So hour and a half gap for Corby.

16.17 St Pancras - Corby had lost 50 minutes by Luton Airport, where the towel was thrown in - doors problem
16.47 St Pancras - Corby terminated short at Kettering.

So no service in the evenoing peak to Corby for an hour an a half, Wellingborough heavy delays in the evening peak.


The next day, 'doors problem' caused an hours gap in the up peak service at Wellingborough.

Travelling occasionally off-peak North from Wellingborough the impression of E.M.R. that's easy to form is they just don't care.
There are usually about 4 or 5 people waiting for the down service. When it arrives, the conductor guard has banter with the platform despatcher before returning to the leading cab of the rear unit. The passengers all join the front set, despite the walk this means at Kettering. Clue; Wellingborough, Kettering and Corby are open stations. But they needn't worry; the 'conductor' never checks tickets in the rear set, either.

Definitely asked me for a ticket the other day.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Definitely asked me for a ticket the other day.

May I ask at what point in the journey?