Rail strikes discussion

[Bletchleyite]

I wish I could have been furloughed. A decision was made to keep the railway open to support those who needed to get to work. We were constantly told that the railway needed to run because it was essential and other key workers were reliant on the railway still running. Do you think it should have shut down ?

I was for a very short period (3 weeks). Months would have been boring. I'd rather have worked.

 

[py_megapixel]

Get over it. There was a democratic vote. One side won, yours lost. I haven't boycotted the litany of companies that wanted us to stay in.

So one can't complain about something they perceive to be a problem unless the majority of the electorate agrees with them? What sort of awful dystopian society is that?

 

[ar10642]

Perhaps some positive news this morning. I am on a Thameslink from Haywards Heath to Cambridge, possibly the last one for a while before I have to start doing this journey by road, and it was very well loaded until East Croydon and full and standing between East Croydon - London Bridge. Certainly the busiest I've seen in it a long time. Maybe things are recovering in the South East morning peaks.

 

[TreacleMiller]

If I'm completely honest I believe that any trainee driver who chooses not to join ASLEF is a little unwise. I know of at least 2 trainees who would have lost their jobs without backing from the union. The local reps are generally very supportive and will help you out or answer any questions you have. Management is not always on your side. ASLEF are also generally much more measured than RMT. If you're not in the union, you don't get any of that. Obviously fully your choice but don't just rule it out completely before you have the chance to get settled in.

I haven't said I'm not going to join ASLEF, I likely will. It doesn't mean I need to back every decision they make.

My concern is, right now, that striking appears to be nonsensical and will not gain public sympathy needed for a prolonged strike which appears to the the aim.

 

[Smidster]

This thread is the perfect epitome of why big business continue to make record profits despite a "cost of living crisis" and why government get away with giving themselves pay rises during record inflation whilst telling all the countries workers no.... The problem is us, a payrise for any worker in any industry is a win now, it weakens the status quo. Be it train driver, signaller, nurse, teacher, fireman. We will all end up broke unless we stop sniping each other. The state doesn't want us having any money anymore, just continuously feeding the debt system to sustain the banking system we have.

The railway companies are not making profits let alone record profits.

The Government did not "give themselves a pay rise" - An independent review body (IPSA) made an award based on average wage growth in the public sector...and that is an award of 2.7% so substantially below inflation and indeed below private sector awards after a freeze in 2021-22.

The State wants people to have good incomes - that is what keeps the economy moving and keeps the Government winning elections but massive pay rises are not the answer to every problem...we don't have the money to spend (after we splurged it all on Covid) and the risk of inflationary spirals is real.

A deal can be done - but only if both sides are realistic which I fear is a long long way off.

 

[ar10642]

I wish I could have been furloughed.

It really wasn't that great. It's basically your company telling you you are surplus to requirements (not "essential") and there might not be a job for you at the end. You lost at least 20% of your pay and you don't know how long it will go on for. Having nothing to do but hang around the house all day long aimlessly isn't really all that great for you either, you weren't allowed to go anywhere or do anything. Sure you could do gardening or sorting out or something like that but remember the tips were closed so you couldn't really do much of that either. Basically sun came up, nothing happened, sun went down, repeat.

I got so fed up with it I ended up leaving my old company despite likely being on furlough until maybe November 2020 and got a new job in June working from home instead. I wouldn't have done that if it was such a great thing to be doing.

Getting a whole load of tax money handed out for sitting around when I was perfectly capable of working, but prevented from doing so really didn't sit right with me either. Some people loved it but I hated every minute.

 

[NI 271]

You need to address that to the person who wrote the original point, as it wasn’t me.

Sincere apologies for that.

'footprints' ought to respond also. I rather suspect he/she won't.

 

[ExRes]

Absolutely; if that occurs then it needs to be the strongest possible action.

I have to ask though, who exactly is going to take that action? I worked for two extremely large organisations, the Post Office and the Railway, I know of people in the PO who were being shunned 20 years after the strike of 1971, no action was taken by either employer or union at any time and when I joined 6 months after the strike ended I was given a run down of the 'scabs' I shouldn't talk to or be seen with, equally when I joined the railway I was supplied by the local union reps with all the names of the people to keep away from and a verbal list of their transgressions, you then have to choose whether to maintain that attitude or be added to 'the list' yourself

 

[SJN]

I haven't said I'm not going to join ASLEF, I likely will. It doesn't mean I need to back every decision they make.

My concern is, right now, that striking appears to be nonsensical and will not gain public sympathy needed for a prolonged strike which appears to the the aim.

You don’t need to agree with everything they say no but, if there is a ballot and a strike is called as a result, then every union member should back the union and their colleagues. That’s the point of the union.

 

[Goldfish62]

True, but the other issue is that for a higher paid employee where even a small pay rise might take them into the next (higher) tax bracket, this could equate to a net zero increase

Taxation doesn't work like that.

 

[JohntyRogers]

But the rail way has not been making record profits - quite the opposite. In the real world when a business is failing, people lose their jobs and pay freezes occur. Quite why the rail industry should be insulated from that I don't know.

I don't draw a link between profits and paying people. Profits are the businesses concern not the staff doing the job, and that goes for every sector. Its not the lowly employees fault senior management who are on 500k can't manage the business effectively.

Have you also thought about this. Perhaps if every worker in this country actually had a better standard of financial helath, ie better salaries and pay, then they would have more disposable income to, one pay higher train fares, travel more for leisure and thus brings more money to the railway. A richer work force spends more. The whole system is entwined and feeds itself.

The bottom line is a flourishing economy requires the masses to have money, money the masses simply don't have, the vast majority live on debt. And that's to prop up the fiscal system rather than what's good for the country.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Jun 2022 ==

The railway companies are not making profits let alone record profits.

The Government did not "give themselves a pay rise" - An independent review body (IPSA) made an award based on average wage growth in the public sector...and that is an award of 2.7% so substantially below inflation and indeed below private sector awards after a freeze in 2021-22.

The State wants people to have good incomes - that is what keeps the economy moving and keeps the Government winning elections but massive pay rises are not the answer to every problem...we don't have the money to spend (after we splurged it all on Covid) and the risk of inflationary spirals is real.

A deal can be done - but only if both sides are realistic which I fear is a long long way off.

I simply disagree with the statement that give rent doendt have the money. Its factually wrong and it's a lie the tories have been perpetrating for decades. Billions are found to fund Covid, billions are found to fund ukraine.

If this country wants money, tax the businesses making billions in profits, there is trillions available thet could morally tax and don't because that means adversely affecting the hedge funds who own these business amougnst others, (a lot who don't pay any tax) and ergo their mates and those who get them and keep them in power.


Regarding the statement.. MP'S didn't give themselves a pay rise, they have brainwashed you. Its set up like that so people like you can say exactly that. They could always refuse it couldn't they. Them recivinh a payrise whilst telling us the country is broke and nobody should push for a payrise is grotesque. Give it back.

 

[Gems]

I have to ask though, who exactly is going to take that action? I worked for two extremely large organisations, the Post Office and the Railway, I know of people in the PO who were being shunned 20 years after the strike of 1971, no action was taken by either employer or union at any time and when I joined 6 months after the strike ended I was given a run down of the 'scabs' I shouldn't talk to or be seen with, equally when I joined the railway I was supplied by the local union reps with all the names of the people to keep away from and a verbal list of their transgressions, you then have to choose whether to maintain that attitude or be added to 'the list' yourself

Things have changed since the 1970's. Dignity at work policies will see to any direct bad mouthing. Obviously if someone wants to take their bat and ball home and just not speak to you, do you really want to speak to them? I think most people are grown up though. Imagine me not speaking to anyone who voted Tory, I wouldn't be speaking to half if not more of those now going on strike.

 

[DC1989]

I don't draw a link between profits and paying people. Profits are the businesses concern not the staff doing the job, and that goes for every sector. Its not the lowly employees fault senior management who are on 500k can't manage the business effectively.

True enough - but if there's no profits then where does the money to pay the faultless staff come from?

Again, in the real world, a business that can't turn a profit fails, the company closes down and all the staff lose their jobs. When Blockbuster UK closed down and 4,000 people lost their job, sure it wasn't many of their employees fault, but whats the alternative? Give them a 10% payrise and a goldplated pension and get the government to pay for it?

 

[ExRes]

Things have changed since the 1970's. Dignity at work policies will see to any direct bad mouthing. Obviously is someone wants to take their bat and ball home and just not speak to you, do you really want to speak to them? I think most people are grown up though. Imagine me not speaking to anyone who voted Tory, I wouldn't be speaking to half if not more of those now going on strike.

No, no, no, I'm talking about the 1970's through to the 2010's, unless things have changed remarkably in the last 10 years there's been little or no change in attitude or behaviour in the last 50 years, you mention voting Tory, what about the dreaded B word? people being abused and threatened for voting how they wanted to, as this very forum proved. I've also had the dubious 'pleasure' of talking to senior officials of both RMT and ASLEF, I saw no difference between theirs and some members attitudes

 

[2021_Signaller]

Do you really think that all of that equates enough money for say a 5% pay rise for 40000+ staff? Even if rail was nationalised again, you'd need regional communication/marketing/IT/commercial etc departments and regional directors too. And again, a rail worker is advocating someone else losing their job for their own gain - sickening.

Agree with this wholeheartedly. Part of the reason we're in a cost of living crisis is Brexit and the RMT pushed for it. I'll certainly never forget they wanted it.

Also, I do wonder how many people who pushed for nationalisation ever worked in the public sector? I worked in it for 18 months - no pay rise, no perks. I left due to budgets being cut and my job becoming ever more difficult to do and joined the railway instead because I knew people who worked in it and said it was a good place to be. And now the same things are seemingly happening to rail. What's even more funny is that on this very forum I've seen an RMT rep complaining about those perks of the job being stripped back - welcome to the public sector son.

Not to do with Brexit. Our Covid policy is the cause of the rapid inflation. There are 2 things that cause inflation. A rising money supply (insane QE thanks to Covid) and the velocity of money (economy was shut down to going back to fully open). The huge inflation has all resulted from lockdown.

I'm afraid I've seen nothing yet to disuade me from the view that this is simply the RMT loony leadership grabbing the opportunity to do a 'national' strike, something which no doubt the top brass will feel makes them heroes in their own lifetime. The language in some of their recent propaganda makes no attempt at hiding their glee and delight in arranging "the largest industrial action since the 1980s" or words to that effect. This is clearly all their Christmases coming at once. Their awareness of how dire the effects of their heroic crusade may be for the people they have persuaded to carry it out on their behalf,seems to have escaped them entirely, that or they just don't care. Aslef I presume have decided that they might as well take their own action at the same time, which is understandable.

You need to read from the start. There are legitimate reasons why we are striking.

But the rail way has not been making record profits - quite the opposite. In the real world when a business is failing, people lose their jobs and pay freezes occur. Quite why the rail industry should be insulated from that I don't know.

Failing? The railway doubled in capacity in just 20 years. The downturn in passenger numbers now is because of government policy removing people from trains due to Covid. Note that in Sweden where they didn't lockdown the rest of the economy are absolutely fine. There was no massive debt accrued. People lived freely and wonderfully. We're the suckers that were living in misery! Government wrecked the rail industry, so government should fix it!

So one can't complain about something they perceive to be a problem unless the majority of the electorate agrees with them? What sort of awful dystopian society is that?

We call it democracy, were people vote in elections. The awful dystopian society would be one of second referendums by losers so arrogant that they think a minority knows best and should decide for the rest of us. No thanks. Also, you're being loose with the truth. You weren't just complaining about the unions opinion - you used the views of the union to determine that you didn't want to stay a member. That's petty in the extreme.

 

[JohntyRogers]

True enough - but if there's no profits then where does the money to pay the faultless staff come from?

Again, in the real world, a business that can't turn a profit fails, the company closes down and all the staff lose their jobs. When Blockbuster UK closed down and 4,000 people lost their job, sure it wasn't many of their employees fault, but whats the alternative? Give them a 10% payrise and a goldplated pension and get the government to pay for it?

Like I said, unless the people of this country become wealthier the cycle will never change. You want to turn business like this around, it will start will giving those who pay for the service more money to use.

But its not fair to compare the railway to blockbuster, the railway is in part providing a critical public service. Also I don't know where these losses come from, my employer, their parent cmpany makes profit and is in profit.

 

[Gems]

True enough - but if there's no profits then where does the money to pay the faultless staff come from?

Again, in the real world, a business that can't turn a profit fails, the company closes down and all the staff lose their jobs. When Blockbuster UK closed down and 4,000 people lost their job, sure it wasn't many of their employees fault, but whats the alternative? Give them a 10% payrise and a goldplated pension and get the government to pay for it?

The railway is slightly more complex than Blockbuster video's though isn't it. There isn't a railway anywhere in the world that operates in profit with no form of subsidy. The railway is more than a business, it's a form of mass transit that has a direct impact on the economy. Over the past two decades successive governments have fuelled commuting by allowing the building of houses in urban towns, they can hardly now just turn their backs on that.
Most of the railway costs are not staff costs. Only a very small percentage is wages. The majority is expensive leasing of rolling stock, and how do you solve that problem? Blaming wages for ballooning leasing costs to banks is a favourite government activity, it's been tried and tested over the decades, don't fall for it.

 

[AlterEgo]

There’s plenty of money for a pay deal.

There is, if you count taxpayer money, yes.

The duplication of roles on the railway is insane.

So will you be losing your job? Who should lose theirs?

I’m retiring in two years.

Oh, I see.

 

[Gems]

No, no, no, I'm talking about the 1970's through to the 2010's, unless things have changed remarkably in the last 10 years there's been little or no change in attitude or behaviour in the last 50 years, you mention voting Tory, what about the dreaded B word? people being abused and threatened for voting how they wanted to, as this very forum proved. I've also had the dubious 'pleasure' of talking to senior officials of both RMT and ASLEF, I saw no difference between theirs and some members attitudes

So what do you want to do, hide under a stone until the nasty boogyman has gone. Why are you worrying about what someone might think or say. Just do what I will do, give anyone on the picket line a wave as you drive into the car park. They'll be white blackbirds the day I care about someone else's insecurities.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

Taxation doesn't work like that.

It does. They'll be taxed at the higher rate over the threshold, not on the whole of their salary

 

[Dstock7080]

Are Underground drivers mostly in the RMT or ASLEF?

Not an even split, majority would be ASLEF but on certain Lines RMT membership is higher. However, non-Union membership is increasing

 

[Peterthegreat]

The railway is slightly more complex than Blockbuster video's though isn't it. There isn't a railway anywhere in the world that operates in profit with no form of subsidy. The railway is more than a business, it's a form of mass transit that has a direct impact on the economy. Over the past two decades successive governments have fuelled commuting by allowing the building of houses in urban towns, they can hardly now just turn their backs on that.
Most of the railway costs are not staff costs. Only a very small percentage is wages. The majority is expensive leasing of rolling stock, and how do you solve that problem? Blaming wages for ballooning leasing costs to banks is a favourite government activity, it's been tried and tested over the decades, don't fall for it.

Figures released by ORR for 2018-2019 show that for TOCs staff salaries amounted to 23% of total expenditure. Rolling stock leasing costs amounted to 17%.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It does. They'll be taxed at the higher rate over the threshold, not on the whole of their salary

The OP said an increase could result in net zero actual increase. This isn't true except if you go into the "super tax" band (£100K plus) where you start losing your tax free allowance. No railway operational staff are anywhere near this threshold, only very senior management might be.

(This band is really rather stupid as it does have the effect stated, but only for earnings between about £100K and £125K - it would be better to leave the allowance where it is and tweak that threshold instead)

 

[py_megapixel]

We call it democracy, were people vote in elections. The awful dystopian society would be one of second referendums by losers so arrogant that they think a minority knows best and should decide for the rest of us. No thanks.

Almost nobody was actually calling for a second referendum on whether to begin the process of leaving the EU, though. What they were actually calling for was a referendum on whether or not to accept the withdrawal agreement which had ultimately been negotiated.

I still don't understand how this would have been undemocratic.

Also, you're being loose with the truth. You weren't just complaining about the unions opinion -you used the views of the union to determine that you didn't want to stay a member.

I did nothing of the sort. I'm don't even work in the rail industry!

But what is wrong with someone not wanting to stay in a union that they feel doesn't represent their views?

 

[Mintona]

I can't afford it either. But as sure as anything if my colleagues vote to strike ill do the decent thing and walk out. Why? Because when that ineveitable payrise is eventually won , I will have played my part and not been a freeloader. If everyone thought like you we would be on half the money we are on now.
So by all means leave the union, but you can thank the rest of us when a pay award is won. And don't forget there are still drivers who won't talk to drivers who came to work in 1982, folk have long memories.

For every day of strike action I’m going to lose two days worth of pay, as my partner works on the railway too. We have a mortgage and a child to think about, as well as various other bills and debts.

And ‘when a pay award is won’ is not certain in the slightest. I would be astonished if a pay award is forthcoming. Where is the incentive from HMG to give rail staff a payrise? Remember, they are saving money on every day that trains don’t run.

What’s more, I don’t want a payrise. I want to come to work and work hard and go home at the end of the day and not worry about things, and I’m quite happy to continue doing that on my current salary. @driverd puts it better than me.

 

[Howardh]

To save me ploughing through 20 pages, have there been/are there planned any talks yet?

 

[footprints]

To save me ploughing through 20 pages, have there been/are there planned any talks yet?

RMT have demanded talks "without pre-conditions" with the Government, despite making it clear they have several pre-conditions of their own. The usual RMT claptrap then about "meaningful negotiations", by which they mean abject surrender.

 

[DarloRich]

To many in industries where we were furloughed on 80% of pay for months on end and have no sign of pay rises, the question that we ask is how come railway staff were on 100% of pay but for large parts of the lockdowns only operating a reduced service with less hours worked?

A few points:

1. Railway workers were not entitled to be furloughed.
2. There are many more people working in the railway sector than the guards and drivers this board focuses on
3. Many of the people outside of these roles didn't work fewer hours, they worked more and at much higher levels of stress and personal health damage than previously but yeah, all skivers.

 

[ExRes]

So what do you want to do, hide under a stone until the nasty boogyman has gone. Why are you worrying about what someone might think or say. Just do what I will do, give anyone on the picket line a wave as you drive into the car park. They'll be white blackbirds the day I care about someone else's insecurities.

Good for you, we should all have the right to do what we want, good luck is all I can say if you want to ignore reality, conversation ended

 

[High Dyke]

To save me ploughing through 20 pages, have there been/are there planned any talks yet?

An email I received said Network Rail were "meeting with RMT this week to make an offer and address the matters at the heart of the dispute".

Whether that actually results in positive news remains to be seen.