• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

There are too many preserved railways in the UK: what can be done to make them more viable?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Runningaround

Member
Joined
24 Mar 2022
Messages
799
If there really are too many preserved railways, will there not be a process of natural selection ? ie those able to attract enough people, both to volunteer and to travel on their trains, will survive; Those that can't, won't.
And those travelling to escape the city to walk the mountains and visit a beach have possibly been commuting on trains all week so the last thing they'll want to do is spend the weekend on a train.
The only one I see with a decent future is connecting the Cambrian Heritage from Oswestry with Gobowen station as i'm not sure you can even get a bus on Sundays to do that.
 
Last edited:
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Baxenden Bank

Established Member
Joined
23 Oct 2013
Messages
4,037
If there really are too many preserved railways, will there not be a process of natural selection ? ie those able to attract enough people, both to volunteer and to travel on their trains, will survive; Those that can't, won't.
Is precisely what will, and is, happening. Hence a small number going into 'administration' of some kind - Llangollen being one. The problem with many is that they linger rather than disappear entirely, occasionally bursting back into the public eye when a potential funding opportunity presents itself. Just as proposals to re-open stations/whole railways as part of the big railway do. A handful of enthusiastic individuals pottering around, doing a bit of restoration in a yard somewhere, dreaming of the pre-Beeching or even pre-grouping sunlit uplands when every railway ran at a massive profit. If only the lottery/council/martian invaders would fund their project. Alas many didn't run at a profit even in the railway heyday. Lots of branches made a loss from day one - even on running costs never mind a return on capital construction costs.

As an aside, does anyone have a list of disappeared preserved/private railways? Carnforth as Steamtown, Dinting, Lochty for a start.
 

Flying Phil

Established Member
Joined
18 Apr 2016
Messages
1,940
This is an interesting topic but one aspect not considered is that - given the demographic of the majority of volunteers/supporters of heritage railways, there is an argument that they should be supported by the National Health Service as they keep a significant number of the population active and sociable which benefits their health and well-being.....reducing their cost to the NHS!
Also, if the viability of the present number of lines is so poor, why are there more extensions being undertaken by several railways in different parts of the country? Obviously many lines are being supported by some wealthy people - or lots of "not so wealthy" people, but that is surely their choice.
 

A0wen

On Moderation
Joined
19 Jan 2008
Messages
7,491
Is precisely what will, and is, happening. Hence a small number going into 'administration' of some kind - Llangollen being one. The problem with many is that they linger rather than disappear entirely, occasionally bursting back into the public eye when a potential funding opportunity presents itself. Just as proposals to re-open stations/whole railways as part of the big railway do. A handful of enthusiastic individuals pottering around, doing a bit of restoration in a yard somewhere, dreaming of the pre-Beeching or even pre-grouping sunlit uplands when every railway ran at a massive profit. If only the lottery/council/martian invaders would fund their project. Alas many didn't run at a profit even in the railway heyday. Lots of branches made a loss from day one - even on running costs never mind a return on capital construction costs.

As an aside, does anyone have a list of disappeared preserved/private railways? Carnforth as Steamtown, Dinting, Lochty for a start.

You can add:

Steamport Southport.
South Yorkshire Railway Meadowhall
Snibston
Transperience Bradford
Swansea Vale Railway

And if you're being really ambitious the South Midland Railway which was trying to resurrect the Dunstable branch.

A few more narrow gauge ones as well - listed here> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_heritage_and_private_railways
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
17,689
Location
Another planet...
You can add:

Steamport Southport.
South Yorkshire Railway Meadowhall
Snibston
Transperience Bradford
Swansea Vale Railway

And if you're being really ambitious the South Midland Railway which was trying to resurrect the Dunstable branch.

A few more narrow gauge ones as well - listed here> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_British_heritage_and_private_railways
It's a stretch to call some of those "preserved railways": Transperience at Low Moor was basically a museum, presumably inspired by the nearby Eureka in Halifax as much of the indoor space was very "child-centric". You did have the chance to ride a few old buses/trolleybuses/trams, but not on a revived or preserved alignment.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
98,002
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Steamport was just a museum, one I enjoyed a number of times as a kid. I think it had a short length of track but rarely operating. It closed because a developer offered them a fairly huge sum of money for the land for an out of town retail park, if I recall.
 

A0wen

On Moderation
Joined
19 Jan 2008
Messages
7,491
Steamport was just a museum, one I enjoyed a number of times as a kid. I think it had a short length of track but rarely operating. It closed because a developer offered them a fairly huge sum of money for the land for an out of town retail park, if I recall.

As was Dinting - mentioned upthread.
 

Calthrop

Established Member
Joined
6 Dec 2015
Messages
3,315
Bletchleyite said: "One thing that might be nice would be to have 'railbikes' on at least one of them, preferably a scenic one."

I never understand the French preoccupation with velorails. They're a poor railway experience, a poor cycling experience, and don't really make any contribution to heritage - effectively they're a glorified fairground ride that takes up a whole bunch of trackbed that could be used for something better. I take your point on "at least one of them", but ideally make that "just one and no more" ;)
Velo rails have nothing to do with preservation or heritage they are merely a way to make a (small amount of money) out of an abandoned railway line before the track becomes unfit even for use as a velo rail. They are reasonably popular and fun to use, but should in no way be confused with preservation.

I have always loathed the whole "velorail" idea -- it having struck me as in its context, the very worst of all possible worlds; and something with which I would never engage, even if paid to. Admittedly, I am extremely hard to please re anything on the "railway-post-commercial-use" scene. @simonw: your post here puts this thing into perspective for me -- had not previously occurred to me thus.
 
Last edited:

Baxenden Bank

Established Member
Joined
23 Oct 2013
Messages
4,037
Bletchleyite said: "One thing that might be nice would be to have 'railbikes' on at least one of them, preferably a scenic one."




I have always loathed the whole "velorail" idea -- it having struck me as in its context, the very worst of all possible worlds; and something with which I would never engage, even if paid to. Admittedly, I am extremely hard to please re anything on the "railway-post-commercial-use" scene. @simonw: your post here puts this thing into perspective for me -- had not previously occurred to me thus.
These people are operating commercially. One step up from a 'velorail'. On the line in Ecuador between Ibarra and San Lorenzo. They offer jungle wildlife trips!
alto tambo home made fleet.jpgalto tambo home made car jack turning.jpg
 

Fisherman80

Member
Joined
29 Apr 2018
Messages
217
I wonder if a lack of Interchange between the national rail network and some preserved railways has any influence on whether visitors choose to visit certain preserved railways.

Take the Keighley and Worth Valley Railway. Its platforms are adjacent to the national rail platforms which is a major plus point,and also Keighley is well served with services to Leeds,Bradford,Lancaster and Carlisle.

Then take the Embsay and Bolton Abbey railway. First a train to Skipton,then a 5 to 10 minute walk to the bus station to catch an hourly minibus service to Embsay.

I'm speaking as someone who does not have a car so a preserved railway with direct or a very short walk to a national rail station is a major plus point in my opinion and has a direct influence on whether I visit a preserved railway or not.
 

Dai Corner

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2015
Messages
6,359
I wonder if a lack of Interchange between the national rail network and some preserved railways has any influence on whether visitors choose to visit certain preserved railways.

Take the Keighley and Worth Valley Railway. Its platforms are adjacent to the national rail platforms which is a major plus point,and also Keighley is well served with services to Leeds,Bradford,Lancaster and Carlisle.

Then take the Embsay and Bolton Abbey railway. First a train to Skipton,then a 5 to 10 minute walk to the bus station to catch an hourly minibus service to Embsay.

I'm speaking as someone who does not have a car so a preserved railway with direct or a very short walk to a national rail station is a major plus point in my opinion and has a direct influence on whether I visit a preserved railway or not.
I think you're very much in the minority. Whenever I visit the Dean Forest Railway , for example, the vast majority of passengers drive to and board at Parkend, despite Lydney Town being convenient for buses and Lydney Junction for the national rail station.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,945
Location
Yorkshire
I wonder if a lack of Interchange between the national rail network and some preserved railways has any influence on whether visitors choose to visit certain preserved railways.
I think so. Albeit not as much as perhaps should be the case.
Then take the Embsay and Bolton Abbey railway. First a train to Skipton,then a 5 to 10 minute walk to the bus station to catch an hourly minibus service to Embsay.
It's (theoretically) less than 40 miles from me, but I've never done it. Journey time by public transport is 2 hours 10 minutes if the connections work out.
I'm speaking as someone who does not have a car so a preserved railway with direct or a very short walk to a national rail station is a major plus point in my opinion and has a direct influence on whether I visit a preserved railway or not.
Same here.
 

Western Sunset

Established Member
Joined
23 Dec 2014
Messages
2,511
Location
Wimborne, Dorset
Not sure about there being too many heritage railways, but I do think there is too much junk lying around at many sites. Maybe better to preserve (and really look after) a more limited range of locos/stock than try to save everything. Though I suppose one person's "junk" is another's prized project for a rainy day...
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
98,002
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Not sure about there being too many heritage railways, but I do think there is too much junk lying around at many sites. Maybe better to preserve (and really look after) a more limited range of locos/stock than try to save everything. Though I suppose one person's "junk" is another's prized project for a rainy day...

The "junk" is mostly on spare lines, and doesn't really cause an operational issue being there. Generally preservation groups own it, so it doesn't really cause the railway any cost if it's just sat there.
 

D6130

Established Member
Joined
12 Jan 2021
Messages
5,804
Location
West Yorkshire/Tuscany
The "junk" is mostly on spare lines, and doesn't really cause an operational issue being there. Generally preservation groups own it, so it doesn't really cause the railway any cost if it's just sat there.
Correct....but it doesn't exactly endear the railway concerned to the owners of nearby properties!
 

Dai Corner

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2015
Messages
6,359
The "junk" is mostly on spare lines, and doesn't really cause an operational issue being there. Generally preservation groups own it, so it doesn't really cause the railway any cost if it's just sat there.
Though it may be of interest to enthusiasts, especially if rare, it doesn't give a great impression to the general visitor.
 

Western Sunset

Established Member
Joined
23 Dec 2014
Messages
2,511
Location
Wimborne, Dorset
Re-junk, I was thinking more about the "look" of the railway; both for those visiting (who maybe don't want to visit what appears a scrapyard), and for those living nearby.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
98,002
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Correct....but it doesn't exactly endear the railway concerned to the owners of nearby properties!

Probably not a massive concern. There was almost certainly a railway there when they bought their house.

Though it may be of interest to enthusiasts, especially if rare, it doesn't give a great impression to the general visitor.

I'm not sure it'd actually bother them that much provided the stock they are in is in good condition.
 

A0wen

On Moderation
Joined
19 Jan 2008
Messages
7,491
I wonder if a lack of Interchange between the national rail network and some preserved railways has any influence on whether visitors choose to visit certain preserved railways.

This was discussed not so long ago - and I think the general consensus was no - it came up in the context of the Swanage Railway and Wareham. The only one where it seems to have a distinct benefit is the Isle of Wight, but that may also be people doing it as a day trip will use the link at Smallbrook rather than take their own car over, which can be costly.

The majority of visitors arrive at Heritage Railways by car - and are usually visiting a certain railway for a reason i.e. already visiting the area, there is a loco they particularly want to see or, in the case of a family it's Thomas / Peppa Pig / Santa trips.
 

Ken H

On Moderation
Joined
11 Nov 2018
Messages
6,319
Location
N Yorks
Too many preserved railways are just that. a short line. Then what? OK a caff and a what a load of cr@p shop. But for a real day out you need to add more. A model railway, or even a really diddy miniature railway. Maybe a vintage bus ride.
Just look at Devon Railway Centre - https://devonrailwaycentre.co.uk/
We took the grandkids there some years ago (not sure they would be interested no - they are 20 and 18!!!) But even though it was quite a bit of cash, it kept the kids entertained all day. We took a picnic but bought drinks and cakes from the shop. They loved the model railways in the old Mk 1's, and the choice of the different sized trains. But the playgrounds kept them occupied quite a while.
It wont be popular with the more snooty preservationists, but it was busy too.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
98,002
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
This was discussed not so long ago - and I think the general consensus was no - it came up in the context of the Swanage Railway and Wareham. The only one where it seems to have a distinct benefit is the Isle of Wight, but that may also be people doing it as a day trip will use the link at Smallbrook rather than take their own car over, which can be costly.

The high cost of taking a car to the Isle of Wight is one key reason why it has such a superb bus service for a very rural location - because of that cost, many tourists don't take one. If a bridge is ever built, public transport usage will reduce massively (and congestion increase accordingly).
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
17,788
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
The high cost of taking a car to the Isle of Wight is one key reason why it has such a superb bus service for a very rural location - because of that cost, many tourists don't take one. If a bridge is ever built, public transport usage will reduce massively (and congestion increase accordingly).

The IOW is already an arse to drive round. I find it one of the most tedious places in the U.K. to drive bar a few city centres. I don’t find the ferry that much of a hassle - it can be done quite cheaply providing one doesn’t pick high demand times. We came back last Friday evening, only a handful of cars on, and the whole process of arriving at Fishbourne to the ferry being on the move was less than 10 minutes.
 

LSWR Cavalier

Established Member
Joined
23 Aug 2020
Messages
1,565
Location
Leafy Suburbia
I think you're very much in the minority. Whenever I visit the Dean Forest Railway , for example, the vast majority of passengers drive to and board at Parkend, despite Lydney Town being convenient for buses and Lydney Junction for the national rail station.
This is a big problem. Preserved railways 'generate' an awful lot of motor traffic. Many volunteers drive long distances, often several days a week.

If some lines were closed and converted into cycleways a great deal less driving, plus more cycling, might be the result. Just look at the cars parked legally and illegally during Thomas © events. Not to mention the 'railfans' in cars whizzing about trying to find places to take pictures.

Could be a plusplus situation, really reducing driving and enabling cycling on suitable traffic-free routes.
 
Last edited:

43096

On Moderation
Joined
23 Nov 2015
Messages
15,350
I'm not sure it'd actually bother them that much provided the stock they are in is in good condition.
Mostly they’re not in good condition. Too many railways look like scrapyards with assorting rotting junk littering the place up. Every vehicle on site should have a purpose: either operational, under restoration (with a credible timescale) or supporting the above (providing parts or as stores vehicles). Anything else needs to go, and those in use as parts/stores vehicles should be moved away from the main public facing areas wherever possible.
 

Dai Corner

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2015
Messages
6,359
This is a big problem. Preserved railways 'generate' an awful lot of motor traffic. Many volunteers drive long distances, often several days a week.

If some lines were closed and converted into cycleways a great deal less driving, plus more cycling, might be the result. Just look at the cars parked legally and illegally during Thomas © events. Not to mention the 'railfans' in cars whizzing about trying to find places to take pictures.

Could be a plusplus situation, really reducing driving and enabling cycling on suitable traffic-free routes.
Are you saying that volunteers who enjoy maintaining and operating railways, families who take the kids to see Thomas and enthusiasts who travel to see and ride behind preserved traction would all buy bikes and take to cycling locally instead?
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
98,002
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Are you saying that volunteers who enjoy maintaining and operating railways, families who take the kids to see Thomas and enthusiasts who travel to see and ride behind preserved traction would all buy bikes and take to cycling locally instead?

A preserved railway is a tourist attraction/activity. Hiring bikes and riding down a scenic, safe, traffic free route is as well. I don't know which would be more profitable, but both would work.

There's a shortage of volunteers for preserved railways, so they can just go to other ones if one closed.
 

Dai Corner

Established Member
Joined
20 Jul 2015
Messages
6,359
A preserved railway is a tourist attraction/activity. Hiring bikes and riding down a scenic, safe, traffic free route is as well. I don't know which would be more profitable, but both would work.

There's a shortage of volunteers for preserved railways, so they can just go to other ones if one closed.
As can families and enthusiasts, thus generally increasing the length of their journeys and the amount of traffic on the roads. The opposite of what the OP hopes to achieve.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
98,002
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
As can families and enthusiasts, thus generally increasing the length of their journeys and the amount of traffic on the roads. The opposite of what the OP hopes to achieve.

You'd be right about enthusiast volunteers, but with regard to typical family holidays, people will tend to go away on holiday somewhere and will go to the preserved railway because it's a local attraction. Maybe less so for Thomas trains but they'll typically just be the local one.
 

61653 HTAFC

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Dec 2012
Messages
17,689
Location
Another planet...
I think you're very much in the minority. Whenever I visit the Dean Forest Railway , for example, the vast majority of passengers drive to and board at Parkend, despite Lydney Town being convenient for buses and Lydney Junction for the national rail station.
I agree that even for railways with a connection to National Rail or a reliable bus connection, the vast majority of visitors will arrive by private car- particularly families. However with "green" issues becoming more of a hot button, the ability to cater for those not using private cars (and electric cars aren't the answer on their own) is an advantage for those railways that have it.
 

Falcon1200

Established Member
Joined
14 Jun 2021
Messages
3,682
Location
Neilston, East Renfrewshire
You'd be right about enthusiast volunteers, but with regard to typical family holidays, people will tend to go away on holiday somewhere and will go to the preserved railway because it's a local attraction.

Indeed, and family holidays are the (only) circumstances in which I have visited the Swanage, East Somerset, Swindon & Cricklade and Llangollen Railways, because we happened to be in the area with the car. I would very much like to visit them again, as an enthusiast this time without having to keep the wife and kids happy, but the difficulty of access by public transport has so far prevented it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top