EMR Class 360's

[43096]

The main contributor was Greater Anglia’s poor maintenance prior to them being released, which seems to have continued under EMR.

GA never had them at the level of 10 sets available from 21, though.

 

[43066]

Is that what they said it was?

Yes that raised a wry smile .

 

[baz962]

Yes that raised a wry smile .

Rumour has it that you never smile

 

[43066]

Rumour has it that you never smile

Certainly not when I’m on the job you’re on tonight.

Hope the pass train is on time or you’ll be in a taxi… The last train to London always runs…

 

[3973EXL]

VSTP 24/05 5Q81 0630 Eastleigh Works - Northampton Emd 47749 360113
https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:41549/2022-05-24/detailed

 

[fgwrich]

Yep. 8 units completed (101-104/107/109/114/121), two units in (113/116) and 11 still to go in (105/106/108/110-112/115/117-120).

With yesterdays changeover, we're now on 10 units complete (101-104/107/109/113/114/116/121), 1 in the works (108) and 10 to go.

 

[43096]

With yesterdays changeover, we're now on 10 units complete (101-104/107/109/113/114/116/121), 1 in the works (108) and 10 to go.

Two in the works: 120 went down when 116 came out, I believe.

 

[spotify95]

May 24, 2022 - 17:57 from WEL to STP was STILL a 4 car, short formation unit! What is actually going on with EMR's Connect service...

I still remember the promise of 12 cars in the peak. I'd class about 6pm as peak; even though it was in the counter peak direction, it must have left London near to peak time as a 4 car, as it goes up to Corby and then back down to St Pancras again.

In my opinion, EMR should have bought more trains, or trains of a better quality: there are obviously underlying issues with the 360s that make them so unreliable, you can't have 12 units (out of a fleet of 21 units) in good working order. I'm pretty sure you only need 12 units for full 8-car formations - it seems like (at least in my opinion) that EMR should have purchased the Class 360/2's at the same time as the 360/1's, or otherwise should have purchased a different class of train (that hadn't been hammered to death along the Greater Anglia routes).

If 8 cars were a requirement (and not 12) then it would have been better to just refurbish the HST Mk3's (original EMT, not the replacement LNER ones), so they were PRM compliant, and use those (with a suitable locomotive - or even with the HST Power cars!) - they didn't seem to have such a problem that less than 50% of them were usable at any given time.

I still think that the 360s on the EMR Connect service was not the greatest choice, and that other options would have been more suitable. The 222s are being replaced by 810 bi-mode units in the future. Why not have the entire Intercity/Connect fleet as 810 bi-modes? It would certainly offer more consistency and reliability than what we have now...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 May 2022 ==

GA never had them at the level of 10 sets available from 21, though.

Indeed. I literally just commented on how the 17:57 yesterday (from WEL to STP) was a short formation - you only need 12 units available for 8 car running - if there's only 10 units available, where are the other 11?

In addition, the aforementioned 17:57 departed Wellingborough at 18:03 due to a slightly delayed Intercity service. I still believe that the 4-track line upgrades should have included speccing the Slow lines at the same, or slightly less, linespeeds than the Fasts, so that in these circumstances, the 360 can go down the Slow lines at an acceptable speed (say 90mph or 100mph) rather than get delayed due to a delayed Intercity service.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 May 2022 ==

Saturday only had 9 units available, this dropped to 8 after I found faults with the set and they decided to pull that one out.
Yes they really are that bad.

In that case, they'd have been better off with the HST's/MK3s, or even purchasing surplus 90s/91s and Mk4s from LNER if they wanted to go electric with the Connect service...

 

[Agent_Squash]

There is nothing wrong with 360s as a train. The problem is the poor maintenance.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

There is nothing wrong with 360s as a train. The problem is the poor maintenance.

And an unacceptable interior state.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And an unacceptable interior state.

And the promises. The 3+2 interior isn't bad so far as 3+2 interiors go, but EMR promised 2+2 FISA LEAN seating and 2+1 in 1st. I'd be miffed about that not being done too; if they weren't going to do it they shouldn't have promised it.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

And the promises. The 3+2 interior isn't bad so far as 3+2 interiors go, but EMR promised 2+2 FISA LEAN seating and 2+1 in 1st. I'd be miffed about that not being done too; if they weren't going to do it they shouldn't have promised it.

Yes, quite right. Though that goes for many of EMR (and SWR, actually)’s promises.

With this month’s Modern Railways stating that EMR plan to hire for the 170 refurbishment (credit for this goes to the forumer in the relevant thread who quoted this for us), there is some hope that they will get whoever carries out the 170 refurbishment to do the 360s also. After all, in simple terms, they’re similar in terms of layout and I imagine the same interiors for Connect and Regional would be ideal.

 

[swt_passenger]

Surely a full 12 car service would be achievable with 18 from 21 units. That would be 85% utilisation and is fairly typical for modern EMUs and has been achieved for some time with other Desiro UK EMU variants. I doubt a larger fleet would have been accepted by DfT, why would such poor availability have been predictable?

Also, DfT would have required EMUs of some sort to be used to justify the planned Corby electrification, the earlier suggestion they should have used modernised HSTs would never have been proposed by the incoming franchisee, it would have made no sense.

 

[Hairy Bear]

There is nothing wrong with 360s as a train. The problem is the poor maintenance.

No, there unreliable now, we are getting regular component failure, sometimes major. Its not so much as poor maintenance as lack of access to it.

 

[grumpyoldman01]

From Modern Railways, June issue (summary):

As well as stating that EMR hope to enter into a contract "soon" for the refurbishment of the class 360s, the article acknowledges that availability has been "challenging, principally due to maintenance difficulties"; light maintenance is presently undertaken at Bedford Cauldwell depot, but for heavy maintenance the units have to be hauled to Siemens Kings Heath depot at Northampton. EMR "is hoping to expand facilities at Bedford Cauldwell, including provision of an extra road for maintenance, which should improve availability and reliability of the fleet"

 

[aleggatta]

Out of curiosity, how many roads are available at Caudwell and what tasks can be undertaken compared to thameslink days? I’m aware it was effectively turned into a cleaning shed after TL removed maintenance facilities, but not sure what happened after EMR moved in.

 

[Agent_Squash]

No, there unreliable now, we are getting regular component failure, sometimes major. Its not so much as poor maintenance as lack of access to it.

Every other Desiro fleet in the UK tops the reliability charts. There’s something seriously wrong with the maintenance scheduling if they’re not - they are solid, reliable units everywhere else.

 

[Trainbike46]

Every other Desiro fleet in the UK tops the reliability charts. There’s something seriously wrong with the maintenance scheduling if they’re not - they are solid, reliable units everywhere else.

Further to this, the 360s were some of the most reliable EMUs while they were with GA

 

[Class360/1]

Further to this, the 360s were some of the most reliable EMUs while they were with GA

They won a golden spanner, a couple of months before they were ran into the sand.

 

[43055]

Out of curiosity, how many roads are available at Caudwell and what tasks can be undertaken compared to thameslink days? I’m aware it was effectively turned into a cleaning shed after TL removed maintenance facilities, but not sure what happened after EMR moved in.

Looking at google maps there looks to be 5 roads that go into a shed and 3 outside roads.

 

[F Great Eastern]

They won a golden spanner, a couple of months before they were ran into the sand.

They won the Golden Spanner in 2019 achieving MTIN of around 84k.

All of the Greater Anglia EMU stock suffer significant downturns in MTIN in the following period which was supposed to be the twilight days of the legacy rolling stock, but then COVID and the delays happened.

- Class 317/6 (down from 12.5k to 10.8k)
- Class 317/3/5/7/8 (down from 12.4k to 9.6k)
- Class 321 (down from 28.5k to 19.5k)
- Class 360 (down from 84k to 18k)
- Class 379 (down from 62k to 38k)

 

[43066]

Class 360 (down from 84k to 18k)

That’s quite some decline!

 

[F Great Eastern]

From Modern Railways, June issue (summary):

As well as stating that EMR hope to enter into a contract "soon" for the refurbishment of the class 360s, the article acknowledges that availability has been "challenging, principally due to maintenance difficulties"; light maintenance is presently undertaken at Bedford Cauldwell depot, but for heavy maintenance the units have to be hauled to Siemens Kings Heath depot at Northampton. EMR "is hoping to expand facilities at Bedford Cauldwell, including provision of an extra road for maintenance, which should improve availability and reliability of the fleet"

Probably part of the problem, when the 360s were at their highest for reliability they were maintained fully by Siemens on a dedicated road in Ilford. Probably they should try and do something similar at Bedford, but that'll probably cost Abellio ££££ so probably they won't do it.

 

[Nottingham59]

That’s quite some decline!

Sounds like good engineering design: everthing wears out after the same time!

 

[43066]

Sounds like good engineering design: everthing wears out after the same time!

Just in time for EMR to take them over .

 

[F Great Eastern]

That’s quite some decline!

Indeed, both the 360 and 379 fleets, that have been very reliable for years, suddenly take a massive decline in reliability in the period just before an operator no longer needs either of them.

Also the fact that the 317/321s saw a fair fall in percentage terms as well even if from a lower base, shows the same direction of travel in it's later days. If you look at the above figures, it's no wonder there were so many short forms on GA in late 2019 and early 2020 across all EMU services.

 

[westcoaster]

Probably part of the problem, when the 360s were at their highest for reliability they were maintained fully by Siemens on a dedicated road in Ilford. Probably they should try and do something similar at Bedford, but that'll probably cost Abellio ££££ so probably they won't do it.

Siemens carry out all maintenance in house at Cauldwell.

 

[F Great Eastern]

Siemens carry out all maintenance in house at Cauldwell.

Wasn't aware, sorry. Do the staff there have any historical experience maintaining the 360s or similar fleets?

Just wonder if they recruited new people and they're taking time to get up to speed on things?

 

[Pumbaa]

Most of the team came from Ilford where they were previously based. Almost all of the issues have their root in the fact that the heavy maintenance is carried out off route with no ad hoc access, and light maintenance plays second fiddle to GTR who retain overall control of the shed for 700s.

Worth pointing out this is the hand that any winning bidder would have been dealt with, following decision to de scope MML electrification.

 

[Hairy Bear]

Over half had serious faults on them when they were brought over to us. It was tricky finding a single set without a fault that we train on. Even now every single set has an a/c fault on as a minimum .
And no the Siemens staff are not new starters, their very experienced, but overwhelmed with the workload.