Heaton Derailment 22/03/22

[plugwash]

Depending which published figure you believe ( they vary ) a Chinook can lift between 10-12 tonnes.

According to wikipedia the largest helicopter in the world, the mil-mi 26 has a payload capacity of 20 tonnes. It has exceptionally lifted 25 tonnes before but was then sent back to the factory for inspection before it was used again.

According to https://www.railengineer.co.uk/wp-c.../Table-1-Hitachi-800-802-orders-V3-Avenir.pdf a class 802 has a tare mass of 243 tonnes, if we assume all the cars weigh the same that works out to 43 tonnes per car.

The numbers just don't seem to work for lifting out a rail car by helicopter unless significant lightening work is done first.

 

[Pinus contorta]

According to wikipedia the largest helicopter in the world, the mil-mi 26 has a payload capacity of 20 tonnes. It has exceptionally lifted 25 tonnes before but was then sent back to the factory for inspection before it was used again.

According to https://www.railengineer.co.uk/wp-c.../Table-1-Hitachi-800-802-orders-V3-Avenir.pdf a class 802 has a tare mass of 243 tonnes, if we assume all the cars weigh the same that works out to 43 tonnes per car.

The numbers just don't seem to work for lifting out a rail car by helicopter unless significant lightening work is done first.

Who's going to sign the risk assessment for having a go at lifting that then?

 

[eman_resu]

Is it just me, or does the 800 class seem to be involved in more mishaps than the HST? Or are they just widely reported than in earlier times?

 

[Spartacus]

Is it just me, or does the 800 class seem to be involved in more mishaps than the HST? Or are they just widely reported than in earlier times?

Well I think there's roughly twice as many 80X sets now than there ever were HSTs, and they're used more intensively, but, yeah, I think things get pounced upon and dwelled on more now, and of course it's fresh in the memory. I don't think something like this would have got much of a mention even in the railway press of the day, with fatal rail accidents being sadly regular events. Largely forgotten now are the brake problems, exhaust faults with coolant loss, de-rated engines and complaints from guards leading to the creation of the TGSs that impacted the HSTs.

 

[LowLevel]

Is it just me, or does the 800 class seem to be involved in more mishaps than the HST? Or are they just widely reported than in earlier times?

HSTs ended up on their side more than once at Neville Hill. Just perception.

 

[sprinterguy]

HSTs ended up on their side more than once at Neville Hill. Just perception.

Indeed - Sideswipes and shunting collisions on depots involving HSTs weren't uncommon during the eighties. Not to mention that the East Coast HST sets in particular were involved in two fairly dramatic derailments in passenger service within around five years of them entering traffic - Northallerton in 1979 and Tyne Yard in 1984.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

The low speed shunt of a 800 into a HST it is noteworthy the 800 came off worse…

 

[ainsworth74]

The low speed shunt of a 800 into a HST it is noteworthy the 800 came off worse…

Only one of them is still in service however...

 

[dk1]

Only one of them is still in service however...

The best one

 

[DanNCL]

The low speed shunt of a 800 into a HST it is noteworthy the 800 came off worse…

Only one of them is still in service however...

It may well be that the 800 is the only one still in service today, but the HST (apart from 43300) was back in service a lot sooner than 800109 was!

 

[800001]

Path now in for cranes to move in the morning.

6D31 - 0437 Doncaster Decoy - Heaton

Realtime Trains | 638J 0437 Doncaster Up Decoy to Heaton T&R.S.M.D. | 25/03/2022

Real-time train running information for 638J 0437 departure from Doncaster Up Decoy to Heaton T&R.S.M.D. on 25/03/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[DanNCL]

I’ve just been past the site of the accident. The damaged carriage is now upright, though one end remains suspended in the air by a crane. The carriage has come out remarkably unscathed considering it’s been resting on its side for three days!

There‘s some minor disruption on the adjacent metro line which Nexus have blamed on the recovery of the 802.

 

[800001]

I’ve just been past the site of the accident. The damaged carriage is now upright, though one end remains suspended in the air by a crane. The carriage has come out remarkably unscathed considering it’s been resting on its side for three days!

There‘s some minor disruption on the adjacent metro line which Nexus have blamed on the recovery of the 802.

Some good pictures then Dan!

 

[swt_passenger]

That rather puts to bed the theory that “they’ll have to be cut up on site because they’ll never get rail cranes anywhere near because of OHLE”.

 

[millemille]

Temporary removal of the overhead wires in the yard, couple of Kirow's to lift the vehicle back upright, stick it on wheel skates and Robert's your brother's uncle.

Dangerous Dave would have that out before you knew it...

I’ve just been past the site of the accident. The damaged carriage is now upright, though one end remains suspended in the air by a crane. The carriage has come out remarkably unscathed considering it’s been resting on its side for three days!

There‘s some minor disruption on the adjacent metro line which Nexus have blamed on the recovery of the 802.

Is it bad form to quote oneself?

 

[swt_passenger]

Is it bad form to quote oneself?

Not if you were right all along…

 

[GB]

That rather puts to bed the theory that “they’ll have to be cut up on site because they’ll never get rail cranes anywhere near because of OHLE”.

where has that theory and quote come from because it’s not from here. No one said it couldn’t be recovered, no one said it wouldn’t be recovered. What was said was that recovery would be expensive and that cutting it up was an option discussed at one stage.

 

[swt_passenger]

where has that theory and quote come from because it’s not from here. No one said it couldn’t be recovered, no one said it wouldn’t be recovered. What was said was that recovery would be expensive and that cutting it up was an option discussed at one stage.

It’s a composite of views expressed earlier, eg #64 and #66?

 

[greyman42]

A TPE set derailed. There were no movements allowed out of the depot but trains are now being allowed to leave via the North end.

I am not familiar with the layout at Heaton, but why could everything not leave via the north end in the first place?

 

[800001]

I am not familiar with the layout at Heaton, but why could everything not leave via the north end in the first place?

The shunting and movements team (based at Heaton) were removed from duty, as would be normal when an incident occurs.
Until morning team started at 6am, nothing could move on the depot.

 

[skyhigh]

I am not familiar with the layout at Heaton, but why could everything not leave via the north end in the first place?

Exactly as @800001 says.

 

[CBlue]

The low speed shunt of a 800 into a HST it is noteworthy the 800 came off worse…

Not quite the whole story.

But HST, best thing ever, timeless, legendary, Mk3's, I hear you say.....sorry to burst the bubble.

It was pointed out repeatedly at the time that the lack of crumple zones in an HST cab compared to a 800 means that the 800 -appears- to have suffered more damage, all in the name of protecting the driver.

This is like those comments you read on occasion complaining about how modern cars appear to be "worse off" in crashes despite the survivability of the occupants being far higher than say, a HST-era car like a Ford Cortina - which likely would look better after a low speed shunt.

However I know which I'd rather be driving at speed in a crash, and it isn't the HST or Cortina both of which by modern standards don't held up well in front end collisons. A head on crash at 70mph in a Cortina would have it disintegrate around you, and all there is in the HST is a bit of fibreglass making up the cab.

 

[LAX54]

Asif that's going to happen to a brand new train.

It was an option, as recovery was deemed too expensive and seemed in a location that a crane , or cranes could not access.

 

[DanNCL]

Some good pictures then Dan!

Thank you!

That rather puts to bed the theory that “they’ll have to be cut up on site because they’ll never get rail cranes anywhere near because of OHLE”.

where has that theory and quote come from because it’s not from here. No one said it couldn’t be recovered, no one said it wouldn’t be recovered. What was said was that recovery would be expensive and that cutting it up was an option discussed at one stage.

Such theories I think came from the assumption that cranes would have to arrive by road, which would have been virtually impossible at that location without dismantling a large chunk of the depot throat. Of course the use of rail cranes has meant that the dismantling required has been limited to a few short sections of OHLE.

It’s easy to forget that there’s such a thing as a rail crane these days, with them so rarely being seen!

The shunting and movements team (based at Heaton) were removed from duty, as would be normal when an incident occurs.
Until morning team started at 6am, nothing could move on the depot.

Just to add to this - the signal cabin at Heaton is quite a walk from the main depot building which is where the morning team will have signed on. Movements of course weren’t able to resume until the signal cabin was manned. The first arrival at Newcastle from Heaton was at 07:00.

 

[Trisha]

The shunting and movements team (based at Heaton) were removed from duty, as would be normal when an incident occurs.
Until morning team started at 6am, nothing could move on the depot.

Not fully correct, the staff involved which would be the MDD and the Panel Operator also any other persons who might have been involved in the movement. The rest of the Movements team would be still allowed to continue with their duties.

 

[800001]

Thank you!



Such theories I think came from the assumption that cranes would have to arrive by road, which would have been virtually impossible at that location without dismantling a large chunk of the depot throat. Of course the use of rail cranes has meant that the dismantling required has been limited to a few short sections of OHLE.

It’s easy to forget that there’s such a thing as a rail crane these days, with them so rarely being seen!


Just to add to this - the signal cabin at Heaton is quite a walk from the main depot building which is where the morning team will have signed on. Movements of course weren’t able to resume until the signal cabin was manned. The first arrival at Newcastle from Heaton was at 07:00.

Just to add about the first arrival at Newcastle from Heaton, they were taking upwards of 45 minutes to come off shed, as they had to go on to the apron road at very north of depot next to mainline, and then move slowly back through yard, this was also done on the GU engine as power was off.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Mar 2022 ==

Not fully correct, the staff involved which would be the MDD and the Panel Operator also any other persons who might have been involved in the movement. The rest of the Movements team would be still allowed to continue with their duties.

But with out the panel operator involved nothing was able to move.
So who ever was left on duty was unable to be in a position to assist trains to depart.
So, as I said, until the mornings team came on nothing moved on depot.

 

[westcoaster]

And add to that the panel may have been quarantined until checked over/downloaded and points and buttons documented.

 

[Efini92]

Not quite the whole story.

But HST, best thing ever, timeless, legendary, Mk3's, I hear you say.....sorry to burst the bubble.

It was pointed out repeatedly at the time that the lack of crumple zones in an HST cab compared to a 800 means that the 800 -appears- to have suffered more damage, all in the name of protecting the driver.

This is like those comments you read on occasion complaining about how modern cars appear to be "worse off" in crashes despite the survivability of the occupants being far higher than say, a HST-era car like a Ford Cortina - which likely would look better after a low speed shunt.

However I know which I'd rather be driving at speed in a crash, and it isn't the HST or Cortina both of which by modern standards don't held up well in front end collisons. A head on crash at 70mph in a Cortina would have it disintegrate around you, and all there is in the HST is a bit of fibreglass making up the cab.

You only have to look at the remains of the power car from the Stonehaven accident to know which one you’d rather be in.
I get the nostalgia of HST’s but they’ve had their time.

 

[800001]

Rear carriage now reportedly on wheel skates, wonder where that will get moved to?
Aycliffe a possibility? Or is there space for it to be taken out by road from Tyne Yard?

 

[AndrewE]

You only have to look at the remains of the power car from the Stonehaven accident to know which one you’d rather be in.
I get the nostalgia of HST’s but they’ve had their time.

Anyone else remember the depot prang when an HST power car wrecked a class 47 cab?
Granted, the cl 47 could be bashed back out into shape - or completely rebuilt - but ISTR the glass-fibre (?) HST was relatively undamaged.
A