Crossrail - operating discussion and opening day 24th May

[James H]

Today's extra closure counterbalances the Sunday operation last week for the Jubilee

 

[jon0844]

The lift links the Thameslink southbound platform to the Elizabeth line directly, and the escalator links the Thameslink northbound platform to the Elizabeth line directly.

Are they planning to install validators along the platform (like the southbound side) so you can tap out on the platform before switching to a paper ticket/The Key etc?

It is a bit inconvenient to go up a further escalator to tap out, then go back down.

 

[JonathanH]

Are they planning to install validators along the platform (like the southbound side) so you can tap out on the platform before switching to a paper ticket/The Key etc?

It is a bit inconvenient to go up a further escalator to tap out, then go back down.

It is a relatively short term issue as more passengers will be using Oyster / Contactless in 2024. Making passengers go to the exit is better for the operator in terms of potential fare evasion.

 

[jon0844]

It is a relatively short term issue as more passengers will be using Oyster / Contactless in 2024. Making passengers go to the exit is better for the operator in terms of potential fare evasion.

Contactless is being extended (but not as far as hoped - like Cambridge/Brighton), and I'd argue that a lot of people switching to Thameslink may be going far beyond Oyster and wherever Contactless ends up working to.. plus of course there are Thameslink only tickets, and users preferring to use The Key and Oyster/Contactless separately.

Tapping out on the platform southbound is very useful, for those changing from TL to LUL - so I don't see why it wouldn't be beneficial for the other direction. Going up, tapping out then not leaving just leaves the gate open for someone else to leave without a ticket! Fare evasion is more effectively managed through onboard checks.

Also, why is 2024 significant for the number of people using Oyster or Contactless? Is that when Oyster is going to work like Contactless and potentially be 'unlimited' in distance? Even if that is the case, there will still be people switching - and 2024 is also quite a long time. Even just one validator at the base of the escalator (on the TL platform level) would suffice.

 

[Watershed]

Contactless is being extended (but not as far as hoped - like Cambridge/Brighton), and I'd argue that a lot of people switching to Thameslink may be going far beyond Oyster and wherever Contactless ends up working to.. plus of course there are Thameslink only tickets, and users preferring to use The Key and Oyster/Contactless separately.

Tapping out on the platform southbound is very useful, for those changing from TL to LUL - so I don't see why it wouldn't be beneficial for the other direction. Going up, tapping out then not leaving just leaves the gate open for someone else to leave without a ticket! Fare evasion is more effectively managed through onboard checks.

Also, why is 2024 significant for the number of people using Oyster or Contactless? Is that when Oyster is going to work like Contactless and potentially be 'unlimited' in distance? Even if that is the case, there will still be people switching - and 2024 is also quite a long time. Even just one validator at the base of the escalator (on the TL platform level) would suffice.

TfL has been awarded the contract to expand the availability of PAYG to cover (roughly speaking) the London TravelWatch area, nominally by May 2024. But as you say, this won't cover Cambridge or Brighton.

 

[jon0844]

TfL has been awarded the contract to expand the availability of PAYG to cover (roughly speaking) the London TravelWatch area, nominally by May 2024. But as you say, this won't cover Cambridge or Brighton.

It's a shame, as that was the aspiration not that long ago - and it's sad it has been scaled back, for now at least.

 

[spinba11]

The lift links the Thameslink southbound platform to the Elizabeth line directly, and the escalator links the Thameslink northbound platform to the Elizabeth line directly.

Whenever people (who are able to go up the stairs and down the escalator) take the shortcut via the lift PLEASE spare a thought for people like me who can’t uses escalators who have no choice but to go up to the ticket hall level and back down to access the northbound TL platform!!

 

[Okowsc]

Whenever people (who are able to go up the stairs and down the escalator) take the shortcut via the lift PLEASE spare a thought for people like me who can’t uses escalators who have no choice but to go up to the ticket hall level and back down to access the northbound TL platform!!

^ this, the UK's rail network isn't exactly good at maintaining accessibility, so lets not ruin it.

 

[Watershed]

Whenever people (who are able to go up the stairs and down the escalator) take the shortcut via the lift PLEASE spare a thought for people like me who can’t uses escalators who have no choice but to go up to the ticket hall level and back down to access the northbound TL platform!!

What are you trying to say with this? That everyone else should unnecessarily inconvenience themselves?

 

[spyinthesky]

What are you trying to say with this? That everyone else should unnecessarily inconvenience themselves?

Only the ones that feel inconvenienced.
As bad as mobility access can be is only magnified by the lack of thought that “everyone else” gives to it.

 

[SynthD]

Fare evasion is more effectively managed through onboard checks.

Do the operators agree?

 

[Okowsc]

What are you trying to say with this? That everyone else should unnecessarily inconvenience themselves?

vs increase the chance disabled people are unable to make the journey's they need to?

 

[Watershed]

vs increase the chance disabled people are unable to make the journey's they need to?

How would they be "unable" to make their journey?

 

[345 050]

Today's extra closure counterbalances the Sunday operation last week for the Jubilee

They have managed to coordinate nicely with closures of all other national rail services from Abbey Wood, very nice. Now Abbey Wood has nothing at all today..... Great bit of thinking there.

Are they actually running any test trains today? Or is this just a day off to compensate the drivers for working last Sunday?

 

[JonathanH]

Are they actually running any test trains today? Or is this just a day off to compensate the drivers for working last Sunday?

There were some class 6 movements in the tunnel earlier today - eg see the signal berth movements with a date of 11/06/2022 here - suggesting engineering access

TrackIT!

However, it also seems that right now (at 1622) a 345 is on the move from Plumstead into Abbey Wood so that might be test running of some sort. There is a SPZ possession in the core.
https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/xrcos

 

[kevin_roche]

I watched the latest episode of 15 billion pound railway on BBC2 last night. Really interesting. Lots of small revelations about the issues that made the railway late. Anyone else see it?

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Yes that was really interesting, I was intrigued by what was said with the disruption when the trains failed and in operation what they intended to happen.

 

[kevin_roche]

Yes that was really interesting, I was intrigued by what was said with the disruption when the trains failed and in operation what they intended to happen.

It was. I remember that day. I watched the whole thing unfold on signalmaps as I was at home all day doing some editing and had it running on my second screen. Interesting to see the software guys reaction.

 

[ScotGG]

I haven’t measured this yet but very interested to see how nearby Plumstead (to the east) and to a lesser extent Woolwich Dockyard (to the west) also fare - these are not far at all from Woolwich and have a much reduced use case now given the very frequent local bus connections to EL (which the buses stop outside). For the vast majority of journeys the EL is now the quicker, more frequent, safer, and cheaper option vs SE. An aside but will be also be very interesting to see if any of the fare evading populations on the SE Metro convert into paying EL users.

Plumstead and Woolwich Dockyard are set to see many new homes in their vicinity soon.

Around 3,000 at Plumstead and 4,000+ near Woolwich Dockyard.

In the long term they'll still be well used stations I predict.
Both do still offer quick links to London Bridge, the City and West End all in 20-30 mins. By the time taking a bus to an Elizabeth Line station then transferring it may not always be worth the hassle depending on destination.

Paying for bus in addition also negates it for some. Of course for others it will make much sense.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Plumstead and Woolwich Dockyard are set to see many new homes in their vicinity soon.

Around 3,000 at Plumstead and 4,000+ near Woolwich Dockyard.

Really? Out of interest, do you know where? I travel through Plumstead quite a bit, and off the top of my head I can't think of any significant land that's free to build much housing - short of demolishing the industrial area North of the station. Not as familiar with Woolwich Dockyard, but I can't think of that much free land there either.

In the long term they'll still be well used stations I predict.
Both do still offer quick links to London Bridge, the City and West End all in 20-30 mins. By the time taking a bus to an Elizabeth Line station then transferring it may not always be worth the hassle depending on destination.

Paying for bus in addition also negates it for some. Of course for others it will make much sense.

I largely agree, though with the proviso that some of the housing around both stations is within fairly easy walking distance of Woolwich EL station anyway. I'd expect some people who live just East of Woolwich Dockyard or just West of Plumstead and who previously used those stations would now find it easier to walk to the Elizabeth line. Obviously won't be the case for anyone who lives just West of Woolwich Dockyard or just East of Plumstead.

London Bridge is probably still quicker to get to on SouthEastern, but I'd expect most parts of the West End to be quicker on EL to Tottenham Court Road - although obviously depending on precisely where you're heading from/to.

 

[DC1989]

Is there any indication of when the next phase opens? They are saying Autumn but is that 1st September or 31st November!

EDIT: So I see the central section is due to be closed on Saturday 29th October. So I guess it won't be until after this

 

[kevin_roche]

Did anyone notice that RTT is now showing the train times on the COS in quarter minute increments?

Realtime Trains | Departures from Tottenham Court Road all day on 13/06/2022

Train information at Tottenham Court Road all day on 13/06/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[pdeaves]

Did anyone notice that RTT is now showing the train times on the COS in quarter minute increments?

Realtime Trains | Departures from Tottenham Court Road all day on 13/06/2022

Train information at Tottenham Court Road all day on 13/06/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Unless I am much mistaken, most 'actual' times show to 1/4 minute accuracy. Certainly at Swindon (RTT extract):

 

[kevin_roche]

Unless I am much mistaken, most 'actual' times show to 1/4 minute accuracy. Certainly at Swindon (RTT extract):
View attachment 116134

Oh. Thanks. I was misled by a post on another thread into thinking everything was in half minutes only. My blurred vision after covid has not helped either.

 

[345 050]

Found the documentary most illuminating. One interesting aspect that was covered was the auto reverse at Paddington/Westbourne Park sidings. From what I picked up in the programme, it looked like auto reverse is not activated until the driver reaches the sidings. I'm sure we discussed this previously in this thread, but why is auto reverse not activated as soon as the train departs Paddington? I'm sure the issue of trespassers was mentioned, but surely that is equally an issue when the train goes back into Paddington without the driver at the front.

 

[pdeaves]

Found the documentary most illuminating. One interesting aspect that was covered was the auto reverse at Paddington/Westbourne Park sidings. From what I picked up in the programme, it looked like auto reverse is not activated until the driver reaches the sidings. I'm sure we discussed this previously in this thread, but why is auto reverse not activated as soon as the train departs Paddington? I'm sure the issue of trespassers was mentioned, but surely that is equally an issue when the train goes back into Paddington without the driver at the front.

I don't know an official answer, but I suppose it's a partial compromise. If there's no trespasser when you go into the siding there is low chance of there being one on the way out.

 

[KenA]

It is a relatively short term issue as more passengers will be using Oyster / Contactless in 2024. Making passengers go to the exit is better for the operator in terms of potential fare evasion.

The Oyster card is now a legacy system and very little new provision will go in

 

[Justin Smith]

Could someone just confirm for me that the Elizabeth line will use the existing Heathrow tunnels ?
Why I ask is that this map appears to show the course of the Heathrow Crossrail tunnels is slightly different from the existing ones. Is it just a mapping error ?

 

[gabrielhj07]

Could someone just confirm for me that the Elizabeth line will use the existing Heathrow tunnels ?
Why I ask is that this map appears to show the course of the Heathrow Crossrail tunnels is slightly different from the existing ones. Is it just a mapping error ?

I think the map must be off by a few metres. I used the Elizabeth Line (then TFL Rail) to Heathrow Terminal 5 in November and it went through the usual tunnels.

 

[JN114]

Could someone just confirm for me that the Elizabeth line will use the existing Heathrow tunnels ?
Why I ask is that this map appears to show the course of the Heathrow Crossrail tunnels is slightly different from the existing ones. Is it just a mapping error ?

Just a mapping error - it will use the same tunnels as Heathrow Express have for years, and indeed TfL rail have been using since taking over Heathrow Connect

EDIT - I’d also suggest it’s the underlying map that is incorrect; and the overlay put on by Crossrail is right - the platforms at Heathrow Terminal 5 are due East/West, whereas the underlying map has them more Northwest/Southeast