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All railway ticket offices in England to close?

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yorkie

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So first you need to make ticket offices redundant by having a ticketing system that is straightforward and usable. Then it's possible to reduce the ticket offices to dealing with complex ticketing queries and smartcard issues, rather than day to day retailing.
Good luck getting a ticket office to advise on 'complex' ticketing!

All we need to do is continue enabling more and more tickets for e-ticket fulfilment, including Rovers, Day Rangers, PTE products and then you can simply buy online, just as you can in sensible countries such as Czech Republic.

It's far easier to book a longer journey, and get the seat reservations you want, online than at a ticket office.

That said, there will always be a need for staff at some stations, but the staff may be better off being given a different role than sitting inside a ticket office.

I don't think ticket offices can be dispensed with any time soon as there are too many products that are unavailable online; that needs to change first.
 
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Ken H

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People like to buy from a person because they can be sure they are going to get the right ticket. getting the wrong ticket can be very expensive because you could end up with some sort of penalty.
Making getting a ticket a rigmarole will just make people say 's0d it, I will take the car'

Me and Mrs K went to Leeds some time ago. We parked up to get a bus into leeds to save the hassle of parking in the centre.
I said to the driver ' Do you do returns?' He said 'Are you two coming back together.' 'Yes', I said. 'Ah he said. get a 2 together day rover as thats cheaper. and you can use it to get around the centre if you want'
THATS why people like buying from a person, not a machine.
 

Philip

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You wouldn't need to do that at every station, only the larger ones, and you'd only need one member of staff doing it.



You can't pay on board on most UK train services now. Penalty Fares cover most of the network except the most rural bits.

What do you do with all the other staff then, even at the bigger stations? The government have been keen to stress that they're not looking at forced redundancies but rather natural wastage and redeployment.

To suggest that one member of staff can cover all customer service queries along with other duties at the bigger stations is unrealistic.
 

Bletchleyite

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What do you do with all the other staff then, even at the bigger stations? The government have been keen to stress that they're not looking at forced redundancies but rather natural wastage and redeployment.

You cease recruiting ticket office staff and progressively redeploy and close ticket offices as staff retire or choose to move to other jobs. The article doesn't say "all ticket offices will close in September", it says the process of closure will start then.

To suggest that one member of staff can cover all customer service queries along with other duties at the bigger stations is unrealistic.

Probably not. But the booking office isn't necessary the enquiry office. Manchester Picc for instance has a separate enquiry office under the departure board.
 

Bletchleyite

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People like to buy from a person because they can be sure they are going to get the right ticket.

Excuse me while I have a fit of hysterics.

Journey planners, ideally with splitting capabilities, are the best way to ensure you get the right ticket for the selected trains.

In my personal experience that is far from universally true.

Quite.
 

philosopher

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In my personal experience that is far from universally true.
I tend to find ticket office staff will not sell you the cheapest fare unless prompted. For example if you asked at Euston to buy a ticket to Birmingham, they will probably sell you the Avanti one unless you specifically ask for the London North Western fare.
 

Bletchleyite

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I tend to find ticket office staff will not sell you the cheapest fare unless prompted. For example if you asked at Euston to buy a ticket to Birmingham, they will probably sell you the Avanti one unless you specifically ask for the London North Western fare.

In my experience, generally, service from booking offices is usually (though not always) friendly and polite, but is mostly not knowledgeable.

For instance, one way route excesses (half the difference between the routed fares) are more often than not issued wrongly, as the full difference. But the City Thameslink issue, or a recent case of a Merseyrail booking office person not quite getting the request "day ticket, please" (despite that probably being the only thing he'd sold all day), really take the biscuit. I actively avoid booking offices these days.
 

SynthD

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I imagine many of the potential complaints used as roadblocks have been dealt with in the other systems that have gone ticketless, such as Sweden and London Underground. What must DfT/NR learn from them that might not be obviously necessary for success?
 

yorkie

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People like to buy from a person because they can be sure they are going to get the right ticket.
Far more likely to get the wrong ticket from a ticket office, in my experience.

When I buy online I know exactly what I am getting.

Also for most journeys it would cost a lot more to ask at the ticket office, and I wouldn't be able to use a seat selector.
 

Bletchleyite

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I imagine many of the potential complaints used as roadblocks have been dealt with in the other systems that have gone ticketless, such as Sweden and London Underground. What must DfT/NR learn from them that might not be obviously necessary for success?

It probably is obvious, but simplify fares - properly. TfL failed on that and still have a "tap in, tap out" system which implements a fare structure designed for paper tickets, and that adds lots of unnecessary complexity.
 

Starmill

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You cease recruiting ticket office staff and progressively redeploy and close ticket offices as staff retire or choose to move to other jobs.
To be fair this is exactly what happened two years ago at a number of operators. There are a quite a number of permanent booking office roles which weren't replaced when staff left them through promotion, retirement, leaving the business etc.
 

Iskra

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People like to buy from a person because they can be sure they are going to get the right ticket. getting the wrong ticket can be very expensive because you could end up with some sort of penalty.
Making getting a ticket a rigmarole will just make people say 's0d it, I will take the car'

Me and Mrs K went to Leeds some time ago. We parked up to get a bus into leeds to save the hassle of parking in the centre.
I said to the driver ' Do you do returns?' He said 'Are you two coming back together.' 'Yes', I said. 'Ah he said. get a 2 together day rover as thats cheaper. and you can use it to get around the centre if you want'
THATS why people like buying from a person, not a machine.
I’ve been sold the wrong ticket at a TO before resulting in an unsavoury encounter with a guard, although that situation was resolved reasonably after I explained it.

On a second occasion I was given attitude from a TO employee and incorrectly told that my ticket wasn’t valid, I would need a new one and couldn’t travel without a new ticket. I eventually got a refund (and more), but I didn’t particularly enjoy being humiliated in front of a long queue due to only one window being open at an airport station.
 

JonathanH

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It probably is obvious, but simplify fares - properly. TfL failed on that and still have a "tap in, tap out" system which implements a fare structure designed for paper tickets, and that adds lots of complexity.
How have TfL failed on simplification? I am not sure what your point is about "tap in, tap out" implementing a fare structure 'designed for paper tickets'.
 

Surreytraveller

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You only have to go into the fares dispute threads to know how unworkable this is.

My local station has a part time ticket office, and one machine (which was out of order the other day), so no way to collect (or print) any pre bought tickets.

And a mile or two either side of the station, you are lucky if you can get a mobile signal to call up and display any pre bought tickets, so having them on a device doesn’t work as a solution either.

There are 2 entrances, both of which are open ungated, day and night so anyone could walk on and get a free ride unless guard comes along to sell tickets.

So how do you protect revenue ?
Ticket printers being added to every local train maybe
Or conductors should be able to print pre-bought tickets maybe?

How have TfL failed on simplification? I am not sure what your point is about "tap in, tap out" implementing a fare structure 'designed for paper tickets'.
TfL have turned a simple zonal system into something far more complicated than it should be. How does a child from out of town buy a ticket?

Vote Labour

See Northern's franchise promise, of retaining ticket offices when well!
Because Labour's politicians are more competent than the Tory'5
 

Bletchleyite

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How have TfL failed on simplification? I am not sure what your point is about "tap in, tap out" implementing a fare structure 'designed for paper tickets'.

I'd suggest going and reading up on how the OV-Chipkaart works and how its fare structure is better suited to a tap-in tap-out system than a zonal fare structure.
 

Starmill

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How have TfL failed on simplification? I am not sure what your point is about "tap in, tap out" implementing a fare structure 'designed for paper tickets'.
To be fair they haven't failed for lack of ambition. They don't control price levels on most railways in and around the edges of London. Originally this was dealt with by means of Pay as you Go simply not being available whatsoever. Today it is dealt with by charging significantly more for services such as Southeastern Highspeed and fares to Dartford and Epsom. The only alternative would be to spend significantly more money bringing prices down to the level of the lowest, as charging more for the cheaper services is politically untenable.

Which of these three options is best? I'd say the current one is.

I'd suggest going and reading up on how the OV-Chipkaart works and how its fare structure is better suited to a tap-in tap-out system than a zonal fare structure.
Er, the Chipkart runs in a policy environment where NS controls nearly all of the prices. How's that similar to TfL?
 

Ken H

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Far more likely to get the wrong ticket from a ticket office, in my experience.

When I buy online I know exactly what I am getting.

Also for most journeys it would cost a lot more to ask at the ticket office, and I wouldn't be able to use a seat selector.
But, with respect, you are a ticketing expert - you run seminars on the subject.
But an occasional user would be confused.
 

leedslad82

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If they shut the physical space and redeploy the staff to look after the ticket machines,how does that save money? Never understood the value of a ticket machine either when you can pay in board anyway?
Kind of following the supermarkets with 1 person covering up to 20 self checkouts
 

gaillark

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There still will be a role/need for some ticket offices at major stations like in many European countries. All TVM's should be video enabled to a regional centre where staff would assist the customer by taking control virtually and selling you the right ticket. This will be important to safeguard passengers especially those who are visually impared who do actually require staff assistance and many other disabled persons. Also a video link would be helpful for other customer service enquiries such as refunds.
Closing of all retailing facilities would be madness.

There are still important issues to overcome with electronic ticketing such as ability to break of journey. This is not currently possible with electronic ticketing. If you break your journey say on oyster it will charge you for each leg of the journey rather than one continuous so this is one of the reasons why paper tickets still should be available.
Currently First Class tickets are not available so this will need to be worked out.
Also how long would a e token be valid for before it becomes expired. In London there is a maximum journey time before the system treats it as an incomplete journey therefore you get charged maximum fare. This will only work if the time limit for all journeys is removed or set for 5 days like the outward portion of an anytime return altough I guess this will come down to 24hrs.
Also major fares reform will be needed to make fares simple such as removing of dozens fare options for one journey and replacing them with one fare irrespective of operator and route taken.
 

Bletchleyite

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To be fair they haven't failed for lack of ambition. They don't control price levels on most railways in and around the edges of London. Originally this was dealt with by means of Pay as you Go simply not being available whatsoever. Today it is dealt with by charging significantly more for services such as Southeastern Highspeed and fares to Dartford and Epsom. The only alternative would be to spend significantly more money bringing prices down to the level of the lowest, as charging more for the cheaper services is politically untenable.

I was more thinking about the Tube and the "pink reader" kludge. Tap in/tap out works better with point to point unrouted fares than zonal fares.

Er, the Chipkart runs in a policy environment where NS controls nearly all of the prices. How's that similar to TfL?

NS doesn't control bus fares in the Netherlands. Indeed, the system provides explicitly for operator specific fares (albeit only kilometric ones, so regulated in a similar way to the supply of energy in the UK).

There are still important issues to overcome with electronic ticketing such as ability to break of journey. This is not currently possible with electronic ticketing. If you break your journey say on oyster it will charge you for each leg of the journey rather than one continuous so this is one of the reasons why paper tickets still should be available.

E-tickets have exactly the same terms as the same thing issued on paper, including break of journey.

It's possible to deal with break of journey on tap-in tap-out - if a through ticket with a break permitted is cheaper than individual tickets for what you did, charge that. I believe one of the TOC schemes explicitly states it does this - I think the GTR one. It's not actually a particularly hard thing to work out.
 

SynthD

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TfL are hamstrung by having to collect existing non zonal prices. DfT may, I say extremely likely, be hamstrung by having to collect the same amount of money for the Chancellor. However, at least they can smooth out the harsh jumps. Does that solve some of the tap in/out problems?
 

theageofthetra

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The Sunday Times is reporting today that:




Unfortunately, the full artice is behind a paywall.

While electronic tickets have advantages for many, railway ticketing is currently so complicated that for journeys that are not straightforward, closing all ticket offices is fraught with problems. It also relies on having a working mobile phone with the ability to display the relevant ticket when travelling, unless it is intended to have a nationwide "contactless" ticketing system with electronic card readers at every station.

Comments?
Works fine in the Netherlands, reckon there's less than 10 ticket offices in the country and most stations barriered and unstaffed at the gateline.
 

Bletchleyite

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TfL are hamstrung by having to collect existing non zonal prices.

Quite the opposite - it's actually zonal fares that are complex for tap-in tap-out. Point to point unrouted fares are far easier to implement. It's having to care about which way someone goes that adds complexity.
 

londonteacher

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How would you buy a senior railcard if there's no ticket office ? To buy online you have to have a driving licence, identity card or passport as proof of age, at ticket offices you can use a bus pass. So if you have none of these then no railcard.
Get post offices to do so?
 

Starmill

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NS doesn't control bus fares in the Netherlands. Indeed, the system provides explicitly for operator specific fares (albeit only kilometric ones, so regulated in a similar way to the supply of energy in the UK).
Sure they don't control private operators price levels but the private operators are essentially subordinates to the main rates. In London TfL have to just take whatever the other operators want the prices to be and they're forced to set their own rates around that. The political dimension is therefore completely different in the Netherlands. You're required to pay a supplement to use the high speed lines too, or to travel by ICE services. I don't get how it's customer friendly to charge a toeslag or ICE ticket but unacceptable to have Heathrow Express and pink reader prices.
 

Philip

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For instance, one way route excesses (half the difference between the routed fares) are more often than not issued wrongly, as the full difference.

Well that in itself is better than once being told that I couldn't upgrade the return route to 'any permitted' but would have to buy a brand new single.
 

Bletchleyite

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In London TfL have to just take whatever the other operators want the prices to be and they're forced to set their own rates around that.

That simply isn't true. TfL can set whatever fare structure they like for journeys within the Tube or TfL bus, which is the vast, vast majority of them.

The political dimension is therefore completely different in the Netherlands. You're required to pay a supplement to use the high speed lines too, or to travel by ICE services. I don't get how it's customer friendly to charge a toeslag or ICE ticket but unacceptable to have Heathrow Express and pink reader prices.

I do agree that charging a supplement for high speed trains that aren't really high speed is silly. In Switzerland there is, fortunately, no such nonsense that I know of.
 

JonathanH

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TfL have turned a simple zonal system into something far more complicated than it should be.

I'd suggest going and reading up on how the OV-Chipkaart works and how its fare structure is better suited to a tap-in tap-out system than a zonal fare structure.

Right, so we have one vote here for the zonal system being retained and another suggesting that the zonal system is the route of the problem.

For what it is worth, yes, the zonal system doesn't work well in all cases but there seems to be a desire to offer cheaper fares not going into London and Zone 1-centric capping. Would the balance of TfL and customer interests be maintained without the pink reader / avoid zone 1 arrangements?

There are still important issues to overcome with electronic ticketing such as ability to break of journey. This is not currently possible with electronic ticketing. If you break your journey say on oyster it will charge you for each leg of the journey rather than one continuous so this is one of the reasons why paper tickets still should be available.

Also major fares reform will be needed to make fares simple such as removing of dozens fare options for one journey and replacing them with one fare irrespective of operator and route taken.
You can't have this both ways. Fares are complex because they allow break of journey / stopping short / different options.

If they were all based on a single point to point fare with none of the options, you don't need ticket offices, you have fares reform and the simplification you are seeking.
 

Bletchleyite

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Well that in itself is better than once being told that I couldn't upgrade the return route to 'any permitted' but would have to buy a brand new single.

The fix to all of this is single-fare pricing and removal of the refund fee for walk-up tickets. Then you don't need any of that faff. If you want to come back a different way than you already bought, refund the ticket you've got and buy a new one. Easy.

Crikey, the French have had echange minute machines for almost as long as they've had TGVs. It really isn't a difficult IT problem.

Right, so we have one vote here for the zonal system being retained and another suggesting that the zonal system is the route of the problem.

For what it is worth, yes, the zonal system doesn't work well in all cases but there seems to be a desire to offer cheaper fares not going into London and Zone 1-centric capping. Would the balance of TfL and customer interests be maintained without the pink reader / avoid zone 1 arrangements?

I'm not sure either of those things are necessary in the way they were now COVID has reduced the level of loadings in central London and the Elizabeth Line has added huge amounts of capacity for some journeys.

You can't have this both ways. Fares are complex because they allow break of journey / stopping short / different options.

If they were all based on a single point to point fare with none of the options, you don't need ticket offices, you have fares reform and the simplification you are seeking.

Break of journey and stopping short aren't complexity. It's a basic expectation to be able to use what you've bought in bits or to only use part of it, and implementing it isn't hard (and is necessary anyway, because at a great many stations interchange involves passing gatelines). Not allowing it is complexity.

It might cause a few anomalies, but these don't really matter that much.
 
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