Rail strikes discussion

[GRALISTAIR]

I think we genuinely need another thread for actual information about the strike. Having waded through 10+ pages of this thread, looking for actual useful information, I can confirm it is 90%+ opinions.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jun 2022 ==


Rest Day Working?

RDW = Rest Day Working yes. Just like breaks are necessary as in physical needs breaks and other for safety and human decency, nobody should work more than one rest day in 3 weeks in my opinion to avoid fatigue etc.

 

[LAX54]

A notice case full of 20 ESRs on some of the busiest routes in London on my return to work today confirms how bad its getting.
This is what the RMT and railway press should be putting in the public domain.


The disgraceful state of the foilage will hopefully come to a head once the full report onto Salisbury comes out.

But, as usual they are concentrating on the pay aspect, and lip service to the rest.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

It would be accurate to say that Wikipedia leans left both in its institutions and its userbase. Further, its reliance on academia compounds the left bias...

Peer reviewed journals are in my opinion quite rightly considered the best citation and reference along with official government document.

 

[windingroad]

Just like breaks are necessary as in physical needs breaks and other for safety and human decency, nobody should work more than one rest day in 3 weeks in my opinion to avoid fatigue.

I think I'd agree with that, in pretty much any role. It also prevents people feeling an obligation to take excessive overtime.

 

[theageofthetra]

There is going to be a higher rate of incident next week. The stress levels of everyone involved and the added pressure is a major contributory factor in any incident. Lots of people are going to be angry and impatient. Anyone who is working next week I would urge caution. Use your Non Technical Skills, aide memoires, commentary driving, personal protective strategies etc. Potentially, reporting on those days, will also go through the roof because more people are working to rule and not ignoring the small stuff.

As a Driver I've had plenty of signals go back and generally I push through the brown trouser moment and carry on; except for the more serious ones. On a day where there is a melting pot of issues. I'd probably come off. Not because I'm thinking its a signalling manager fluffing it (I trust anyone deemed competent) but because there is an increased risk to me and yes, my passengers

Absolutely correct. If I get any abuse from angry passengers too I'm not risking my license for something that's not my fault.

 

[matacaster]

Most public sector pensions ceased to be final salary based some time ago. Most are now on a career avarage basis. Oh, and average (normally mean) payrates are deceptive - an apples and oranges exercise. The civil service is, for example, pretty much a graduate employers now as most support roles have been outsourced.

Thanks, however career average pensions on in public sector tend to be better than company pensions in private sector because of the fact that public sector pay exceeded that of equivalents for circa 10 years. Individuals with private pensions involving a pot find that the charges are significant and the end pension generally pretty dire.

 

[theageofthetra]

Does anyone actually spend all of that time reading notices?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 18 Jun 2022 ==


If you read the article you'll find out.

That in the 21st century a safety critical industry relies on it's staff reading bits of paper in cases, which often aren't accurate, says everything about how it's managed

 

[ANorthernGuard]

That in the 21st century a safety critical industry relies on it's staff reading bits of paper in cases, which often aren't accurate, says everything about how it's managed

The reading of Notices in the Late Notice Case is mandatory for Drivers AND Guards

 

[Wolfie]

That in the 21st century a safety critical industry relies on it's staff reading bits of paper in cases, which often aren't accurate, says everything about how it's managed

Bits of paper in cases don't fail if a comms network drops out. They are a damned good backstop.

 

[Need2]

That in the 21st century a safety critical industry relies on it's staff reading bits of paper in cases, which often aren't accurate, says everything about how it's managed

In which case they would be inaccurate no matter what medium they were on!
And your proof of inaccuracy is?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Technology can not replace everything to a higher standard. ESRs are very accurate and they have to be.

 

[Facing Back]

Deliberately undermining a colleagues involvement in industrial action in order to line their own own pockets is reprehensible behaviour, IMO.

The working of trains is none of their concern and is in no way related to their grade. They should be utterly ashamed of their actions although you’d struggle to give any of them a brass neck with a blow torch.

This made me smile.

"None of their concern"? I had thought that this kind of demarcation was a relic of the 80s but clearly not. If you are part of an organisation in these enlightened times surely you will do what you can to make it a success? Or do you prefer to consider those who don't agree with you or operate in a management "the enemy"?

This thread had been enlightening and I'm so much clearer now about why the flexibility and working practices of the railway are such are problem.

 

[74A]

Most public sector pensions ceased to be final salary based some time ago. Most are now on a career avarage basis. Oh, and average (normally mean) payrates are deceptive - an apples and oranges exercise. The civil service is, for example, pretty much a graduate employers now as most support roles have been outsourced.

Railway pension went over to career average 6 years ago.

 

[Facing Back]

I wonder if there’s any correlation between attitudes like this and the comparable median pay scales between the rail industry and the likes of the NHS, the police and the fire service.

The RMT wanted the railway to be a government operated public service. Why would it be a surprise if that same government considered the similarity between railway staff, the NHS, the police and the fire service and decided to harmonise remuneration?

 

[newtownmgr]

Railway pension went over to career average 6 years ago.

Did it! You sure about that. Mines still final salary

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Did it! You sure about that. Mines still final salary

Mines certainly final salary

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Did it! You sure about that. Mines still final salary

Grand fathered in?

 

[matacaster]

I totally agree. Reasonable holidays too. You would be appalled at the situation in the USA.

Yes, holiday entitlement in USA is abysmal. Reasonable breaks should be afforded to everyone.

 

[74A]

Mines certainly final salary

Only if you joined before 1993.

 

[Horizon22]

When have I argued against people taking breaks?

I have argued in favour of breaks, and against 12hr shifts that unions and 'signalling colleagues' all support.

Do try to keep up.

So you'll be having words with the NHS then?

Hmmm, the thing is, either way it should be reported. Covering up for a "mate" in the first instance may feel right, but may not actually be doing either the person or the railway a favour at all. For all you know, that person may have something going on in their life which is effecting their concentration and that's the third time this shift they've done that; by reporting it they are relieved and hopefully get the break/support they need. And of course assuming the "mate" is in their TU, then their local rep should ensure they get dealt fairly with. It's also possible that they are a really nice decent person but they are just not cut out for the role and keep making mistakes, or their training was deficient. It's only when you see an accurate record you can identify this.

I've seen situations where a person who made a significant (safety critical) mistake appeared to have a clean record (i.e. what was reported) but anecdotally had "a record as long as your arm" so there was discomfort with their colleagues when the situation was treated as a first mistake (which from the point of view of the management/investigators, it was).

This is also true in terms of management of problem colleagues - "well nothing gets done"; from a management perspective, if nobody is ever going to formally report anyone, or get processes started, then it will appear than nothing was ever done. You have to start with informal notices and build forward. People need to not believe every bit of management involvement means a nuclear response from unions & development of staff is important.

Legally you are allowed at least a 20 minute (unpaid) break for every 6 hours of working. During that time you can't do any work but you don't have to be somewhere where you can do anything exciting. Bus drivers often sit in their vehicles on a bus station bench for their breaks. While, many people work at industrial sites in the middle of nowhere, so can't exactly go anywhere interesting at lunchtime! Virtually all employees get more than a 20 minute meal break, the legal minimum. But being paid while you're eating or resting is rare.

Breaks from driving are also necessary and need to be more substantial. However, a break from driving doesn't have to be a break from working altogether. Ticket sellers are also entitled to screen breaks but again a screen break doesn't have to mean a break from working, just a break from working at the screen.

And in certain railway roles you miss the break by a mile - often controllers, sometimes signallers and occasionally crew (disrupted on route) who are caught up in a more serious incident and don't get much of a moment away from the desk.

A notice case full of 20 ESRs on some of the busiest routes in London on my return to work today confirms how bad its getting.
This is what the RMT and railway press should be putting in the public domain.


The disgraceful state of the foilage will hopefully come to a head once the full report onto Salisbury comes out.

Which will no doubt mean NR have to spend more money in thae off-track area & vegetation management and costs will rise again.

The railway is an expensive beast, but often for good reasons and there's reports as long as your arm, from previous generations and even from the early 1990s which highlight why; often lax safety methods and poor communication because either systems weren't in place, aspects that seemed less important and critical were were de-prioritised, de-scoped which had unintended knock-on effects and poor training and competency regimes. There's definitely efficiencies to be made, but many core train crew processes have been known about for decades, and are a known cost. There's definitely some modernisation & effecinices to be made, yet things like core train crew processes have been stable for years are a known, acceptable cost. Overall the cost control of the railway is poor in many places and that needs stronger action, and the majority of this is not related to railway staffing.

 

[Wolfie]

Railway pension went over to career average 6 years ago.

In parallel with most public sector schemes then.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Only if you joined before 1993.

I stand corrected, I honestly believed it was final salary.

 

[matacaster]

So you'll be having words with the NHS then?



This is also true in terms of management of problem colleagues - "well nothing gets done"; from a management perspective, if nobody is ever going to formally report anyone, or get processes started, then it will appear than nothing was ever done. You have to start with informal notices and build forward. People need to not believe every bit of management involvement means a nuclear response from unions & development of staff is important.


And in certain railway roles you miss the break by a mile - often controllers, sometimes signallers and occasionally crew (disrupted on route) who are caught up in a more serious incident and don't get much of a moment away from the desk.


Which will no doubt mean NR have to spend more money in thae off-track area & vegetation management and costs will rise again.

The railway is an expensive beast, but often for good reasons and there's reports as long as your arm, from previous generations and even from the early 1990s which highlight why; often lax safety methods and poor communication because either systems weren't in place, aspects that seemed less important and critical were were de-prioritised, de-scoped which had unintended knock-on effects and poor training and competency regimes. There's definitely efficiencies to be made, but many core train crew processes have been known about for decades, and are a known cost. There's definitely some modernisation & effecinices to be made, yet things like core train crew processes have been stable for years are a known, acceptable cost. Overall the cost control of the railway is poor in many places and that needs stronger action, and the majority of this is not related to railway staffing.

If one of the major safety problems is trees obscuring vision, surely, something along the lines of an in_cab video camera triggered when it passes a signal not displaying an aspect that could be recorded would be a potential solution. Any failures to 'see' a signal sent back to apprpriate track section controllers.

 

[Efini92]

Only if you joined before 1993.

They’ve been career average for longer than that haven’t they?
Wasn’t that the management perk, getting it back dated?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

On some of my services we have that many knaves stickers etc instead of a cleaner we need a gardener lol

 

[Horizon22]

If one of the major safety problems is trees obscuring vision, surely, something along the lines of an in_cab video camera triggered when it passes a signal not displaying an aspect that could be recorded would be a potential solution. Any failures to 'see' a signal sent back to apprpriate track section controllers.

In that instance, you'd have the driver reporting it first up as a safety risk before the video was sent, recieved by an operator and reviewed (even if that is seconds / minutes using modern technology). So you'd probably get it at the same point.

The issue is more "prevention is better than cure"; you'd want it reported and dealt with far before it got this bad, which is where I can understand some of the concerns about the capacity of off-track teams. I had to deal with an incident the other day that blocked lines for over 1.5 hours due to obscured signals and the response time needed to get staff into place and ultimately resolve the problem. Hundreds of delay minutes and several cancellations or altered services. If it had been identified (and reported earlier)

So ultimately yes if some sort of in-cab video could detect something that is about to become a problem I'm sure that would be worthwhile as a driver understandably not be able to pick up on everything. However vegetation can be fickle and changable from innocuous to "stopping the job" in an instant, especially during freak bad weather.

 

[43066]

RDW = Rest Day Working yes. Just like breaks are necessary as in physical needs breaks and other for safety and human decency, nobody should work more than one rest day in 3 weeks in my opinion to avoid fatigue etc.

I recently did twelve days in a row, which was a combination of RDW and annual leave being declined. It was far too much and in all honesty I was probably too tired to be at work by the end of it.

 

[ar10642]

Yes, holiday entitlement in USA is abysmal. Reasonable breaks should be afforded to everyone.

There is no actual entitlement in law. Companies might eventually choose to give you two weeks "PTO" (paid time off) which includes any time off sick as well, but a lot of employees feel as if they shouldn't use it. Horrendous really.

You also have "fire at will". As in you're fired, Alan Sugar style with no rights at all.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I recently did twelve days in a row, which was a combination of RDW and annual leave being declined. It was far too much and in all honesty I was probably too tired to be at work by the end of it.

I am not surprised. My record is 16 shifts in a row in a chemical factory in Preston. However, I was single and under the age of 23 at the time in 1979. No way on gods earth could I do that now. Rest is extremely important.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Do 13 days on the trot reasonably regularly because of shortages.. and schapps wants to ban RDW lmao funniest thing I have heard in a while.