What About Mega-Train First Class ?

[Butts]

Does anyone think a logical extension to the Mega-Train "modus operandi" would be to extend the availablility to 1st Class.

Obviously the price would have to be higher but perhaps in proportion to the normal difference in Fares between Standard and First.

The intention is to sell seats in a lot of off peak services that otherwise remain poorly frequented.

Judging by the lack of passengers and empy carriages on most trains conveying 1st Class Carriages during off peak periods this could be a good revenue stream.

Anyone agree ?

 

[Pumbaa]

Part of the First Class selling point is that there aren't many people, and I'm sure some would go further to say that FC Advance tickets are a blight on the face of FC travel as well.

 

[Butts]

Part of the First Class selling point is that there aren't many people, and I'm sure some would go further to say that FC Advance tickets are a blight on the face of FC travel as well.

Surely there is a difference between not many people and four virtually empty carriages on a Pendelino - Voyager you may have a point

 

[MCR247]

But what price would use suggest for each route?

 

[maddeningcrowds]

The business model for first class is based on exclusivity for which people pay a premium. The business model for megatrain is based on bulk selling to people wanting the cheapest possible deal. So no I don't think it is a logical extension.

 

[Butts]

But what price would use suggest for each route?

I'd use the same formula they use for standard class fares "scaled up" to maintain the differential.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The business model for first class is based on exclusivity for which people pay a premium. The business model for megatrain is based on bulk selling to people wanting the cheapest possible deal. So no I don't think it is a logical extension.

What is the business model for 1st Class Advanced tickets that are often as low as a quarter of the price of an Anytime 1st Single ie 75% off

 

[rail-britain]

four virtually empty carriages on a Pendelino

Depends on when you travel
Between Glasgow and Preston the loading is very light, however between Preston and Euston quite often it can be fully booked

However, some of the pricing results in it being empty
A good example was the 16:30 Euston - Preston - Glasgow
I used this quite often on my ALR in 2009 and was surprised how empty it was
Last year I then looked at the fares and the advance availability was very poor

I quite often use the 04:28 Glasgow - Euston
Again, the advance fare on this is very high
However, it is incredibly cheap between Glasgow and Preston

This is a common pricing corridor I find very cheap
As a result I travel to Preston rather than Carlisle
Equally, when travelling to Euston I find splitting at Preston can reduce the cost vastly

 

[MCR247]

I was really surprised at how empty the 1630 was

 

[Butts]

Depends on when you travel
Between Glasgow and Preston the loading is very light, however between Preston and Euston quite often it can be fully booked

However, some of the pricing results in it being empty
A good example was the 16:30 Euston - Preston - Glasgow
I used this quite often on my ALR in 2009 and was surprised how empty it was
Last year I then looked at the fares and the advance availability was very poor

I quite often use the 04:28 Glasgow - Euston
Again, the advance fare on this is very high
However, it is incredibly cheap between Glasgow and Preston

This is a common pricing corridor I find very cheap
As a result I travel to Preston rather than Carlisle
Equally, when travelling to Euston I find splitting at Preston can reduce the cost vastly

I tried splitting at Preston on Edinburgh / Birmingham and it actually worked out dearer in most case.

With advance bookings you would think they would start off cheap increase in price then get cheaper again the day or so before but this does not seem to happen. I have sometimes booked a cheap ADV 1ST Class at a good price checked the day before travel price(shot up) only to get into an empty carriage/s.

Are they expecting loads of "walk on's on the day":roll:

 

[lyesbkz]

What is the business model for 1st Class Advanced tickets that are often as low as a quarter of the price of an Anytime 1st Single ie 75% off

The prices of 1st Advance tickets very quickly increase with demand, and after only a few have sold they'll probably be out of the price range of the people looking just to travel cheaply in 1st, so in my opinion the carriages are still likely to be empty because only a few would have sold per service at about 75% off before it becomes uninteresting for the likes of Megatrain users looking for cheap fares.

 

[Butts]

The prices of 1st Advance tickets very quickly increase with demand, and after only a few have sold they'll probably be out of the price range of the people looking just to travel cheaply in 1st, so in my opinion the carriages are still likely to be empty because only a few would have sold per service at about 75% off before it becomes uninteresting for the likes of Megatrain users looking for cheap fares.

So why all the empty 1st Class Carriages - there can't be much demand !!

 

[Failed Unit]

I was really surprised at how empty the 1630 was

Yes that is definately a headline time train rather than one people want to use. Very empty north of Preston.

VTs pricing doesn't help they are not keen of filling it. Where I live I can use both east and west coast. In first class virgin is normally at least £40 more expensive, never cheaper. Well you have to pay for the food don't you.

I wonder if it would be more used if it left at say 1730. I hope east coasts fast services gets more passengers when it starts. But there isn't is something wrong when you advertise a super fast time and no one can aford to use it!

 

[route:oxford]

Does anyone think a logical extension to the Mega-Train "modus operandi" would be to extend the availablility to 1st Class.

Obviously the price would have to be higher but perhaps in proportion to the normal difference in Fares between Standard and First.

The intention is to sell seats in a lot of off peak services that otherwise remain poorly frequented.

Judging by the lack of passengers and empy carriages on most trains conveying 1st Class Carriages during off peak periods this could be a good revenue stream.

Anyone agree ?

Megatrain is great, especially if you benefit from joining the service at the starting point (for me usually Birmingham or Edinburgh/Glasgow) as it doesn't come with a seat reservation.

As a passenger, I could definitely see the benefit of a Megatrain ticket being available for first class travel. As an operator though, perhaps not. On a Voyager, selling a handful of standard class "Megatrain" tickets for a service means that there is a 1 in 45 chance of a full paying passenger not getting a seat for their journey. Selling just 1 first "Megatrain" ticket would result in a 1 in 25 chance of a premium customer not getting a seat.

On the other hand...

For services that are "off-peak" for their entire journey and are operated by Pendolino, it's a shame that Virgin don't offer a "Standard Plus" service on weekdays in the "spare" first class coach. £15 extra when booked in advance or £20 on the day - with complimentary tea/coffee & biscuit as well as free internet. I'd use it.

 

[Failed Unit]

So why all the empty 1st Class Carriages - there can't be much demand !!

I have asked that myself on the Edinburgh - Birmingham route. I have seen the 0652 ex-Edinburgh service empty in first class all the way to Preston. No AP tickets available (but I was booking 4 weeks before). For what you get extra I could never justify the full fare on that route.

One interesting idea MML had in the early years of the franchise was that people with open returns could travel in first for no extra cost off-peak. It was a nice touch. I am sure most people the opens probably pay more than the average AP first customer. I guess they never kept it on as people that buy opens tend to have no choice so it wasn't really an incentive to spend more. No-one would leave 30 minutes earlier just to travel on a peak service when a saver is half the price.

 

[GodAtum]

What I'd wish for is weekend first on train upgrades as I only use 1st if I cannot find a seat in standard.

 

[Failed Unit]

What I'd wish for is weekend first on train upgrades as I only use 1st if I cannot find a seat in standard.

Again it would be nice if this was available on weekdays off peak. When an off peak return to Edinburgh is now over £200 I am sure people would pay another £20 to upgrade to 1st. Again may APs in first cost a lot less. Saying that an off peak first exists anyway.

 

[Butts]

Yes that is definately a headline time train rather than one people want to use. Very empty north of Preston.

VTs pricing doesn't help they are not keen of filling it. Where I live I can use both east and west coast. In first class virgin is normally at least £40 more expensive, never cheaper. Well you have to pay for the food don't you.

I wonder if it would be more used if it left at say 1730. I hope east coasts fast services gets more passengers when it starts. But there isn't is something wrong when you advertise a super fast time and no one can aford to use it!

For me going to Birmingham West coast is so much better not just the superior Virgin service and freebies compared to XC but more importantly the speed.

It's much easier to get a £57.50 XC 1st Advanced Single rather than the "hallowed" £60 Virgin One - rare as hens teeth that super ticket !!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Again it would be nice if this was available on weekdays off peak. When an off peak return to Edinburgh is now over £200 I am sure people would pay another £20 to upgrade to 1st. Again may APs in first cost a lot less. Saying that an off peak first exists anyway.

Quite right - what about Weekday First ......

Mind you at the moment you can't upgrade to Weekend First with a "beggars ticket" ie advanced standard.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Megatrain is great, especially if you benefit from joining the service at the starting point (for me usually Birmingham or Edinburgh/Glasgow) as it doesn't come with a seat reservation.

As a passenger, I could definitely see the benefit of a Megatrain ticket being available for first class travel. As an operator though, perhaps not. On a Voyager, selling a handful of standard class "Megatrain" tickets for a service means that there is a 1 in 45 chance of a full paying passenger not getting a seat for their journey. Selling just 1 first "Megatrain" ticket would result in a 1 in 25 chance of a premium customer not getting a seat.

On the other hand...

For services that are "off-peak" for their entire journey and are operated by Pendolino, it's a shame that Virgin don't offer a "Standard Plus" service on weekdays in the "spare" first class coach. £15 extra when booked in advance or £20 on the day - with complimentary tea/coffee & biscuit as well as free internet. I'd use it.

You could allocate a couple of tickets on each train (Voyager) for your scheme without much danger.

Forget the tea and biscuits - I want the whole works (greedy sod)

The way it works at the moment if you are lucky enough to get a £60 ADV 1st from Edinburgh to Birmingham (1852 Mon-Thurs is best bet) the carriage is normally so empty all the steward has time to do is ply you with free food and ale

 

[Failed Unit]

When I last used Edinburgh to Birmingham in 1st class they didnt have a steward in 1st until Preston. That was the main reason I stopped using it. I thought to myself what am I paying extra for a soggy microwaved bacon roll I must collect myself. May as well sit in coach D and buy myself a decent bacon roll at the station with the money I save.

Virgin could offer lower price 1st or increase the quota of the £60 tickets. They don't so they must be happy with 1st beign nearly empty. Contrast this with east coast and 1st loadings on the Edinburgh route are not bad

 

[Butts]

When I last used Edinburgh to Birmingham in 1st class they didnt have a steward in 1st until Preston. That was the main reason I stopped using it. I thought to myself what am I paying extra for a soggy microwaved bacon roll I must collect myself. May as well sit in coach D and buy myself a decent bacon roll at the station with the money I save.

Virgin could offer lower price 1st or increase the quota of the £60 tickets. They don't so they must be happy with 1st beign nearly empty. Contrast this with east coast and 1st loadings on the Edinburgh route are not bad

That would put a dampener on things - I have been lucky so far on the 1852-still if I'd only paid £60 "Beggars can't be choosers"

Are East Coast 1st even emptier than Virgin then ?

 

[Failed Unit]

That would put a dampener on things - I have been lucky so far on the 1852-still if I'd only paid £60 "Beggars can't be choosers"

Are East Coast 1st even emptier than Virgin then ?

No east coast tend to be much busier all day in 1st. I have boarded at Darlington many times and had to search for a seat when heading north. National Express did lose a lot of custom compared to GNER but loadings are increasing again. Not sure about the Leeds routes loadings.

 

[Butts]

No east coast tend to be much busier all day in 1st. I have boarded at Darlington many times and had to search for a seat when heading north. National Express did lose a lot of custom compared to GNER but loadings are increasing again. Not sure about the Leeds routes loadings.

Blimey that's suprising considering the meagre "tea and bicuits on offer" for free -even XC cough up a bit more than that

Mind you did I read somewhere East Coast are upping the freebies soon - wonder if the fares will follow !!

 

[Failed Unit]

Probably - no such thing as free food!

But the freebie thing is a personal thing. I prefer to pay for stuff if I want it, so I am not sure about east coast new offer. Remember however many of east coasts tickets have food included in the such as the Scottish exec. Also east coast offer very well priced AP tickets which helps loadings.

I often feel let down by Virgin as the have include food in the price you feel a bit annoyed when you don't get any, or have to get it yourself. Many at work are also annoyed the difference in service quality between a voyager and a pendo. The soon find out to avoid the voyagers were possible in first.

 

[John @ home]

No east coast tend to be much busier all day in 1st.

Blimey that's surprising

All TOCs with First Class accommodation have suffered revenue loss from the ending of First Class travel throughout the public sector. I believe that full-fare First Class revenue continues to decline as contracts placed by the public sector are rolled out including a provision that First Class travel will not be used.

This demands an innovative marketing approach from TOCs. I think East Coast have been best at this. See, for example, their Scottish Executive Package which charges £199 for a return from central Scotland to London, including First Class Lounge access, a First Class seat in each direction, one 3-course meal and Zone 1-2 Underground travel. Crucially, the type printed on the ticket is Standard.

 

[Butts]

Probably - no such thing as free food!

But the freebie thing is a personal thing. I prefer to pay for stuff if I want it, so I am not sure about east coast new offer. Remember however many of east coasts tickets have food included in the such as the Scottish exec. Also east coast offer very well priced AP tickets which helps loadings.

I often feel let down by Virgin as the have include food in the price you feel a bit annoyed when you don't get any, or have to get it yourself. Many at work are also annoyed the difference in service quality between a voyager and a pendo. The soon find out to avoid the voyagers were possible in first.

I have found Voyagers to provide much better service if there is a Steward -this is due to the fact they only have one carriage to look after and they are based in it and hence come round a lot.Probably better post breakfast as well.

On a Pendelino unless you are in K by the Kitchen you are lucky if you get more than one run !!

 

[MCR247]

I got loads from London - Glasgow the 1630 and 57

 

[Butts]

All TOCs with First Class accommodation have suffered revenue loss from the ending of First Class travel throughout the public sector. I believe that full-fare First Class revenue continues to decline as contracts placed by the public sector are rolled out including a provision that First Class travel will not be used.

This demands an innovative marketing approach from TOCs. I think East Coast have been best at this. See, for example, their Scottish Executive Package which charges £199 for a return from central Scotland to London, including First Class Lounge access, a First Class seat in each direction, one 3-course meal and Zone 1-2 Underground travel. Crucially, the type printed on the ticket is Standard.

If thats Standard Class what does the equivalent 1st Class get - a hotel and massage thrown in - talk about "Artistic Licence" - still good if you can get it through on the ex's.

 

[Failed Unit]

I use that ticket a lot. To me it is the perfect ticket. I rarely change my times outward so don't mind the AP element of it for that direction. The flexible return is very good and even better it is now cheaper than an off peak return. It certainly has help increase first class loadings from Edinburgh.

The only time I was caught out once was when I returned on the 1500 which doesn't even have at seat dining. But that isn't the tickets fault.

 

[Butts]

I got loads from London - Glasgow the 1630 and 57

Two Ciders
Three Double scotches
Two Sandwiches
Two Packets Crisps
Two Coffees
Two Packets Pretzels
Oh and a Bannana

1852 Edinburgh-Wolverhampton

 

[Failed Unit]

If thats Standard Class what does the equivalent 1st Class get - a hotel and massage thrown in - talk about "Artistic Licence" - still good if you can get it through on the ex's.

I think that is is reason to exist some companies would have a fit if you submitted a 1st class ticket. Why did you buy a 1st? Because it was cheaper than the standard by £10 and included a meal so I have save you about £30. Your fired you cant use 1st ever.

 

[Greenback]

First class fares and offers certainly need a shake up and more innovation. The Anytime fares are way too high for almost everyoen and the numbe rof expense users will have declined in the recession.

There ar esome good ideas around in these sort of threads, like those mooted by Failed Unit and routexford above, but as someone who is not a supporter of the megatrain concept, I would not like to see it extended in any way!