East Coast Eureka clockface timetable May 2011

[YorkshireRider]

Was speaking to some staff at east coast. They dont seem to impressed at the moment say a lot can change between now and May and hope it will. I guess when you need to do more diagrams with the same workforce you probably need to work people harder. :-/. I hope morale doesn't go back to national express standards.

Cant say as moral is too bad in Leeds at the moment, just a little baffelling how its all going to work on the catering side, too much of a 'it will be alright on the night' attitude from senior management going on. In fact it would seem there will be less weekend working on the new rosters which can only be good.

 

[route101]

I was on the 1550 EC from Glasgow Central to Edinburgh and was surprised that before we had reached Edinburgh there was an Annoucement for the Restuarant car , never heard that on this service . If only i was going beyond Waverley

 

[Failed Unit]

Me123 post #179. Simply because I forgot to type it rather that wanting to miss Newcastle out. You are right it would be crazy to miss out one of the routes biggest markets.

 

[Deerfold]

If you can't get hold of the details working for ECML, probably not. We've discussed ealier in the thread that ORR made a decision not to drip feed timetable details to the public.

Although that's exactly what is happening - an announcement of a new Harrogate service but at the time the current Bradford FS service runs...details of a morning train from the North East...

 

[silentone]

As an East Coast employee based in Glasgow I can confirm the above. Moral in the company is getting to an all time low. Company now considering getting ride of 100 staff from the on-board catering and station/booking office side. Allegedly to pay for the new 1st class offer (free food and drink).
It would appear that with the closure of the Glasgow depot all staff who wish to transfer to Edinburgh will have a job, with no compulsory redundancies as of yet.

Can anyone tell me where I can get sight of the complete proposed May 2011 timetable for the East Coast including the additional "proposed" XC services through to Glasgow. Is their also talk of ScotRail running trains from Glasgow Central via Motherwell to Berwick upon Tweed?

I suspect part of this 100 staff will be agency staff, hence no redundancies. Now before people jump on this, these staff will have been made aware when applying and through the recruitment process that the job was available only until May. I certainly know a number of agency staff who are not happy they haven't got contracts yet and are being very vocal about it but they have been told but have chosen to ignore this and assume they would all get contracts.

I'm also sure morale varies within the company just now, but everyone I know/work with seems very positive as we all work towards the unknown. I think morale being low at Glasgow is to be expected.

 

[Aictos]

I know the reason is not enough sets, but hopefully should the IEP ever take off we will be able to extend all the Newcastle terminators to Edinburgh. Don't know how many sets that will take, but once the IEP is approved demand will have increase.

So you have
0000 London, York, Darlington, Newcastle, Berwick, Edinburgh
0030 London, Peterborough, Newark, Doncaster, York, Darlington, Durham, Alnmouth, Edinburgh (as proposed)
0100 As 0000
0130 London, Peterborough, Newark, Doncaster, York, Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Dunbar, Edinburgh,

I don't like it, why should Peterborough have to deal with only having the slower services to Edinburgh?

Surely it's fairer to have one slow and one fast from Peterborough as it's a important interchange from East Anglia to Scotland traffic.

What should happen is the two services should be as follows:

Fast

London, Peterborough, York, Newcastle, Berwick, Edinburgh

Slow

London, Peterborough, Newark, Doncaster, York, Darlington, Durham, Alnmouth/Dunbar, Edinburgh

Northallerton, Darlington, Durham could equally be served by Grand Central and TPE.

 

[MCR247]

Peterborough does not need 2tph to Edinburgh. I does not need the fast which should be first stop York. You are only talking about a train taking a bit longer, not calling at every house along the way.

Stops on the slower one should be alternated between Newark and Grantham

 

[Fred26]

Fast
London, Peterborough, York, Newcastle, Berwick, Edinburgh

Why should Berwick get a fast service?

 

[Failed Unit]

Why should Berwick get a fast service?

On a selfish point of view I would only stop the fasts at York and Newcastle, but Darlington really needs 2tph. (unless the York stopper also goes to Newcastle)

 

[MCR247]

For me I'd have

00 - London, York, Newcastle, Edinburgh
30 - London, Peterborough, Grantham/Newark, Doncaster, York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Alnmouth/Berwick

Or if you wanted to even them out a bit, you could transfer the Donny stop to the fast

 

[Fred26]

I'd go with Kings Cross, Peterborough, Doncaster, York, Darlington, Newcastle and Edinburgh for the fast service, off-peak.
Slow, I'm not sure about.

 

[Failed Unit]

For me I'd have

00 - London, York, Newcastle, Edinburgh
30 - London, Peterborough, Grantham/Newark, Doncaster, York, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle, Alnmouth/Berwick

Or if you wanted to even them out a bit, you could transfer the Donny stop to the fast

No leave the fast, fast.

Then 0003 ever other hour
Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark, Retford, Doncaster, York (as now), Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle.

The problem of course with this is that the 0030 will probably catch up and need to overtake!

 

[Fred26]

I mentioned in another thread a while ago, that I'd like to see (I think I said) two trains per hour calling Kings Cross, Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark, Retford, Doncaster, Wakefield, Leeds. I'd change that to one per hour, with a decent connection to Edinburgh at Doncaster or Leeds. The rough Eureka timetable I saw had a 56 minute connection (or similar) at Doncaster for an Edinburgh train. Not good.

 

[philjo]

I would agree that the York stopper should possibly extend to Newcastle, or the xx:30 call additionally at Stevenage on alternate hours.

Under the new timetable, going from Stevenage to anywhere north of York involves changing - generally with either very tight (5 minutes) or long (e.g. 56 minutes) connections at Doncaster or York.

At the moment the 07:19 Stevange to Glasgow service provides good connections at Darlington (e.g. with another change at Middlesborough to be in Whitby by 12:05), Newcastle (including with 10:24 Newcastle-Carlisle), Edinburgh & at Glasgow.
Not sure how some of these journeys can be done after the timetable change.

 

[Failed Unit]

I'd go with Kings Cross, Peterborough, Doncaster, York, Darlington, Newcastle and Edinburgh for the fast service, off-peak.
Slow, I'm not sure about.

I would make that the slow myself but add Durham and Berwick in with a decent connection at Doncaster for other services. The fast York and Newcastle only. That is the major problem which i don't envy the planners for. You can't make a timetable to make everyone happy. Newcastle want fast and stopping at Doncaster and Darlington slows them down. Those stations want a decent service.

 

[Fred26]

I would make that the slow myself but add Durham and Berwick in with a decent connection at Doncaster for other services. The fast York and Newcastle only. That is the major problem which i don't envy the planners for. You can't make a timetable to make everyone happy. Newcastle want fast and stopping at Doncaster and Darlington slows them down. Those stations want a decent service.

I see what you're saying, but I'm not convinced they'd be busy, most of the week. I'd sooner add Stevenage, Grantham, Newark, Retford, Northallerton, Durham, Berwick... not necessarily all of those (sorry if the order is incorrect), to make a slow service.
For me, Peterborough, Doncaster, York, Darlington and Newcastle are all good for cross country connections (the routes, not the TOC). They're quite evenly spaced and I think for a one per hour job, that'd do fine.

How many do East Coast want, per hour, for Kings Cross-Edinburgh?

 

[Failed Unit]

One at the moment but two is the desire.

A lot of services now are very slow at 4h45. But east coast have healthy flows from Edinburgh to places like Doncaster. I don't think if the hourly service took 4 hours the trains would be full as you say. Although London - Edinburgh are busiest off peak probably with the leisure market. The 1130 Edinburgh - London is normally very well loaded (because it doesnt stop much)

 

[Fred26]

One at the moment but two is the desire.

A lot of services now are very slow at 4h45. But east coast have healthy flows from Edinburgh to places like Doncaster. I don't think if the hourly service took 4 hours the trains would be full as you say. Although London - Edinburgh are busiest off peak probably with the leisure market. The 1130 Edinburgh - London is normally very well loaded (because it doesnt stop much)

I think East Coast's biggest problem is Kings Cross to Edinburgh. If any TOC ever has problems enticing people, off-peak, into the capital city, it is doing something very wrong. Enticing people out of the city, though, is a different matter.
Perhaps Edinburgh to Kings Cross should have a different and quicker calling pattern than vice versa? Maybe just Newcastle and York in the Up direction.

I'd like to see two London-Edinburgh's per hour. I think it'd be great. How do you draw the line, though. Obviously, one fast, one slow, but do you choose stations (for the slow) based on patronage, connections... how? Calling points for the fast are more obvious - there's no way East Coast can miss York or Newcastle. Never.

 

[NXEA!]

If it was my choice and the paths were available, I'd consider the following stopping patterns for services; Edinburgh fast; York, Newcastle and Edinburgh. Edinburgh slow; Peterborough, Grantham/Newark (alternating every hour), Doncaster, York, Darlington,Northallerton, Durham, (can't remember which order these three come in), Newcastle, Alnmouth/Berwick (alternating every hour) and Edinburgh. Also if the stock and paths were available, I'd also run an hourly Newcastle stopping service; Stevenage, Grantham/Newark (calling at the station not served by the Edinburgh slow), Retford, Doncaster, York, Darlington, Northallerton, Durham and Newcastle. I'd make sure it was timed to connect cross-platform with a XC or EC Edinburgh service, so passengers from Stevenage, Grantham/Newark and Retford could have an easy change to get to Edinburgh.

 

[Fred26]

If it was my choice and the paths were available, I'd consider the following stopping patterns for services; Edinburgh fast; York, Newcastle and Edinburgh. Edinburgh slow; Peterborough, Grantham/Newark (alternating every hour), Doncaster, York, Darlington,Northallerton, Durham, (can't remember which order these three come in), Newcastle, Alnmouth/Berwick (alternating every hour) and Edinburgh. Also if the stock and paths were available, I'd also run an hourly Newcastle stopping service; Stevenage, Grantham/Newark (calling at the station not served by the Edinburgh slow), Retford, Doncaster, York, Darlington, Northallerton, Durham and Newcastle. I'd make sure it was timed to connect cross-platform with a XC or EC Edinburgh service, so passengers from Stevenage, Grantham/Newark and Retford could have an easy change to get to Edinburgh.

If you're going to put Grantham/Newark, Northallerton, Alnmouth/Berwick on your slow, you might as well add Stevenage. I know it's close to London, but it is a busy station and many people change there for (stations to) Cambridge, towns via the Hertford Loop and those between Stevenage and Kings Cross via Welwyn.

I find it quite sad that East Coast (according to the draft timetable) are going to pull a lot of services from Stevenage in favour of glamours fast services. I wouldn't expect them to stop everything there, but one per hour, with good connections... perhaps a slow Leeds, with good connections to Edinburgh. Also, if Stevenage passengers had a good connection to an Edinburgh and Leeds service at Peterborough via FCC, that'd be good too.

 

[swt_passenger]

Although that's exactly what is happening - an announcement of a new Harrogate service but at the time the current Bradford FS service runs...details of a morning train from the North East...

I was thinking of repeated re-issues of the whole timetable, in 'quasi NRTT format' like the early post here, rather than individual services, but yours is a fair point...

 

[NXEA!]

I see your point there, but I just thought that because Stevenage and Peterborough are quite close together, it might not be nescessary, but that's not really an argument when in my ideal I have relatively short gaps between stations like Retford-Doncaster.

 

[swt_passenger]

All these proposed 'fast services' are all very well, but none so far have come up with the sort of thing shown in NR's ECML 2016 capacity review.

Their suggested fast Edinburgh service only calls at Newcastle and Berwick. Amongst other things, Darlington is seen as only needing one London Edinburgh service per hour - the rest of the calls would be TPE/XC.

Worth a read...

 

[Fred26]

I see your point there, but I just thought that because Stevenage and Peterborough are quite close together, it might not be nescessary, but that's not really an argument when in my ideal I have relatively short gaps between stations like Retford-Doncaster.

I think Stevenage is important and I wouldn't like to see it get lost from the East Coast fold.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

All these proposed 'fast services' are all very well, but none so far have come up with the sort of thing shown in NR's ECML 2016 capacity review.

Their suggested fast Edinburgh service only calls at Newcastle and Berwick. Amongst other things, Darlington is seen as only needing one London Edinburgh service per hour - the rest of the calls would be TPE/XC.

Worth a read...

Why bother? Speculation is so much more fun.

 

[Aictos]

Peterborough does not need 2tph to Edinburgh. I does not need the fast which should be first stop York. You are only talking about a train taking a bit longer, not calling at every house along the way.

Stops on the slower one should be alternated between Newark and Grantham

But that's just it, why just Peterborough be subjected to a poor slow service stopping at every single shack when the likes of Darlington and Durham for example not only have East Coast to get to Edinburgh but also Cross Country?

The likes of Grantham, Newark, Retford etc...could easily be picked up by a Yorkshire service.

 

[Fred26]

I've just seen the annual patronage at Darlington... scrap that stop from my fast service.

 

[NXEA!]

I think Stevenage is important and I wouldn't like to see it get lost from the East Coast fold.

Yeah, I agree with you about Stevenage, which is why I would include it in a stopping service to Newcastle, but I don't think it warrants an hourly service to Edinburgh personally.
Its not like Peterborough, which has services from East Anglia and Lincolnshire, as well as Cross-Country services, Stevenage is only served by FCC, so if passengers wanted Edinburgh, I would make the connection time at Peterborough around 8 minutes, so passengers from Stevenage can change there for a service to Edinburgh, or they can get a service to Newcastle and change there.

 

[Fred26]

Yeah, I agree with you about Stevenage, which is why I would include it in a stopping service to Newcastle, but I don't think it warrants an hourly service to Edinburgh personally.

Probably not. Some Edinburgh's, certainly. Not one per hour though. One Stevenage - Leeds per hour is something I agree with though.

 

[NXEA!]

Probably not. Some Edinburgh's, certainly. Not one per hour though. One Stevenage - Leeds per hour is something I agree with though.

Yeah, I would maybe stop one or two slows in each direction at Stevenage instead of Peterborough, with maybe these lost Peterborough calls being picked up by the fast train.

 

[tbtc]

No leave the fast, fast.

Then 0003 ever other hour
Stevenage, Peterborough, Grantham, Newark, Retford, Doncaster, York (as now), Northallerton, Darlington, Durham, Newcastle.

The problem of course with this is that the 0030 will probably catch up and need to overtake!

The "catching up" problem is why I'm against a fast London - York - Newcastle - Edinburgh service. It sounds nice, but it'd eat into so many paths on a two track line that one fast train would be at the expense of several other trains.

I appreciate that London to Edinburgh is a big market, but rail will never compete with air for time, the best way IMHO would be a simple clockface reliable timetable (rather than some ultra-fast ones).

Instead of having one "fast" and one "slow" each hour, I'd like to see a half hourly service from London to Edinburgh, serving York/Darlington/Newcastle half hourly, serving Peterborough/Doncaster/Durham/Berwick hourly and Alnmouth/Dunbar/Morpeth every three hours. So you'd get a train on the hour stopping at Peterborough (connections from Stevenage/ East Anglia/ Leicestershire), then a train on the half hour stopping at Doncaster (connections from South Yorkshire/ Lincolnshire/Nottinghamshire), that kind of thing.

At the moment London - Newcastle (and Edinburgh at times) is two trains an hour, but the gaps between "fast" and "slow" are so great that it might as well be one through train an hour, which is a waste.

Look at how Virgin run to Manchester/Birmingham with a uniform journey time (e.g. one stops at Watford, one at Milton Keynes, one at Rugby) rather than having one non-stop service and one that stops at Watford, Milton Keynes and Rugby - seems to work for them. Similarly FGW don't have a significant time difference between their two services each hour to Bristol/ Cardiff or the Oxford fasts.