Is university really right for everyone?

[Phil56]

Reducing the numbers means disproportionately reducing the proportion for the less well off.

It doesn't have to be done by reducing supply, i.e. making Unis smaller. It can be done by reducing demand, i.e. better "education" and guidance for school leavers as to the alternatives, better provision of alternatives (the current growth in apprenticeship schemes is a VERY good step in the right direction), and pressure on employers to find better ways of selecting candidates rather than a lazy tick box "degree or not" to reduce applicant numbers.

We need people to go to Uni for the right reasons, not just because they can't think of anything better, because their school have pushed them into it, because there's an unnecessary requirement from employers that even shop or call centre work "needs" a degree. People from less well off backgrounds and other groups showing historically low Uni attendance should still have the option to go to Uni if it will suit them, and be subsidised as necessary, but alternative options and a proper evaluation of the pros and cons needs to be massively improved.

Likewise, we need more options for school leavers to have the ability to go to Uni a few years later, or even in middle age, so they'd feel less pressure to go at 18 as they do now, for fear of not being in a position to go later in life. I'm sure lots of youngsters who crash and burn at Uni and either leave mid way or get a low degree classification would do a lot better if they could have instead gone later in life having been more mature, more wisdom from age, more experience in life generally.

I do wonder whether the whole point of going to Uni has become lost, and whether rather than it being for academic achievement and self improvement, it's now become simply somewhere for youngsters to learn basic life skills, such as standing on their own two feet, cooking/cleaning for themselves, etc - the kind of things that parents used to teach their kids!

 

[Ediswan]

Either way...IT can be a great career with relatively little academic background.

Or in my case, a mostly irrelevant academic background. Even with a relevant background, what you learned soon becomes out of date. You then have two choices, specialise in a cockroach like COBOL or VMS, or treat learning new technology as part of the day job (sometimes in your own time). I chose the latter.

In my experience, IT is also good at spotting those in admin roles who might be better placed doing something technical.

 

[TheEdge]

I was pushed by a school who considered anyone who doesn't go to university to be a failure.

I regret it every 4 weeks when the SLC take £300 off me to pay for a degree I never use or that I really wanted a decade after I left.

 

[jfollows]

Or in my case, a mostly irrelevant academic background. Even with a relevant background, what you learned soon becomes out of date. You then have two choices, specialise in a cockroach like COBOL or VMS, or treat learning new technology as part of the day job (sometimes in your own time). I chose the latter.

In my experience, IT is also good at spotting those in admin roles who might be better placed doing something technical.

Yes, I agree with this.
I have a Computing Science degree, I went to work for IBM for 24 years, most of what I learned that was relevant to my job I learned from IBM and not from my degree course.
The degree probably broadened my horizons and made me more receptive to new ideas, though.

 

[najaB]

The degree probably broadened my horizons and made me more receptive to new ideas, though.

This. Exactly.

The value of a degree isn't the degree, it's learning the skills that gets you the degree.

 

[jfollows]

I was pushed by a school who considered anyone who doesn't go to university to be a failure.

I regret it every 4 weeks when the SLC take £300 off me to pay for a degree I never use or that I really wanted a decade after I left.

I went to a pushy academic school, ended up in the Maths sixth form, out of seven of us I think five went to Oxford or Cambridge, one was too young and the last said he wanted to be an accountant and didn't want to go to university - good for him, I don't know what he ended up doing. Worked for me, but the ethos was almost if you didn't try for Oxbridge you were a failure, let along "just" going to university. I'm not complaining, but it wouldn't work for everyone, you should see how badly I cooked when I lived on my own at first, for example, a bit broader education would have done me no harm.

 

[dakta]

I regret it every 4 weeks when the SLC take £300 off me

I feel the pain! University education does have it's place but please think it through

 

[JohnMcL7]

I've stuck it out for 3 years but frankly I disagree with the sentiment that it's the 'best time of your life' and that it's where everyone has to go and excels at what they do.

I used to hear people saying about both school and university being the best days of your life and I found it genuinely terrifying because while I was quite an academic person I'd hated school with the relentless bullying and I didn't enjoy university at all. I don't drink and 20 years ago that was a real disadvantage so I often felt quite isolated and struggled with the constant pressure which at the end nearly pushed me over the edge. If that was going to be the best times of my life then that just suggested life was going to be absolutely horrible however it's now almost 20 years and I've had much better times since then. I would like to be able to speak to my younger self to tell me to relax and not worry so much about university, it's going to work out fine.

It's difficult to assess the impact of my degree as it was in IT (AI and CS) since technology is always changed so fast and the university teaching is quite dry and theoretical, I've learnt a huge amount through experience working since then. However I think it is good to get a fundamental understanding of how technology works which has helped at work and I think I was best doing university straight after school while I was still in that mindset. One of the tasks at university was being split into groups of 10-12, given a project requirement then worked on that full time for weeks to spec the project and then deliver it which was very useful as it's much more like real world work but there should have been much more like that.

 

[westv]

I was pushed by a school who considered anyone who doesn't go to university to be a failure.

I regret it every 4 weeks when the SLC take £300 off me to pay for a degree I never use or that I really wanted a decade after I left.

£300 a month? That sounds like you might have a decent salary. Did your degree play no part in you getting that if you do?

 

[patrick.hearn3]

An interesting question - and one that touches me a little since I'm strongly thinking about returning to University (aged 50+) to take up studying again.

I went for the first time as an undergraduate at 50+ and went cold turkey, living in halls and shared student accommodation. I'm so glad I did it, and found it entirely positive.

 

[GusB]

I felt quite pressured to go to university. There was the fact that I was going to be the first in the family to go, then there was the expectation from my teachers. I ended up repeating my first year and then dropped out with nothing to show for the two years I was there.

There were a couple factors which I hadn't really considered until recently. Firstly, I became very depressed halfway through the year; I didn't adjust too well from being away from home. Secondly, there were quite a lot of "posh boys" in my classes who made life quite uncomfortable, and I'd never really addressed that it was outright bullying at the time.

If I had the ability to turn the clock back, I think I'd probably have skipped my sixth year at school and opted to go to my local college for a year or two. The chances are that I'd have come away with at least an HNC, which would have opened some doors in the jobs market at the time. I'd probably have taken a year out at some point too.

The main issue is that plenty of entry level junior jobs do ask for a degree these days (or at the very least will filter out those who don't have one). If you start more strictly restricted who can and who can't go to university, you put those who don't go a huge disadvantage in the jobs market. You can (rightly) argue that if as many people didn't go to uni they wouldn't be able to do that, but sadly the ship has sailed and we are now in a situation where the kind of jobs my father went into at age 16 now ask for a degree! We are starting to see that ease up a little, plenty of companies are talking about their apprenticeships schemes and even for jobs that had the university route as the common way in we are seeing some alternatives (E.g. coding bootcamps instead of a Computer Science degree), but it will be a while before people who don't have a degree aren't severally disadvantaged when it comes to getting jobs.

I agree with this. After I dropped out, the first thing I did was (literally) get a McJob. Once I'd escaped from there I did a spell with a large supermarket where they made various noises about promotions and management training, until they restructured and the management training scheme suddenly became the graduate training scheme. I found myself doing well at competency interviews, but being trumped by external candidates who had degrees - for a supervisor position.

In effect, what's happening now is that you're getting so many graduates who can't find a job in their chosen field, they're applying for "second best" and either leaving as soon as they do find a job in their preferred field or, if they stay, they end up being utterly useless at the job/disillusioned. All the while you've got capable people on the bottom rung who are being held back because they don't have the right bit of paper.

 

[Scotrail12]

I also don't understand the idea that it's where you are guaranteed to find lifelong friends. Certainly not for me with classes - it's luck of the draw as to whether or not you gel with the vibe somewhere and whether or not you get on with the people in the class. My French class felt like being sent to coventry, a small handful of 'lads' lad' type guys who kept to themselves and then a majority of girls. I didn't 'fit in' at all, actually felt like more of an outcast than in high school.

Obviously some do clubs to meet people but not been an option for a good chunk of my uni tenure.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Obviously some do clubs to meet people but not been an option for a good chunk of my uni tenure.

I did get lifelong friends from a society, I'm not in touch with anyone from my course at all. Why isn't it an option for you to join one? They are available for pretty much any pursuit.

 

[najaB]

Obviously some do clubs to meet people but not been an option for a good chunk of my uni tenure.

I did get lifelong friends from a society, I'm not in touch with anyone from my course at all. Why isn't it an option for you to join one?

I presume the 'clubs' being referred to were nightclubs, many of which have been closed for a large part of the last few years.

 

[TheEdge]

£300 a month? That sounds like you might have a decent salary. Did your degree play no part in you getting that if you do?

Train driver, didn't help in the slightest.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I presume the 'clubs' being referred to were nightclubs, many of which have been closed for a large part of the last few years.

Ah, I assumed the OP meant student societies. I really would strongly recommend these - you're much more likely to get lifelong friends that way due to shared interests and because many of them are quite small and so quite close-knit. They aren't generally just drinking clubs like US fraternities are.

Certainly any student who doesn't "live in" will benefit hugely from the connections they provide.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Ah, I assumed the OP meant student societies. I really would strongly recommend these - you're much more likely to get lifelong friends that way due to shared interests and because many of them are quite small and so quite close-knit. They aren't generally just drinking clubs like US fraternities are.

I also read it as student societies. However, it's unlikely that many of them would have been meeting during Covid either! (Other than online which doesn't really give the same opportunity for making friends)

I went for the first time as an undergraduate at 50+ and went cold turkey, living in halls and shared student accommodation. I'm so glad I did it, and found it entirely positive.

Thanks, that's good to hear. What did you go to study out of interest?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I also read it as student societies. However, it's unlikely that many of them would have been meeting during Covid either! (Other than online which doesn't really give the same opportunity for making friends)

The online stuff isn't as good as in person but gets you "in the door" for when things reopened. Still worth it rather than sitting alone in halls. It wasn't an easy period to be a student, but these things did exist.

I did however more refer to current students. If you're a student and you're lonely now, go join a society. There are loads of them for all sorts of interests and it would be hard not to make friends in one.

 

[najaB]

I also read it as student societies. However, it's unlikely that many of them would have been meeting during Covid either!

My thinking was that you "join" interest-based clubs, and "do" night clubs, but it's been pretty much the same for both.

 

[westv]

Train driver, didn't help in the slightest.

I'm sure it kept you on track though.

 

[Simon11]

I finished my university degree course 10 years ago. The course was honestly a waste of time and so easy compared to A Levels (many exams were multiple choice questions). What was well worth it, was doing a placement year for a whole year, of which I did in the rail industry. As soon as I finished my exam, I went straight into my ideal FY role in rail management and never looked back.

I made the choice to live at home, thus I saved a huge amount of money, could keep my PT job paying £5-7k pa but still got involved with many uni clubs. I consider myself lucky to have only paid £3k pa, so came out of university with savings, rather than debt.

Over the last five years, I have seen so many young people finishing their degree, having no clue what to do and take the easy option to do a master. More debt, and still no work experience.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I finished my university degree course 10 years ago. The course was honestly a waste of time and so easy compared to A Levels (many exams were multiple choice questions). What was well worth it, was doing a placement year for a whole year, of which I did in the rail industry. As soon as I finished my exam, I went straight into my ideal FY role in rail management and never looked back.

I made the choice to live at home, thus I saved a huge amount of money, could keep my PT job paying £5-7k pa but still got involved with many uni clubs. I consider myself lucky to have only paid £3k pa, so came out of university with savings, rather than debt.

Over the last five years, I have seen so many young people finishing their degree, having no clue what to do and take the easy option to do a master. More debt, and still no work experience.

To be fair, student loans are not real debt because it's impossible to default on them - if you stop earning, you stop paying. They are effectively a graduate tax which just "times out" after a given period. The actual balance is of no relevance to most people.

 

[westv]

To be fair, student loans are not real debt because it's impossible to default on them - if you stop earning, you stop paying. They are effectively a graduate tax which just "times out" after a given period. The actual balance is of no relevance to most people.

It's just a pity that the media insist on calling it "debt" which it isn't technically. It's as much "debt" as the debt of someone paying 20% more tax on income over £50k

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's just a pity that the media insist on calling it "debt" which it isn't technically. It's as much "debt" as the debt of someone paying 20% more tax on income over £50k

It would very much help if it was simplified to an actual graduate tax, to be honest, i.e. a simple "it's N% of income above £X for Y years, collected via the income tax system". That's sort of what it is anyway, but making it a nominal loan increases the administrative cost of it and scares people.

 

[Simon11]

To be fair, student loans are not real debt because it's impossible to default on them - if you stop earning, you stop paying. They are effectively a graduate tax which just "times out" after a given period. The actual balance is of no relevance to most people.

But for people who do pay them over the course of their career have to face paying high interest rates too on their uni debt which I find crazy!

Doing some research, interest rates are heading to 12% for student loans! They should be 0 or just a few percent.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But for people who do pay them over the course of their career have to face paying high interest rates too on their uni debt which I find crazy!

Many people don't fully settle one before it "times out", so the interest rate is largely irrelevant. It is de-facto just a tax, and would be much easier if it actually was one.

 

[najaB]

Doing some research, interest rates are heading to 12% for student loans! They should be 0 or just a few percent.

How would a zero-percent loan be any different to government just fully funding University places?

 

[Bletchleyite]

How would a zero-percent loan be any different to government just fully funding University places?

Because the capital is paid back?

As I said I'd just go for a graduate tax (assuming we can't reduce numbers sufficiently to make fully funding it including accommodation grants viable). N% on income above £X for Y years following graduation. Dead simple, and no false impression of it being debt, and if you go into very low paid work because you can't get anything better or are choosing to go into the arts or similar then you pay nowt.

 

[Scotrail12]

Honestly there's nothing I'd love to do more than leave this stupid uni and never return. It just feels like I've never found my stride there with the courses or people plus one class is outright detrimental to my mental health.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Honestly there's nothing I'd love to do more than leave this stupid uni and never return. It just feels like I've never found my stride there with the courses or people plus one class is outright detrimental to my mental health.

Then maybe you should consider a change of course or indeed withdrawing entirely. It is a valid option.