EMR fares should be lowered to levels comparable with other lines

[Bletchleyite]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/emr-class-360s.205226/

Got to agree with this. The 350's are superb trains. Really good. I am suprised the froth the emr use of 360's on comparible ( to lnwr) london servies generates. They should be just as good.

Have you seen the fares? A 3+2 commuter train (even if it's probably the best of that genre) isn't acceptable if you're charging InterCity level fares.

A TPE-style 350/4 would be acceptable, though (i.e. 2+2 Std, 2+1 1st).

 

[DarloRich]

Have you seen the fares? A 3+2 commuter train (even if it's probably the best of that genre) isn't acceptable if you're charging InterCity level fares.

A TPE-style 350/4 would be acceptable, though (i.e. 2+2 Std, 2+1 1st).

Thats why i agreed with the quoted post. The issue is not the trains it is the cost.

(noting the trains need an internal refurb)

 

[A0wen]

Have you seen the fares? A 3+2 commuter train (even if it's probably the best of that genre) isn't acceptable if you're charging InterCity level fares.

Since when did the fares reflect the standard of rolling stock though?

The differential with Wellingborough and Kettering was caused by them sitting outside what was the old London South East area and its fare structure.

You can see a similar thing if you look at the price of an open return to London from Newmarket at £ 60.10 compared to Cambridge £ 43.20 (Liverpool Street) or March to London at £ 121.20 compared to Ely £ 52.20 or Kings Lynn £ 65.70. Or Manningtree (£ 64.70) compared to Ipswich (£ 89.70).

 

[Helvellyn]

Since when did the fares reflect the standard of rolling stock though?

The differential with Wellingborough and Kettering was caused by them sitting outside what was the old London South East area and its fare structure.

You can see a similar thing if you look at the price of an open return to London from Newmarket at £ 60.10 compared to Cambridge £ 43.20 (Liverpool Street) or March to London at £ 121.20 compared to Ely £ 52.20 or Kings Lynn £ 65.70. Or Manningtree (£ 64.70) compared to Ipswich (£ 89.70).

The upset is that having being paying "InterCity" prices customers no longer have an "InterCity" service, i.e. they have lost HSTs and 222s for 360s still in an outer suburban layout. A much smaller set of clients has also lost any First Class provision - Wellingborough being the only station EMR operate on the MML now having no First Class service (Bedford, Luton and Luton Parkway at least have Thameslink for First Class).

Pre-COVID you could reserve seats from Wellingborough, and peak services were either non-stop to St Pancras or generally only stopped at Luton Airport Parkway. With the three stops now on all services, and the fact there are 8-car (or even 4-car) services rather than the promised 12-car overcrowding is common. The 3+2 seating doesn't guarantee everyone a seat, many not wanting to use the third seat and even in the pairs some people find them too cramped.

It should also be remembered that in the peaks there has been a reduction in service, e.g. two trains an hour when between 07:00-08:00 there were previously five. Off-peak the clockface intervals are better than two trains ten minutes apart, but in summary I think regular travellers view things as a downgrade because:

• promised 12-car trains in the peaks haven't materialised - this was meant to justify the Bedford, Luton and Luton Airport stops;
• the fact they can't even run 8-car trains day-in day-out (requiring 12 out of 21 units);
• the time keeping of the Connect services is poor, though that may be the timetable, e.g. Up services held at Wellingborough for InterCity trains to pass, then missing paths so the delay increases;
• no sign of the promised refurbishment to provide 2+2 InterCity quality seating, plus additional luggage space for Luton Airport passengers; and
• continued rumours First Class won't return even if refurbishment won't happen (a DfT driven decision if that is so).

Kettering passengers at least have the option of their two InterCity services each hour. The irony is that if the 360s were refurbished as promised, and running as 12-cars in the peaks, you'd actually be able to encourage more Kettering passengers to use them releasing more capacity on the InterCity services.

The sad thing is that if reliability was nailed, and the units refurbished, the 360s absolutely would be a great fit alongside the new Aurora units (810s). Heck, even the 3+2 seating would be fine if the other things could be addressed in the short-term. It's not even like EMR have looked at anything to compensate all these issues, e.g. adding Wellingborough to the Network/Gold Card areas.

 

[A0wen]

The upset is that having being paying "InterCity" prices customers no longer have an "InterCity" service, i.e. they have lost HSTs and 222s for 360s still in an outer suburban layout. A much smaller set of clients has also lost any First Class provision - Wellingborough being the only station EMR operate on the MML now having no First Class service (Bedford, Luton and Luton Parkway at least have Thameslink for First Class).

Pre-COVID you could reserve seats from Wellingborough, and peak services were either non-stop to St Pancras or generally only stopped at Luton Airport Parkway. With the three stops now on all services, and the fact there are 8-car (or even 4-car) services rather than the promised 12-car overcrowding is common. The 3+2 seating doesn't guarantee everyone a seat, many not wanting to use the third seat and even in the pairs some people find them too cramped.

It should also be remembered that in the peaks there has been a reduction in service, e.g. two trains an hour when between 07:00-08:00 there were previously five. Off-peak the clockface intervals are better than two trains ten minutes apart, but in summary I think regular travellers view things as a downgrade because:

• promised 12-car trains in the peaks haven't materialised - this was meant to justify the Bedford, Luton and Luton Airport stops;
• the fact they can't even run 8-car trains day-in day-out (requiring 12 out of 21 units);
• the time keeping of the Connect services is poor, though that may be the timetable, e.g. Up services held at Wellingborough for InterCity trains to pass, then missing paths so the delay increases;
• no sign of the promised refurbishment to provide 2+2 InterCity quality seating, plus additional luggage space for Luton Airport passengers; and
• continued rumours First Class won't return even if refurbishment won't happen (a DfT driven decision if that is so).

Kettering passengers at least have the option of their two InterCity services each hour. The irony is that if the 360s were refurbished as promised, and running as 12-cars in the peaks, you'd actually be able to encourage more Kettering passengers to use them releasing more capacity on the InterCity services.

The sad thing is that if reliability was nailed, and the units refurbished, the 360s absolutely would be a great fit alongside the new Aurora units (810s). Heck, even the 3+2 seating would be fine if the other things could be addressed in the short-term. It's not even like EMR have looked at anything to compensate all these issues, e.g. adding Wellingborough to the Network/Gold Card areas.

Bit in bold - is that even an operator led decision?

 

[Helvellyn]

Bit in bold - is that even an operator led decision?

I don't honestly know, but London Midland certainly were able to get the Gold Card area expanded in the late 2000s. I imagine like pretty much anything it would need DfT sign-off but it depends if anyone is even prepared to make a case.

 

[spotify95]

Since when did the fares reflect the standard of rolling stock though?

The differential with Wellingborough and Kettering was caused by them sitting outside what was the old London South East area and its fare structure.

You can see a similar thing if you look at the price of an open return to London from Newmarket at £ 60.10 compared to Cambridge £ 43.20 (Liverpool Street) or March to London at £ 121.20 compared to Ely £ 52.20 or Kings Lynn £ 65.70. Or Manningtree (£ 64.70) compared to Ipswich (£ 89.70).

The problem between Bedford and Wellingborough/Kettering is that it's not a small differential - it's a huge chasm.

I've looked online (Trainline and EMR's website quote the same price) and found that an Anytime Day Return from Bedford to London St Pancras is £47.70, or £56.50 with a travelcard. Going via GTR might (or might not) be cheaper if they have special GTR only tickets (though I doubt they would apply during peak hours).

The same tickets from Wellingborough are significantly more expensive: £110 for an anytime return (they don't do day returns) or £117.30 with a travelcard! That's over double the cost compared to Bedford - and an anytime day return from Wellingborough to Bedford is only £15.50.
So you save over £45 per day by splitting your ticket at Bedford - which the ticket machines have no option of doing, and the staff at the counters will only do if you specifically ask for the ticket to be split at Bedford.

As an aside, Kettering's Anytime Return/Travelcard prices are only £6 more expensive than Wellingborough's - and Kettering gets Intercity standard trains with better seating (2+2 instead of 3+2), higher top speed (125mph/201kmph compared to 110mph/177kmph WEL-BDM and 100mph/161kmph BDM-STP) and more features (tables at seats, plug sockets, option of First Class, direct service with no intermediate stops).
So it seems like Wellingborough really got shafted when you consider the rolling stock used, the service given, and the cost of the service (it's still £63.20 for an anytime return even splitting at Bedford).

 

[baz962]

The problem between Bedford and Wellingborough/Kettering is that it's not a small differential - it's a huge chasm.

I've looked online (Trainline and EMR's website quote the same price) and found that an Anytime Day Return from Bedford to London St Pancras is £47.70, or £56.50 with a travelcard. Going via GTR might (or might not) be cheaper if they have special GTR only tickets (though I doubt they would apply during peak hours).

The same tickets from Wellingborough are significantly more expensive: £110 for an anytime return (they don't do day returns) or £117.30 with a travelcard! That's over double the cost compared to Bedford - and an anytime day return from Wellingborough to Bedford is only £15.50.
So you save over £45 per day by splitting your ticket at Bedford - which the ticket machines have no option of doing, and the staff at the counters will only do if you specifically ask for the ticket to be split at Bedford.

As an aside, Kettering's Anytime Return/Travelcard prices are only £6 more expensive than Wellingborough's - and Kettering gets Intercity standard trains with better seating (2+2 instead of 3+2), higher top speed (125mph/201kmph compared to 110mph/177kmph WEL-BDM and 100mph/161kmph BDM-STP) and more features (tables at seats, plug sockets, option of First Class, direct service with no intermediate stops).
So it seems like Wellingborough really got shafted when you consider the rolling stock used, the service given, and the cost of the service (it's still £63.20 for an anytime return even splitting at Bedford).

You don't get much 125 running . It's not 125 between all of Wellingborough and Bedford , only after Sharnbrook and Bedford. And quite often the inter city gets stuck behind a Thameslink and rarely does over 100 after Luton airport Parkway. Not much point going towards Bedford and Wellingborough either , as they get stuck behind the 360.

 

[Hadders]

The problem between Bedford and Wellingborough/Kettering is that it's not a small differential - it's a huge chasm.

I've looked online (Trainline and EMR's website quote the same price) and found that an Anytime Day Return from Bedford to London St Pancras is £47.70, or £56.50 with a travelcard. Going via GTR might (or might not) be cheaper if they have special GTR only tickets (though I doubt they would apply during peak hours).

The same tickets from Wellingborough are significantly more expensive: £110 for an anytime return (they don't do day returns) or £117.30 with a travelcard! That's over double the cost compared to Bedford - and an anytime day return from Wellingborough to Bedford is only £15.50.
So you save over £45 per day by splitting your ticket at Bedford - which the ticket machines have no option of doing, and the staff at the counters will only do if you specifically ask for the ticket to be split at Bedford.

As an aside, Kettering's Anytime Return/Travelcard prices are only £6 more expensive than Wellingborough's - and Kettering gets Intercity standard trains with better seating (2+2 instead of 3+2), higher top speed (125mph/201kmph compared to 110mph/177kmph WEL-BDM and 100mph/161kmph BDM-STP) and more features (tables at seats, plug sockets, option of First Class, direct service with no intermediate stops).
So it seems like Wellingborough really got shafted when you consider the rolling stock used, the service given, and the cost of the service (it's still £63.20 for an anytime return even splitting at Bedford).

There are no GTR only tickets from Bedford, because they set the Any Permitted fare.

 

[A0wen]

The problem between Bedford and Wellingborough/Kettering is that it's not a small differential - it's a huge chasm.

No different to other areas which were the first or second stop outside the old Network South East area - I gave examples like March or Ipswich where the fares similarly jump compared to the next stop.

 

[InTheEastMids]

No different to other areas which were the first or second stop outside the old Network South East area - I gave examples like March or Ipswich where the fares similarly jump compared to the next stop.

Just because Wellingborough isn't unique doesn't make it OK

It may be helpful to think that is isn't just Wellingborough (& North) customers being gouged, but Bedford (& South) travellers being tacitly subsidised through the compounding effects of lower fare increases over an extended period.

Anecdotally, I'm aware of people living in the MML catchment (north of Bedford) that have driven to places including Bedford, Northampton, Huntingdon, Rugby or even Luton Airport Parkway because of costs of tickets on the MML. However, that's qualitative and it would obviously be great if anybody could point to anything quantitative, remembering that there's the direct impact on rail travel and - if you're government - the indirect impact on local economies that you're trying to grow, additional traffic/CO2 etc. from the extra driving.

The historical basis for the anomaly ought to be completely irrelevant - It's getting on for 30 years since privatisation. Whilst there would clearly have been a desired outcome (economic &/or social &/or political) that gave rise to it, are those outcomes still relevant or desired by the railway today?

The open question I would ask is whether there is a pricing strategy that would give rise to this anomaly, if implemented today?

 

[A0wen]

Just because Wellingborough isn't unique doesn't make it OK

It may be helpful to think that is isn't just Wellingborough (& North) customers being gouged, but Bedford (& South) travellers being tacitly subsidised through the compounding effects of lower fare increases over an extended period.

Anecdotally, I'm aware of people living in the MML catchment (north of Bedford) that have driven to places including Bedford, Northampton, Huntingdon, Rugby or even Luton Airport Parkway because of costs of tickets on the MML. However, that's qualitative and it would obviously be great if anybody could point to anything quantitative, remembering that there's the direct impact on rail travel and - if you're government - the indirect impact on local economies that you're trying to grow, additional traffic/CO2 etc. from the extra driving.

The historical basis for the anomaly ought to be completely irrelevant - It's getting on for 30 years since privatisation. Whilst there would clearly have been a desired outcome (economic &/or social &/or political) that gave rise to it, are those outcomes still relevant or desired by the railway today?

The open question I would ask is whether there is a pricing strategy that would give rise to this anomaly, if implemented today?

Knowing the area - for most places between Bedford and Wellingborough or even east of Wellingborough, for most places more than one station which is easily accessible.

To use Thrapston as an example the "closest" as the crow flies is Wellingborough, but the roads heading that way aren't as good, particularly since Rushden Lakes was built - so both Kettering and Huntingdon are easily accessible from the A14, particularly now that's been improved at Huntingdon.

For places like Sharnbrook or Milton Earnest on the A6 corridor, Bedford is more accessible than Wellingborough.

Olney is pretty much equidistant from Milton Keynes, Bedford, Northampton and Wellingborough.

Rugby makes no sense for anyone living in proximity to the MML unless they are heading towards Birmingham or the North West - an open return to London is £ 150 - more than Kettering, Wellingborough or Market Harborough.

Driving to Luton Airport Parkway I kind of get - particularly if your destination is one of the intermediate stops before Kentish Town. On the pre-Corby electrics timetable, the stopping patterns from Kettering and Wellingborough were quite random - and if you wanted one of the stops south of Luton you'd almost certainly end up going into St P and coming out rather than changing at Luton.

 

[cle]

Historical NSE fares should not determine today's. It might be the reason and history behind them, but it's not rationale for them continuing to be the same.

If we're moving towards more nationalization-lite/not in name, whatever it is - fares should be recalculated and based on mileage/journey time/however it's done - but equally on all the mainlines radiating from London and on non-London fares too. If advance fares are then sold, promotions can be whatever demand and the market needs, but the standard fares should be calibrated so that Wellingborough pays similar to Northampton etc.

You could have loose zoning, to encourage connecting vs railheading - but that is relatively London centric. So perhaps there is that, and then a non-London format which can be far cheaper to encourage local, regional, XC and not-London commuting to the other cities' networks.

 

[AM9]

The problem between Bedford and Wellingborough/Kettering is that it's not a small differential - it's a huge chasm.

I've looked online (Trainline and EMR's website quote the same price) and found that an Anytime Day Return from Bedford to London St Pancras is £47.70, or £56.50 with a travelcard. Going via GTR might (or might not) be cheaper if they have special GTR only tickets (though I doubt they would apply during peak hours).

The same tickets from Wellingborough are significantly more expensive: £110 for an anytime return (they don't do day returns) or £117.30 with a travelcard! That's over double the cost compared to Bedford - and an anytime day return from Wellingborough to Bedford is only £15.50.
So you save over £45 per day by splitting your ticket at Bedford - which the ticket machines have no option of doing, and the staff at the counters will only do if you specifically ask for the ticket to be split at Bedford.

As an aside, Kettering's Anytime Return/Travelcard prices are only £6 more expensive than Wellingborough's - and Kettering gets Intercity standard trains with better seating (2+2 instead of 3+2), higher top speed (125mph/201kmph compared to 110mph/177kmph WEL-BDM and 100mph/161kmph BDM-STP) and more features (tables at seats, plug sockets, option of First Class, direct service with no intermediate stops).
So it seems like Wellingborough really got shafted when you consider the rolling stock used, the service given, and the cost of the service (it's still £63.20 for an anytime return even splitting at Bedford).

Actually, your comparison with the "Anytime Return" BDM - STP with the "same tickets" WEL - STP is misleading. The Bedford ticket is a day return (SDR) whereas the Wellingborough ticket (and those to all the other EMR stations) are open returns (SOR). A more relevant comparison would be against 2 x an anytime single (SDS) from BDM which is £59.80.
So the comparable cost per mile for the MML stations mentioned is then:
BDM-STP £0.60 per mile
WEL-STP £0.85 per mile
KET-STP £0.81 per mile
COR-STP £0.76 per mile
MHR-STP £0.81 per mile
Still more expensive (in part maybe justifiable with better trains) but not as much as your £47.70 vs £110.00 being "over double the cost".

 

[InTheEastMids]

Rugby makes no sense for anyone living in proximity to the MML

Agree with all your post except this as the combination of the fast LNWR service and LNWR-only tickets - in this example I've used Anytime Travelcard
Rugby (LNWR only) £98
Harborough £141
Rugby (all) £161
Leicester £189

I'm aware of contacts of mine travelling to Rugby from South side of Leicester, and from villages West of Harborough (plus somebody from Harborough who regularly drives to Northampton). This is evidence of the market working (in the context of the intent of rail privatisation) - buyers voting with their feet and heading for LNWR. If it's your own money then it's quite a compelling argument.

For the avoidance of doubt, I'm not claiming the East Mids highways network is clogged every morning with people fleeing EMR fares to catch LNWR/GTR. I've genuinely no idea how widespread this is. It's more that, the EMR catchment is somewhat smaller than it could and perhaps should be, and perhaps is losing a significant number of customers at the margin.

So for me, there are 3 different questions, depending on the particular definition of "value" I feel like using.

Are EMR's current fares good...
1. ...value for the taxpayer - in terms of maximising revenue and minimising subsidy? (especially given changing travel patterns post-Covid)
2. ...value for UK - in terms of economic development and social value along the MML? (e.g. create/sustain jobs, avoided traffic, pollution & CO2)
3. ...value for passengers - i.e. are the fares comparatively fair for the service offered? (i.e. vs LNWR and GTR alternatives)

Personally, I think the answers are Maybe, No and No respectively, and I notice while writing that @AM9 has just demonstrated that EMR fares from North of Bedford are about 25% per mile more
(However to address this comment below: I bet the overwhelming majority of people buying SORs from Wellingborough are returning the same day, so it is valid compare SDRs and SORs on this particular route).

he Bedford ticket is a day return (SDR) whereas the Wellingborough ticket are open returns (SOR)

 

[AM9]

Personally, I think the answers are Maybe, No and No respectively, and I notice while writing that @AM9 has just demonstrated that EMR fares from North of Bedford are about 25% per mile more
(However to address this comment below: I bet the overwhelming majority of people buying SORs from Wellingborough are returning the same day, so it is valid compare SDRs and SORs on this particular route).

All I can say is "it happens", much like the less attractive deals that places just outside the London Travelcard zones get. I personally don't have any problems with the class 700s on Thameslink, but judging by posts here many do so being able to travel on HSTs, Meridians, 810 in the future and even 360s now would be seen to be a benefit.
The main driver for these price differentials is the volume of passengers and the desire for travel in the London area to be by rail instead of private car.

 

[geoffk]

What about Northampton v Wellingborough, 13 miles apart and both a similar distance from London? One formerly NSE, the other Inter-City. The difference in fares must be considerable. I can't comment on 350 v 360 as I've never been on a 360. Are Wellingborough to London tickets significantly overpriced in comparison to their Northampton counterparts?

 

[spotify95]

Actually, your comparison with the "Anytime Return" BDM - STP with the "same tickets" WEL - STP is misleading. The Bedford ticket is a day return (SDR) whereas the Wellingborough ticket (and those to all the other EMR stations) are open returns (SOR). A more relevant comparison would be against 2 x an anytime single (SDS) from BDM which is £59.80.
So the comparable cost per mile for the MML stations mentioned is then:
BDM-STP £0.60 per mile
WEL-STP £0.85 per mile
KET-STP £0.81 per mile
COR-STP £0.76 per mile
MHR-STP £0.81 per mile
Still more expensive (in part maybe justifiable with better trains) but not as much as your £47.70 vs £110.00 being "over double the cost".

If you want an even fairer comparison, take the price of an Anytime Day Travelcard (available at both stations, and quite popular given it also includes the Underground). Bedford £56.50, Wellingborough £117.30, with WEL-BDM being £15.50.
So it becomes £56.50 (from Bedford) vs £72 (from Wellingborough, split at Bedford) vs £117.30 (from Wellingborough, no split).

Given how the ticket machines will not let you split at Bedford, and that you'll only get your fare split at the counter if you specifically ask for it to be split, the standard "anytime day travelcard" is still over double the cost at Wellingborough (compared to Bedford).

Also, I'm pretty sure that most people who don't try to get Advance tickets (fixed to particular trains) just want a standard return, and won't care if it's a day return or a month return. The only difference is that some stations don't sell day returns, and in both cases (Wellingborough and Bedford), an upgrade to the Day Travelcard is less than £10.

So the ultimate conclusion is - no matter what way you try and look at it - the Wellingborough to London tickets are significantly overpriced in comparison to their Bedford counterparts. Bedford has the option of EMR or GTR, both of which are the same price for an Anytime Day Return or Anytime Day Travelcard, and Kettering's increased prices can partially be justified by having direct non-stop services via EMR Intercity (though I do believe that there should also be a Connect only price tariff, being more inline with Bedford's pricing). If you don't drive to Bedford, or split your ticket at Bedford, you're paying too much money (by approximately £40 per day).

 

[A0wen]

What about Northampton v Wellingborough, both a similar distance from London? One formerly NSE, the other Inter-City. The difference in fares must be considerable. I can't comment on 350 v 360 as I've never been on a 360.

Northampton is cheaper *but* the journey time is generally slower than Wellingborough.

Wellingborough you're looking at 2tph with a journey time of ~55 mins and pretty evenly spaced departures.

Northampton you're looking at (May timetable) 3 tph, lousily spaced (xx.05, xx.25 and xx.38-xx.42 depending on the hour) and journey times of 1h 18m, 1h 01m, 52m respectively.

Northampton station is also lousily sited - you're talking a good 15-20 mins in rush hour to get from the A45 (Queen Eleanor or Brackmills) to the station. If you're coming in from the north of Northampton - so Brixworth, Chapel Brampton etc, you can safely assume you'll be queuing for at least 10 minutes through Kingsthorpe at pretty much any time of the day.

Agree with all your post except this as the combination of the fast LNWR service and LNWR-only tickets - in this example I've used Anytime Travelcard
Rugby (LNWR only) £98
Harborough £141
Rugby (all) £161
Leicester £189

I'm aware of contacts of mine travelling to Rugby from South side of Leicester, and from villages West of Harborough (plus somebody from Harborough who regularly drives to Northampton). This is evidence of the market working (in the context of the intent of rail privatisation) - buyers voting with their feet and heading for LNWR. If it's your own money then it's quite a compelling argument.

For the avoidance of doubt, I'm not claiming the East Mids highways network is clogged every morning with people fleeing EMR fares to catch LNWR/GTR. I've genuinely no idea how widespread this is. It's more that, the EMR catchment is somewhat smaller than it could and perhaps should be, and perhaps is losing a significant number of customers at the margin.

So for me, there are 3 different questions, depending on the particular definition of "value" I feel like using.

Are EMR's current fares good...
1. ...value for the taxpayer - in terms of maximising revenue and minimising subsidy? (especially given changing travel patterns post-Covid)
2. ...value for UK - in terms of economic development and social value along the MML? (e.g. create/sustain jobs, avoided traffic, pollution & CO2)
3. ...value for passengers - i.e. are the fares comparatively fair for the service offered? (i.e. vs LNWR and GTR alternatives)

Personally, I think the answers are Maybe, No and No respectively, and I notice while writing that @AM9 has just demonstrated that EMR fares from North of Bedford are about 25% per mile more
(However to address this comment below: I bet the overwhelming majority of people buying SORs from Wellingborough are returning the same day, so it is valid compare SDRs and SORs on this particular route).

In the interests of balance, I would point out that Leicester is ~ 20 miles further out than Rugby from London. In fact Leicester's further from St Pancras than Coventry is from Euston.

 

[AM9]

If you want an even fairer comparison, take the price of an Anytime Day Travelcard (available at both stations, and quite popular given it also includes the Underground). Bedford £56.50, Wellingborough £117.30, with WEL-BDM being £15.50.
So it becomes £56.50 (from Bedford) vs £72 (from Wellingborough, split at Bedford) vs £117.30 (from Wellingborough, no split).

Given how the ticket machines will not let you split at Bedford, and that you'll only get your fare split at the counter if you specifically ask for it to be split, the standard "anytime day travelcard" is still over double the cost at Wellingborough (compared to Bedford).

Also, I'm pretty sure that most people who don't try to get Advance tickets (fixed to particular trains) just want a standard return, and won't care if it's a day return or a month return. The only difference is that some stations don't sell day returns, and in both cases (Wellingborough and Bedford), an upgrade to the Day Travelcard is less than £10.

So the ultimate conclusion is - no matter what way you try and look at it - the Wellingborough to London tickets are significantly overpriced in comparison to their Bedford counterparts. Bedford has the option of EMR or GTR, both of which are the same price for an Anytime Day Return or Anytime Day Travelcard, and Kettering's increased prices can partially be justified by having direct non-stop services via EMR Intercity (though I do believe that there should also be a Connect only price tariff, being more inline with Bedford's pricing). If you don't drive to Bedford, or split your ticket at Bedford, you're paying too much money (by approximately £40 per day).

Then the fix is obvious, split. It's an easy split and as most trains to STP stop at Bedford, there's little chance of the split being invalid or some sly tweaking with either the rules or the timetable to make it impossible so everybody can use it.
Bedford is an outer suburban commuter location so it has commuter trains, most of which take 60 minutes to travel just under 50 miles. There are also a few trains that take 40 minutes. Wellingborough is a low volume commuter station that is just under 65 miles form STP, - it has 2tph to and from London on trains that are better than most of the services from Bedford, and they take about 52 minutes for the longer journey. That seems about right to me.
Incidentally, using that simple legal split, the WEL STP fare is 56p/mile whereas the BDM STP fare is 60p/mile so Wellinborough travellers are paying less per mile for a faster train.

 

[InTheEastMids]

Then the fix is obvious, split. It's an easy split and as most trains to STP stop at Bedford, there's little chance of the split being invalid or some sly tweaking with either the rules or the timetable to make it impossible so everybody can use it.
Bedford is an outer suburban commuter location so it has commuter trains, most of which take 60 minutes to travel just under 50 miles. There are also a few trains that take 40 minutes. Wellingborough is a low volume commuter station that is just under 65 miles form STP, - it has 2tph to and from London on trains that are better than most of the services from Bedford, and they take about 52 minutes for the longer journey. That seems about right to me.
Incidentally, using that simple legal split, the WEL STP fare is 56p/mile whereas the BDM STP fare is 60p/mile so Wellinborough travellers are paying less per mile for a faster train.

On splitting - open question: I know gaming the ticketing system is expected in air travel (e.g. Skyscanner) and Trainline and others do this for rail, but should this be the expectation of the average rail user? Does this help get people off the roads and (back) on the train?

Actually, it's not *all* average rail users. This is saying it's OK to expect Wellingborough customers to split but not Bedford. Can somebody explain why it wouldn't be unacceptable to raise Bedford prices to 85p/mile but then, by splitting at Luton, customers can get it back to 60p/mile?

I might agree with the Bedford-Wellingborough comparison if the EMR services didn't stop at Bedford. So whilst Bedford has all the same trains as Wellingborough, it has all all the GTR options too. So, in essence this argument is, "All the additional GTR services from Bedford degrade the average traveller's experience so much that they deserve to pay less".

Capacity and choice can - in a free market - give lower prices. But let's not kid ourselves that this is what's going on in the case of a highly regulated pricing structure. Even the fact that Bedford has a 'Standard Day Return' and Wellingborough a 'Standard Open Return' tells us that today's situation has its roots in the 1980s when, I hope we can agree, things were different.

 

[Mikw]

Oh, i remember - fondly - the £17 Apex return from Leicester to London. Always the same fare as long as it was booked 7 days in advance, can cost over 10 times that now.

 

[JonathanH]

Oh, i remember - fondly - the £17 Apex return from Leicester to London. Always the same fare as long as it was booked 7 days in advance, can cost over 10 times that now.

Even when Midland Mainline first went to single leg pricing of advances in the mid 2000s, the cheapest fare was £6 single in each direction for stations on the whole MML network to London.

 

[AM9]

On splitting - open question: I know gaming the ticketing system is expected in air travel (e.g. Skyscanner) and Trainline and others do this for rail, but should this be the expectation of the average rail user? Does this help get people off the roads and (back) on the train?

As I said, It's a simple split and probably no chance of problems, so those that don't like the through fare should use it.

Actually, it's not *all* average rail users. This is saying it's OK to expect Wellingborough customers to split but not Bedford. Can somebody explain why it wouldn't be unacceptable to raise Bedford prices to 85p/mile but then, by splitting at Luton, customers can get it back to 60p/mile?

Splitting is availavble tio anyone who wants it if they can be bothered. Otherwise, pay the through fare.

I might agree with the Bedford-Wellingborough comparison if the EMR services didn't stop at Bedford. So whilst Bedford has all the same trains as Wellingborough, it has all all the GTR options too. So, in essence this argument is, "All the additional GTR services from Bedford degrade the average traveller's experience so much that they deserve to pay less".

Wellingborough is a relatively quiet station where almost all trains are just two stops from STP and their average speed is about 64mph. Bedford is a much busier station where most of the trains to STP have nine stops to get there, and it takes over an hour so the average speed is about 47mph.

 

[cle]

Splitting is all well and good for the folks on this board etc - but your average person will not know. So they are being penalized for not being able to game the system. Also, what a faff for frequent travellers re ease of purchaing. Stupid stance. And so many tedious apologists on here.

Fix the fares system, so that the phenomenon of splitting doesn't need to exist at all.

 

[InTheEastMids]

As I said, It's a simple split and probably no chance of problems, so those that don't like the through fare should use it.



Splitting is availavble tio anyone who wants it if they can be bothered. Otherwise, pay the through fare.



Wellingborough is a relatively quiet station where almost all trains are just two stops from STP and their average speed is about 64mph. Bedford is a much busier station where most of the trains to STP have nine stops to get there, and it takes over an hour so the average speed is about 47mph.

So to summarise my understanding of your posts:

1. The way to get more people to travel by train is to conceal more affordable prices in things like split tickets that aren't obviously available from a large number of channels (including the EMR app).

2. It is reasonable for the railway to expect people from Wellingborough to understand and seek out split tickets, but people from Bedford shouldn't have to.

3. A 2tph service is better than a 6tph service, even though 2 of the 6 tph are in fact the same trains.

 

[73128]

Historical NSE fares should not determine today's. It might be the reason and history behind them, but it's not rationale for them continuing to be the same.

If we're moving towards more nationalization-lite/not in name, whatever it is - fares should be recalculated and based on mileage/journey time/however it's done - but equally on all the mainlines radiating from London and on non-London fares too. If advance fares are then sold, promotions can be whatever demand and the market needs, but the standard fares should be calibrated so that Wellingborough pays similar to Northampton etc.

You could have loose zoning, to encourage connecting vs railheading - but that is relatively London centric. So perhaps there is that, and then a non-London format which can be far cheaper to encourage local, regional, XC and not-London commuting to the other cities' networks.

like so many other fares, these are capped by the permitted rises on regulated fares and as such it will need GBR and some politicians who don't mind upsetting some rail users (as there will inevitably be both winners and losers (and some neutral perhaps) from a marked revision to the fare arrangements. Sadly now is not the time to say to the Treasury "can we have some subsidy to reduce some of the higher per mile fares e.g. to Wellingborough" - as raising those fares per mile to, say, Luton and Bedford and intermediately seems very unlikely(!).

 

[AM9]

like so many other fares, these are capped by the permitted rises on regulated fares and as such it will need GBR and some politicians who don't mind upsetting some rail users (as there will inevitably be both winners and losers (and some neutral perhaps) from a marked revision to the fare arrangements. Sadly now is not the time to say to the Treasury "can we have some subsidy to reduce some of the higher per mile fares e.g. to Wellingborough" - as raising those fares per mile to, say, Luton and Bedford and intermediately seems very unlikely(!).

I agree, and if the higher default fares can easily be avoided, it's strange saying that it's not fair just because Bedford passengers don't have to do a simple split to get a similar price per mile. If you are a price sensitive passenger, then split, - nobody is going to criticise you for it.The two stations are completely different, - Bedford is a railhead for Thameslink services whereas Wellingborough is a small town station with a quite moderate demand for rail travel, i.e less than a quarter of that of Bedfors in the last 'normal' year's figures.
There are similar differences between fares and services inside the Travelcard zones 1-6 and just outside, but there's no point in claiming that it unfair, because they are different situations, different operators and very different passenger flows.
As far as subsidy goes, EMR already gets a far higher level of support than GTR.

 

[A0wen]

Even when Midland Mainline first went to single leg pricing of advances in the mid 2000s, the cheapest fare was £6 single in each direction for stations on the whole MML network to London.

That was 20 years ago - costs have gone up in the intervening years, so it's a bit unrealistic to expect those fares now.

 

[cle]

I agree, and if the higher default fares can easily be avoided, it's strange saying that it's not fair just because Bedford passengers don't have to do a simple split to get a similar price per mile. If you are a price sensitive passenger, then split, - nobody is going to criticise you for it.The two stations are completely different, - Bedford is a railhead for Thameslink services whereas Wellingborough is a small town station with a quite moderate demand for rail travel, i.e less than a quarter of that of Bedfors in the last 'normal' year's figures.

You missed the point - ordinary people don't know about splitting, splitting is not that widespread or for that matter, that easy to do.

Suggesting 'price sensitive' passengers split is so off the mark in terms of empathy and equity; they're likely to be those same infrequent, or older, or less savvy passengers who wouldn't know the first thing about it.

It's not a solution. It's a bug - and should not exist. It does, of course. But the system should aim to remove that, and also unfair parallels like some of the ones mentioned, or IC/NSE-era hierarchies. After all, I won't be charged more to jump on a 80x train at Paddington to Reading as I will on a slow - which is as it should be.