Same destination, same departure time, same train company

[Bletchleyite]

This is rather pedantic but it would be an advertised Vauxhall service under normal circumstances, not Earlsfield, and I agree it should be implemented.

False destinations are a terrible idea. They confuse the life out of people, even competent users. There are reasons people might want to use the stopping train over the fast one, e.g. because it is known to be quieter, they prefer the rolling stock used, they have a TOC specific ticket or things are delayed and so they are pretty sure it will be quicker. Or they simply see the 1015 to Farnborough and let it go because they were expecting the 1015 to Waterloo and don't quite know where Farnborough is (I almost did this with a group of Scouts at Bournemouth).

Train numbers are the right way to deal with reservations, says the rest of the world. For two at the same time, retime one a minute earlier (with due regard to connections). And if there's still confusion, put a "local stopping service" note on as some TOCs do.

 

[Siemens Trains]

Some years ago there were departures to Edinburgh from opposite sides of the same island platform at Birmingham New Street, one via Derby and the much faster one via Preston. It was particularly embarrassing for one particular passenger of my acquaintance who found himself heading towards Derby when his intended destination was Crewe as as he was a railway manager!

I'm reminded of the scenario some years ago at Birmingham New Street with these two departures:
10:03 to Edinburgh Waverley
10:03 to Edinburgh Waverley

One was Virgin Trains and the other Virgin Cross-Country. Cue total confusion!

Would have been especially confusing pre-2008-ish when both trains on the platform would have been Virgin Voyagers.

I think this happened a couple of times per day. I only had to make the Birmimgham to Edinburgh journey once under these circumstances and fortunately was alive to the position, knowing I'd need to look out for a "via ...." qualifier and have an awareness of stations along each route. But with a fairly short connection time at New Street I felt it wasn't made obvious, as departure boards simply listed both trains with Edinburgh as the destination. At the time I thought the situation could have been handled better as anyone not 'in the know' could easily find themselves on the wrong route and without the appropriate ticket.

 

[BayPaul]

Headcodes would surely add to the confusion, especially as so many passenger trains have a 4 digit headcode beginning with 1! Is a typical passenger who has seen the destination and time of a train really going to check their ticket and see that it has the wrong headcode? In airports I never look at the flight code, just the airline, time and destination.

 

[Class800]

I dont see how the railway could do much else in that situation though. The individual wanted Bournemouth and got on a train that didn't list Bournemouth as a calling point.

Make sure they don't all go at 12 past, use 11, 12 and 13 for example

 

[BayPaul]

Make sure they don't all go at 12 past, use 11, 12 and 13 for example

In a very busy station like Waterloo you start running out of times! In this case they would have been from 3 different parts of the station too, and depending on when the incident happened, the Bournemouth train would probably also have been a different colour!

 

[High Dyke]

Indeed. But the train from Portsmouth is never going from P1. The OP isn’t going to be caught out anyway, unless he loses his memory before he goes for the same train again…

It's surprising how many passengers seem to leave commonsense at the station entrance.

That doesn't solve the problem in the OP where the passenger has a reservation on the 16:34 to Waterloo and doesn't know which train it is on.
Edit: it would solve it if the reservation was on the fast train, but the reservation might be on the slow train due to different quota availability

is the OP wanting to travel to Waterloo itself, or one of the intermediate stations listed on the display? if it's the latter, then it's the responsibility of the OP to check which stations the train calls at. If in doubt then ask! Someone mentioned about missing connections; people have a tongue in their heads.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

Or we could back an relive the '1430 One service to Ipswich' experience?!!! Perfectly clear once you'd used it > 10 times.... and picked up the subtle inflection the computer introduced between 'thirty' and 'One'....

 

[urbophile]

And no, we don't want train ID numbers, regardless of what airlines, Germany, or Hong Kong, might do.

Why not? If you don't find them useful, just ignore them. In situations like this they could avoid confusion. Is Britain the only country where they are not used?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Apr 2022 ==

It's surprising how many passengers seem to leave commonsense at the station entrance.

is the OP wanting to travel to Waterloo itself, or one of the intermediate stations listed on the display? if it's the latter, then it's the responsibility of the OP to check which stations the train calls at. If in doubt then ask! Someone mentioned about missing connections; people have a tongue in their heads.

If you've only half a minute to spare you'd be lucky to find a member of staff to ask. Let alone one who actually knows the answer.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

In a very busy station like Waterloo you start running out of times! In this case they would have been from 3 different parts of the station too, and depending on when the incident happened, the Bournemouth train would probably also have been a different colour!

Good point about the train colours - the old SWT colour code for service types really helps when you're looking for an express white 444 instead of a stopping blue 450.

Now this has gone out of the window with the new SWR livery, a non savvy traveller may not realise they stepped into a 450 instead of 444 without noticing the double doors.

SWR perhaps should retain the colour coding though in 3 specific shades of their current colour scheme?

 

[DelW]

is the OP wanting to travel to Waterloo itself, or one of the intermediate stations listed on the display? if it's the latter, then it's the responsibility of the OP to check which stations the train calls at. If in doubt then ask! Someone mentioned about missing connections; people have a tongue in their heads.

The OP was making a point about using advance tickets with (counted place) reservations, which are only available (from Guildford) to places beyond London.

There are no advances or reservations available between Guildford and Waterloo, or points en route.

 

[py_megapixel]

And no, we don't want train ID numbers, regardless of what airlines, Germany, or Hong Kong, might do.

"we" meaning who exactly?

 

[boiledbeans2]

At one time there were three xx.12 departures from Waterloo (Windsor, Guildford via Woking, and Bournemouth), with no calling points in common except that two of them called at Clapham Junction. And I know of at least one person who got to Bournemouth over an hour late by taking the wrong train and then baling too early, so two further changes were necessary to get to the intended destination

There's still a triple departure at xx.20 in the current timetable.
Exeter service, Reading service and Woking stopping service.


Probably the only confusion is if someone is going to Woking and all he knows is that the departure time is xx.20

 

[Parallel]

I think false destinations would be better if the concept was executed better. Something like ‘Ealing Broadway’ on the departure board with ‘This train continues to London Paddington’ underneath. Then most passengers will be aware it’s a slow service and will therefore board a faster one, but it’s still clear for anyone who does want to catch the slower service.

There are some cases where false destinations are essential in my opinion, like the Waterloo circulars or some of the Merseyrail network.

 

[Taunton]

This sort of thing has been reported as a problem for 30 odd years. It began on the internet on uk.railway on usenet, where seasoned travellers would claim confused tourists at Norwich or Cambridge ended up in Liverpool rather than London. I don't recall a single report of that actually happening.

It certainly happened when the Watford DC line had trains to Liverpool Street in the 1980s-90s, which left Watford Junction from the opposite side of the island just when on the Down Fast a train stopped for Liverpool Lime Street, next stop Runcorn. The staff at the latter had to deal with the outcome more than once. It was exacerbated by the 8am local service to Liverpool Street forming a useful direct connection there to the morning Hook Continental to Harwich, for Hook and onwards, and was used by returning au-pairs to Europe with limited English, who had been taken as far as the Watford barrier by their host family, and pointed in the direction of the Liverpool Street train, while up on the platform which they needed to walk along the express roared in, to shouts of "Liverpool L'm Street".

 

[Shotton]

I don't think false destinations are appropiate personally - as stated previously, there are many legitimate reasons someone may want to use a stopping service.

"Local Stopping Service" is an effective solution.

Afaik, both the Waterloo and Merseyrail circulars are classed as seperate services with seperate headcodes, so the "false" destinations are fine, however, if this is not the case, they should be advertised as "Circular Service via x", this seems to be common amongst bus services, and the railway should, when it can, be advertising services as what they actually are.

Additionally, given this thread is essentially about ensuring people take the most appropiate service, I feel some surveying of average load/ideally live updates for capacity should also be included on departure boards - as avanti (tfw also report full and standing on some departure boards) do. Personally, I would change the "next fastest train to.." boards to "recommended train for" to distribute capacity better - expert users that value speed will still take the fast service, however, most people would probably value a seat/capacity more.

 

[py_megapixel]

I don't think false destinations are appropiate personally - as stated previously, there are many legitimate reasons someone may want to use a stopping service.
"Local Stopping Service" is an effective solution.

But it does take up extra space on the departure board compared to a false destination.

Afaik, both the Waterloo and Merseyrail circulars are classed as seperate services with seperate headcodes, so the "false" destinations are fine, however, if this is not the case, they should be advertised as "Circular Service via x", this seems to be common amongst bus services, and the railway should, when it can, be advertising services as what they actually are.

How do you define a "separate service"? The headcode is a pointless metric to use because it is basically irrelevant to the public and most passengers don't even know that it exists.

Additionally, given this thread is essentially about ensuring people take the most appropiate service, I feel some surveying of average load/ideally live updates for capacity should also be included on departure boards - as avanti (tfw also report full and standing on some departure boards) do. Personally, I would change the "next fastest train to.." boards to "recommended train for" to distribute capacity better - expert users that value speed will still take the fast service, however, most people would probably value a seat/capacity more.

That sounds like a good idea.

 

[zwk500]

Afaik, both the Waterloo and Merseyrail circulars are classed as seperate services with seperate headcodes, so the "false" destinations are fine, however, if this is not the case, they should be advertised as "Circular Service via x", this seems to be common amongst bus services, and the railway should, when it can, be advertising services as what they actually are.

Hounslow loop are certainly Waterloo-Waterloo schedules, as are pretty much all SE services (North Kents are Cannon St-Cannon St and the HS1 trains were St P-St P.). From RTT, services around the Merseyrail Loop are shown as returning to origin.

Waterloo rounders are advertised as being for Waterloo from origin, and you have to pay attention to the calling pattern to make sure you don't go the long way around. Not sure how the North Kent services are advertised but pretty sure the HS Rounders were advertised back to St Pancras and again relied on you checking the departure board to get the right train. I personally feel that false destinations for these trains would be better than advertising the train as Waterloo from Vauxhall when it's heading the wrong way!

 

[swt_passenger]

Hounslow loop are certainly Waterloo-Waterloo schedules, as are pretty much all SE services (North Kents are Cannon St-Cannon St and the HS1 trains were St P-St P.). From RTT, services around the Merseyrail Loop are shown as returning to origin.

Waterloo rounders are advertised as being for Waterloo from origin, and you have to pay attention to the calling pattern to make sure you don't go the long way around. Not sure how the North Kent services are advertised but pretty sure the HS Rounders were advertised back to St Pancras and again relied on you checking the departure board to get the right train. I personally feel that false destinations for these trains would be better than advertising the train as Waterloo from Vauxhall when it's heading the wrong way!

I thought the platform displays at intermediate stations on the Waterloo loop services did use a false destination part way round. IIRC we had a thread about it a while ago because the train’s onboard displays sometimes did it differently to the stations.

 

[zwk500]

I thought the platform displays at intermediate stations on the Waterloo loop services did use a false destination part way round. IIRC we had a thread about it a while ago because the train’s onboard displays sometimes did it differently to the stations.

Possibly. I'm fairly sure I've been at some stations where Waterloo has been shown in both directions, but they will usually have been on Rugby days when the special plan is on so may be different in normal use.

 

[Shotton]

Hounslow loop are certainly Waterloo-Waterloo schedules, as are pretty much all SE services (North Kents are Cannon St-Cannon St and the HS1 trains were St P-St P.). From RTT, services around the Merseyrail Loop are shown as returning to origin.

Waterloo rounders are advertised as being for Waterloo from origin, and you have to pay attention to the calling pattern to make sure you don't go the long way around. Not sure how the North Kent services are advertised but pretty sure the HS Rounders were advertised back to St Pancras and again relied on you checking the departure board to get the right train. I personally feel that false destinations for these trains would be better than advertising the train as Waterloo from Vauxhall when it's heading the wrong way!

My bad about the headcodes -- Merseyrail Wirral Lime trains on board are advertised as Liverpool Central until some point in the Loop, and then as the Wirral Line destination.

Personally, I feel like the appropriate advertisement for these trains is "(location) Circular via X" - there are fewer reasons why somebody would want to take a circular service in the wrong direction then a stopping service, however, there are reasons nonetheless.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Afaik, both the Waterloo and Merseyrail circulars are classed as seperate services with seperate headcodes, so the "false" destinations are fine, however, if this is not the case, they should be advertised as "Circular Service via x", this seems to be common amongst bus services, and the railway should, when it can, be advertising services as what they actually are.

The Merseyrail circulars aren't useful as such - at present they run e.g. Chester to Chester via Liverpool. This is one of the few cases where a false destination does make sense. If they ever end up running e.g. Chester to West Kirby via Liverpool, then that should be shown as such because some may find it useful (it'd likely be quicker to change at Hamilton Square, but there are reasons people, e.g. the infirm, may prefer just to stay on for the run round the Loop).

Any circular that could be useful as such, e.g. the Waterloo ones or Glenrothes-with-Thornton, should be advertised as "Circular via X" as per the convention with buses. If you want people not going all the way round because of a fare anomaly, put a route on the fares and create another one for the long way round priced at the maximum fare for the loop.

False destinations should not be used in any other context because they confuse people. PIS displays now show arrival times so you can compare, so "Local stopping service" as a note to draw attention to it is fine. If someone boards the wrong one it isn't disastrous, they still get to the place noted, just a little later.

 

[island]

Hounslow loop are certainly Waterloo-Waterloo schedules, as are pretty much all SE services (North Kents are Cannon St-Cannon St and the HS1 trains were St P-St P.).

As a Southeastern local I definitely wouldn't say it's "pretty much all". Charing Cross services are almost all not loops, they mainly go to Dartford or Gravesend and back again the same way. No loops on Orpington or Hayes services either.

Not sure how the North Kent services are advertised

Quite sensibly. A Cannon Street to Sidcup to Greenwich to Cannon Street service will be advertised on the boards at Cannon Street and London Bridge as "Crayford via Sidcup". At New Cross this has become Slade Green via Sidcup. At Hither Green, it's Woolwich Arsenal. At Slade Green it changes to Cannon Street via Greenwich. And at Maze Hill it's just Cannon Street. The reverse service comes up similarly.

 

[zwk500]

As a Southeastern local I definitely wouldn't say it's "pretty much all". Charing Cross services are almost all not loops, they mainly go to Dartford or Gravesend and back again the same way. No loops on Orpington or Hayes services either.

Apologies, I meant of those SE services that from circular/rounder services, nearly all or all of them are a single headcode.

Quite sensibly. A Cannon Street to Sidcup to Greenwich to Cannon Street service will be advertised on the boards at Cannon Street and London Bridge as "Crayford via Sidcup". At New Cross this has become Slade Green via Sidcup. At Hither Green, it's Woolwich Arsenal. At Slade Green it changes to Cannon Street via Greenwich. And at Maze Hill it's just Cannon Street. The reverse service comes up similarly.

Cheers for the info.

 

[Ethano92]

Waterloo rounders are advertised as being for Waterloo from origin, and you have to pay attention to the calling pattern to make sure you don't go the long way around. Not sure how the North Kent services are advertised but pretty sure the HS Rounders were advertised back to St Pancras and again relied on you checking the departure board to get the right train. I personally feel that false destinations for these trains would be better than advertising the train as Waterloo from Vauxhall when it's heading the wrong way!

I believe the Hounslow rounders are displayed as either ‘Hounslow via Richmond’ or ‘Hounslow via Brentford’ and this isn’t changed until the train reaches Hounslow where it is then advertised as Waterloo via either Brentford or Richmond.

The Kingston rounders between Waterloo and Clapham Junction are either shown as “Strawberry Hill via Kingston” or “Teddington via Richmond”. Their destinations change as they continue along the route to either Wimbledon if travelling via Richmond first, or Richmond if travelling via Wimbledon first. It’s not until Strawberry Hill that both trains then show as London Waterloo. Saying that, I know some platforms like Kingston do show Waterloo via X in both directions. If there was a gap in the service via Wimbledon it could be faster to travel via Richmond I suppose, I don’t know how often this is though and if anyone does travel this way.

 

[infobleep]

Someone who wants to get to Earlsfield (or Vauxhall for that matter) as soon as possible should catch the "via Woking" train and change at Clapham Junction. Someone else might value not having to change more.

Anyone who was only going to Wimbledon should catch the slower train, but putting that on the destination screen would confuse people who actually want a later stop.

It could happen if they needed to clear the platform; one train would just have a red light in its immediate future. I've been on a train which did something like that, probably because both trains' departure times had been and gone, and the crew didn't want anyone else boarding the stopper.

There is only one fast train an hour to Clapham Junction off-peak, save during part of the evening when it goes to 2 trains

In parts of the morning peak, there is nothing. So someone going to Vauxhall or even Clapham Junction might actually need to go via Cobham.

The stopping trains to Waterloo use to depart at x07 and x37, saving during the leaf fall timetable period when it would mostly be x04 x34 but occasionally x35.

I assume for reliability reasons they decided to make everything x04 and x34.

I use to find most of the trains got held outside of Surbiton anyway as the semi-fast from Alton to Waterloo departs 3 minutes before it. So my non-expert view would be that dealing with reliability issues prior to Surbiton wouldn't make much difference, given it still departs from Surbiton at the same time and the train from Alton will delay it if anything does.

 

[norbitonflyer]

I believe the Hounslow rounders are displayed as either ‘Hounslow via Richmond’ or ‘Hounslow via Brentford’ and this isn’t changed until the train reaches Hounslow where it is then advertised as Waterloo via either Brentford or Richmond.

The Kingston rounders between Waterloo and Clapham Junction are either shown as “Strawberry Hill via Kingston” or “Teddington via Richmond”. Their destinations change as they continue along the route to either Wimbledon if travelling via Richmond first, or Richmond if travelling via Wimbledon first. It’s not until Strawberry Hill that both trains then show as London Waterloo. Saying that, I know some platforms like Kingston do show Waterloo via X in both directions. If there was a gap in the service via Wimbledon it could be faster to travel via Richmond I suppose, I don’t know how often this is though and if anyone does travel this way.

Indeed, Waterloo is shown in both directions from Kingston, and I went tghe long way round on my most recent trip to London because of a gap in the service via Wimbledon (passengers not being helped by staff on the concourse saying there were "no trains to London").

Headcodes remain unchanged all the way round "O" clockwise, "K" anticlockwise. Although "false" destinations are used (Strawberry Hill as far as Earlsfield, Richmond until New Malden, Waterloo after that) notices on the website of canecallations always refer to the xx.xx "Waterloo to Waterloo" services, which is not helpful if you don't know which of the four routes (Hounslow or Kingston, clockwise or anticlosckwise) leaves Waterloo at which times. (It is also unhelpful that, if you are travelling from Waterloo to Teddington the quickest service is the "Strawberry Hill" service, and vice versa. Moreover, if travelling to Strawberry Hill, not only does it take longer on the "Strawberry Hill" train, but you pass through Zone 6 and back into Zone 5, so should be charged the higher fare. I don't know if the card readers at the separate exits are set up to do that (as they are for instance at Victoria and Heathrow to fleece "Exporess" customers

 

[TUC]

There are two trains, both departing at 16:34, from Guildford to London Waterloo on South Western Railway. One is a reservable fast train and the other is a local slow train.

View attachment 112285

This shows that confusion can really happen if a reservation coupon only uses the time and destination as the identifier. Such reservation can happen for an advance ticket from Guildford to the North because the fast train is reservable, and catching the slow train by mistake can lead to missing the long distance train from London.

What seems to happen often at Leeds is that the displayed final destination of the slow train is one stop short of the actual final destination, in order to reduce the potential for confusion.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

What seems to happen often at Leeds is that the displayed final destination of the slow train is one stop short of the actual final destination, in order to reduce the potential for confusion.

This wasn't the case with the old teatime Leeds to Sheffield via Huddersfield service: at Leeds this was advertised as going to Dodworth, the final unique destination before rejoining the route of the more direct service (via Wakefield Kirkgate) at Barnsley. Of course in that case, advertising it as a Meadowhall train would cause confusion, although the Dodworth false destination did occasionally leave people wondering where the Huddersfield stopper had gone that hour!

 

[duncanp]

Some while ago I took a train from Birmingham to Nottingham.

Whilst reversing at Derby, I looked at the departure screen, and there was a 09:11 to Newcastle, and a 09:14 to Newark Castle.

What could possibly go wrong there, especially if you were hard of hearing, or unfamiliar with the area and didn't even realise there was such a destination as Newark Castle?

 

[zwk500]

Some while ago I took a train from Birmingham to Nottingham.

Whilst reversing at Derby, I looked at the departure screen, and there was a 09:11 to Newcastle, and a 09:14 to Newark Castle.

What could possibly go wrong there, especially if you were hard of hearing, or unfamiliar with the area and didn't even realise there was such a destination as Newark Castle?

That really is a mountain out of a molehill. The gap between Newark and Castle is your first clue, the fact that 'eleven' and 'fourteen' sound nothing like each other also helps, and one is operated by Crosscountry while the other is operated by East Midlands Railway, which sound absolutely nothing like each other.